Sci-Fi, fantasy and speculative Indie Authors Review discussion
SciFi and Fantasy Book Club and Indie bashing
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(last edited Sep 29, 2015 08:24AM)
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Sep 29, 2015 08:23AM
I don't know how many members of this group are also members of the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club, but if you're an Indie you may want to reconsider your membership. I introduced a topic about a book market (Oyster) folding, and the thread turned into an Indie-bashing fest. The bigotry was disgusting enough--I have long thought that the group might be hostile to Indies--but when one of the moderators joined in on the bashing I deleted all of my contributions to that thread, including the starting comment, and left the group. I've left other groups for the same reason, and haven't missed them.
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But you would expect the moderators to be a little more mature than to allow a thread to degenerate that way, and then join in on the degeneration. Or maybe I'm expecting too much. Either way, that group is not of much use to authors, and I don't think they're doing their readers any good, either. Buying books is like buying anything else, and whether you're looking at trad or indie, you have to give it a careful look before you buy. Some people think they're getting quality when they buy trad, even when they're not, and most just don't want to do the work that it takes to find good stuff.
I went and read the thread. It wasn't as bad as I expected. Don't take me wrong. By that I mean I have seen a lot worse. I also noticed that I hadn't checked any of their threads since May or June, so I left too. I need to narrow down my groups (I have too many) so that was perfect timing. One down half a dozen or more to go. :P
G.G. wrote: "I also noticed that I hadn't checked any of their threads since May or June, so I left too. I need to narrow down my groups (I have too many) so that was perfect timing...."
I've done the same. I belong to only 4 groups now. After nearly two years at this, I'm pretty sure none of the groups on Goodreads, or Goodreads itself, does much for book sales. Some, certainly, but it's all too time consuming. As for online reader discussions, I don't see the point. I now think the secret to selling a lot of books is to write a lot of books. Not wasting any more time on so many groups. Also thinking about leaving Twitter, Facebook, and Google+.
I've done the same. I belong to only 4 groups now. After nearly two years at this, I'm pretty sure none of the groups on Goodreads, or Goodreads itself, does much for book sales. Some, certainly, but it's all too time consuming. As for online reader discussions, I don't see the point. I now think the secret to selling a lot of books is to write a lot of books. Not wasting any more time on so many groups. Also thinking about leaving Twitter, Facebook, and Google+.
Ken wrote: "G.G. wrote: "I also noticed that I hadn't checked any of their threads since May or June, so I left too. I need to narrow down my groups (I have too many) so that was perfect timing...."I've done..."
Interesting, I was also wondering about the effectiveness for goodreads, re connecting readers with books.
What is/ Who is the average or typical goodreads user, anyway? i started looking at a lot of the discussion threads... and it seems most threads do have high number of views, and less posts.
I do know, I have been able to get some very valid feedback on my fiction book, which is what drew me back into goodreads. I have several nonfiction, and found goodreads- for them- not a great social media platform. I am only recently back with the fantasy book.
So, what are other people's experience re goodreads for exposure and audience-building?
and on the topic of indie v publisher. I have read more than my share of crap books, that have been traditionally published. AND, publishers do less and less regards to promotion, marketing, and author-development. I know with one of my nonfiction submisions... I could see that the publisher wasn't just looking for a solid book-- he/they were looking to see that the author had pretty much created a business plan... and that is fairly standard.
I have read some great indie books.. and while yes, there is a lot of garbage out there... i've reviewed (and declined) some absolutely dreadful books...
but I would like to think that should be the point and purpose of places like goodreads, and independent readers-- to offer the readers seal of approval on books. granted- readers seem to suck up garbage like 50 shades of grey, and twilight... but still...
uggh:)
Teri wrote: "So, what are other people's experience re goodreads for exposure and audience-building?......."A good group with an active and engaged membership can be a real joy. I've found people whose comment on my work have improved it.
But a lot of groups are pretty moribund, others consist largely of authors posting to authors (such groups have their uses but not for selling :-) ) and some seem to hate indies or authors or both!
Mod
That being said, I don't say anything here or in any group that can be construed as negative or inflamatory. Even in the groups I'm in that are geared toward authors, I am mindful that this is public, this is the internet, and anything we do and say can be turned against us by an angry mob.
Jim wrote: "...some seem to hate indies or authors or both!"I've definitely seen that. Can you imagine a site like GR dedicated to music where groups actively oppose actual musicians participating in the discussions? Well, I've seen groups here where there was serious discussion about banning authors from participating...at all!
SO...you love to read, but you hate authors. Uh..OK. Whatever, dude.
Christina wrote: "I don't consider Goodreads a sales tool when it comes to groups. Maintaining and updating my profile, book listings, etc, sure, I do this so that I can be easily found. But I'm here in the discussi..."Looking for the like button. :P
Well said, Christina.
I don't consider Goodreads a tool for sales either. Neither do I consider Facebook or Twitter as a matter of fact. That's why I say I don't promote. If I get sales from these places, great, but if I'd want to promote I'd do something else. I do this more to keep in contact with other people, readers maybe but authors mostly. I love the learning from one another, and sharing experience.
And I can't agree more with the second statement. Our image follows us everywhere we go and may even precede us to places we haven't yet. Whether it's on FB, Twitter, or here, we should always be careful of what we write and how we write it.
Mod
During the two years since (with a couple of tiny exceptions) I've only ever been a regularly contributing member to this one group - and what kept me here were two things: first, being among like-minded people going through the same things as yourself is wonderful for your morale; and second, between us we have a hundred pairs of eyes on the look-out for predators - like the low-life from Utah a couple of weeks ago.
Richard wrote: "During the two years since (with a couple of tiny exceptions) I've only ever been a regularly contributing member to this one group - and what kept me here were two things: first, being among like-minded people going through the same things as yourself is wonderful for your morale; and second, between us we have a hundred pairs of eyes on the look-out for predators - like the low-life from Utah a couple of weeks ago. ..."This is one of the good groups. I confess I don't contribute as often as I ought to
I do GR to get some air, not for sales or promos.When your main conversation five days a week is with someone less than two years old, you either interact with adults time to time or go sane. And where would the characters I write about be if I went sane.
Now back to cooking the zombie chicken, or was it a freetail bat?
Mod
What Richard neglected to tell you is that several dozen of those eyes are his! ;)
Mod
When your main conversation five days a week is with someone less than two years old, you either interact with adults time to time or go sane. And..."
Exactly! I spend the majority of my day with my four legged children and you just don't get a lot of office banter when you work alone.
Just wanted to pop in to say that I'm glad I found this