Open Discussion: How important are the minor details?

[Iffix]

This felt like the right place (forgive me if I chose poorly). This seeks open discussion and while useful at some future point, it's more of a learning exercise.

I'm personally of the impression that every story is a mystery until the reader knows all the details. The subtleties add a great deal of depth and individuality. And a single easily overlooked detail revealed at the right time can blow minds. Really though, how important are these minor details, and how do you balance the need for foreshadowing against revealing too much?



Note: With utmost respect, I may be writing an article on this subject in a future blog and may choose to quote and credit anything you're willing to share herein. (Feel free to include the expression "off the record" to mean you don't wish your words to go beyond this thread.)

[Steve]

I don't concern myself with minor details while writing the first draft, as I find it much easier during the editing stage. That's when you can really manipulate the reader with a well placed word or seemingly innocuous statement.

Readers like to try to second guess the author and are quick to jump to conclusions. If you are aware of this, even minor details can be used as literary improvised explosive devices.

[Joe]

Red herrings are fun, and a great way not just to keep the readers guessing, but to give them something that makes characters pop more. A minor detail dropped in Book 1 that comes around and explains something in Book 4 will (hopefully) make readers sit up and say, "I KNEW THAT WAS IMPORTANT!"

Gotta let your readers "win" sometimes.

[Jay]

Steve wrote: "I don't concern myself with minor details while writing the first draft, as I find it much easier during the editing stage. That's when you can really manipulate the reader with a well placed word ..."

I tend to agree. I don't much concern myself with minor details in the first draft unless they are somehow critical to the overall story. Getting the story to flow; getting the characters to come alive, and making sure all the plot points actually have a point are much more important.

Focusing on the details before you have painted the actual picture may result in a lack of focus on much larger issues.

[T.R.]

I usually throw in some details and foreshadowing as I'm writing, but once a draft is finished I'll go back and tighten them up a little more. And if I have a sequel draft done I'll go back to the first one and maybe throw in some minor foreshadowing to the next book.
For me, a lot of it is just seeing if anybody notices something I hinted at, and I like throwing in red herrings if they make sense. Plus I think it adds some level of re-readability, since it could have readers going back to the beginning after getting to the end and saying "Ohh, the ending puts that thing somebody said in a different context."

[Justin]

I suppose they can be both important and not important depending on the focus of the story and where it intends to go. I believe at times small details are necessary but not all the time because as others here have stated focus on the bigger picture may get taken away or lose substance.

[K.P.]

i have a bucket of herrings and macguffins. :3 my readers hate me ecause they skip details thinking its unimportant until it appears and they go wtf and have to scan back a few hundred pages. all these details matter in the crazy trips i pound out. i got a few blasts threatening to shove my doorstoppers in unlikely places due to my frustrating readers. i always liked books with layers of meaning...

[[deleted user]]

I've often heard it said, "The devil is in the details." Whether you're restoring an old classic car, or editing your book, it will end badly if you don't become detail-oriented. Detail is only one of the elements of writing, but it is important. Let's say that your character broke his arm in chapter one, and you never mention the cast on his arm again, nor allow for healing time
Readers will be disgusted with you.

[[deleted user]]

I also like to drop little event-bombs here and there so that when the reader runs across a mention of them later he can think, "Yeah, I remember that."

[G.G.]

I agree with Morris. You have to pay attention to what happens to your characters. Nothing like a disparity in the story to dissolve the magic and most readers will catch the glitch quickly.

On the other hand, leaving hints about something that will happen later or that would explain something that happens later is fun. They are fun to read because it's the moment when you go "Ah! That's why!" I've loved books solely on these.

I admit they are also fun to insert in our writing. So yeah, details are important.

[Micah]

Iffix wrote: "...how important are these minor details..."

[pedantic]
Oxymoron. If it's a "minor" detail, it is by its very nature unimportant. And a detail that later becomes important isn't minor.
[/pedantic]

(You can slap me now.)

Seemingly unimportant details thrown in as foreshadowing (or bait for a red herring) are great when handled correctly. They're like that hint of spice in a dish of food, imbuing it with a special flavor that is noticeable but never quite identifiable. The dish would not taste as good without it, but if it wasn't there no one would say, "You know, what this needs is a pinch of [whatever]."

If they become too important, though, if they suddenly become the single most important thing in the story, you run the risk of ruing the whole thing.

That's not to say that a seemingly innocuous piece of evidence in crime investigation which later becomes the one thing that unlocks the case is a bad thing, because it's usually one clue among many, but serves as the linchpin of putting all the clues together. No, that's fine. But if all the other evidence is rubbish and only this one formerly minor detail then takes over, it can feel like you've overplayed your hand.

So, yeah, they're really nice if they're handled well. But it's a subtle thing. And, as with so many writers' tools, one which requires balance and can adhere to no hard and fast rules.

[Iffix]

@ Micah - I shall slap myself instead. Learn something new every day. :D

Great comments all! Thanks for the advice.

[[deleted user]]

I remember reading a how-to book for writers back in the '70s or '80s, written by a well-known author. He said that if you describe in detail a musket (or a hatchet) displayed on the wall of someone's house, you'd damn well better use it in the plot before the story's over.

[Jay]

Ken wrote: "I remember reading a how-to book for writers back in the '70s or '80s, written by a well-known author. He said that if you describe in detail a musket (or a hatchet) displayed on the wall of someo..."

Good one!

[Micah]

Ken wrote: "I remember reading a how-to book for writers back in the '70s or '80s, written by a well-known author. He said that if you describe in detail a musket (or a hatchet) displayed on the wall of someo..."

All this reminds me of how I figure out "who dunnit" in mystery TV shows. I remember one episode of Poirot where Poirot, Hastings and Miss Lemon are checking the paper to see what ships are scheduled to leave, trying to figure out which one the bad guy is going to take. Miss Lemon comments on the name of a Venezuelan ship, declaring "What wonderful names they use!"

I turn to my wife and say, "that's the ship the bad guy's going to use."

"Why?" she asks.

"Why else would they have Miss Lemon say that line?"

I was correct, of course.

While writing I'll often times throw in odd little details without knowing what they might foretell. Later on I usually find some way of using it. Or, while editing I might run across something that should have been used but wasn't, then have to either take it out or add the tie-in.

[G.G.]

Ken wrote: "I remember reading a how-to book for writers back in the '70s or '80s, written by a well-known author. He said that if you describe in detail a musket (or a hatchet) displayed on the wall of someo..."

I did something like that (in book one) with a painting of a woman who appears in book two, not in book one...does that count? :/

[[deleted user]]

I was criticized by one reviewer for giving too much detail. Mine is a military sci-fi novel, and one only has to look at best sellers in this genre to know that they are usually very detailed. I have been going through all of Tom Clancy's collection lately, on book at a time, and have concluded that his books are about twice or more technically detailed than mine.

Readers are all individuals. What one reader likes will not necessarily please another. I ma mindful of Tom Clancy's "Hunt for Red October." My wife liked the movie, but she would never have liked the book, as it was very technically detailed.

[[deleted user]]

G.G. wrote: "I did something like that (in book one) with a painting of a woman who appears in book two, not in book one...does that count? :/..."

Depends on how much attention you gave it in book one.

[G.G.]

Enough for people in the room to talk about her without telling the protagonist who exactly she is. I'm just not confident readers will remember her if they read book two. :/

[C.B., Beach Body Moderator]

Anything you write can end up being foreshadowing for later. The magic is calling back to it.

Remember that unimportant vase you wrote an entire page about in book one because you were a little bit tipsy on the wine and it felt like it needed to be written about in the greatest of details? Yes, that one, the one you couldn't edit out because, dang, that was such a great description of a vase it made your eccentric artist aunt paint a picture of it for your birthday...

Bash that sucker over someone's head in book 2 and you are golden.

[G.G.]

An entire page about a vase? As nice as the description might be, I doubt anyone would read it. That would call for skimming time! :P

But yeah, they do that in soaps, TV shows, and movies. ;)

[[deleted user]]

"...skimming time."

LOL G.G. , that's a good point to bring out.

I remember years ago, where the author worked hard in a book entitled, "Cristy," and spent a whole page or more describing the autumn leaves and woods. I scanned the page after two paragraphs to pick up where the story started to progress again.

[C.B., Beach Body Moderator]

True, the intro description of the rooftops in Paris in the Hunchback of Nortre Dame was read completely - until page three, then skimmed until page 5, then skipped to page 200! It just wouldn't stop.

[[deleted user]]

Well, apparently under the KU system, skimming is good. If they skim all the way to the end you'll get a good paycheck.

[G.G.]

C.B. wrote: "True, the intro description of the rooftops in Paris in the Hunchback of Nortre Dame was read completely - until page three, then skimmed until page 5, then skipped to page 200! It just wouldn't stop."

Hmm I don't remember that but then again, I was in middle school when I read it so my taste was not exactly the same as it is today. :P

[G.G.]

Ken wrote: "Well, apparently under the KU system, skimming is good. If they skim all the way to the end you'll get a good paycheck."

LOL nice way to see it. Of course, better skimmed than not picked up at all. :P

[C.B., Beach Body Moderator]

G.G. wrote: "C.B. wrote: "True, the intro description of the rooftops in Paris in the Hunchback of Nortre Dame was read completely - until page three, then skimmed until page 5, then skipped to page 200! It jus..."

It has been a long while since I read it as well. Ironically the things I remember the most about the novel were the things that I skipped.

[C.B., Beach Body Moderator]

Ken wrote: "Well, apparently under the KU system, skimming is good. If they skim all the way to the end you'll get a good paycheck."

Good point! Time to add a 14 page description of a vase every chapter!

[C.B., Beach Body Moderator]

Foreshadowing is honestly one of my favourite things.

I love it when you can read a book over again and notice things that should have been red flags but you completely dismissed them the first time, or when you can solve the mystery before Velma does.

In my novels I flat out tell plot twists in a sneaky ways all over the place. No one has caught wise yet and everyone who re-reads them ends up hitting me with things. ^-^

I often tell the reader when foreshadowing is happening and to pay attention, or when to ignore the foreshadowing because it happens in the next book, but to take notes. I have had characters get angry when an event transpires that was foreshadowed a book before in a throw-away joking manner. I have characters that tell other characters not to really pay attention to them until book 3 because they are not really important yet. I foreshadow the punchline to a joke 100s of pages before the joke and don't care if no one notices, it makes me laugh.

Foreshadowing is amazing. I love it.

[Joe]

G.G. wrote: "Enough for people in the room to talk about her without telling the protagonist who exactly she is. I'm just not confident readers will remember her if they read book two. :/"

Ah, but the people who do will very much appreciate it. The ones who don't will read about it on a website and say "Oh yea, I totally remembered that..." ;)

[Tyler]

I love to plant minor details. Some are rabbit trails to nowhere while others create those "I should have seen that coming" moments.

[Adelaide]

On heavy-handed foreshadowing:
I write contemporary/erotic romance and I don't think foreshadowing needs to be subtle in my genre! Except maybe if it's a mystery. But otherwise, subtle as a sledgehammer is fine from my reader and author perspective! It reminds me of how I used to watch the early years of ER with my sister, and someone would put a hand on their belly or forehead or look faint or a bit green and my sister would yell at the screen, "Pregnant!" and she'd always be right. Or a teenager would come in with some injury or unplanned pregnancy and my sister would yell "Rumspringa!" She was always right, the hints were always obvious, and it never lessened our enjoyment of the show. I think some genres can get away with this more than others, just as romance authors can use well-worn tropes and so long as there's something original about the story, people won't mind. Most romance readers are there for the HEA and really just want the book to "do what it says on the tin." I agree with others about the subtler/littler hints being sometimes for my own amusement and I'm sure they pay dividends for readers who are (1) very thorough or astute, or (2) very dedicated and read the book more than once. I'm amazed when I re-read some books, just how much I missed. Harry Potter is a "comfort read" for me when I can't sleep, and I delight in picking up new details and plot-hints I missed every time.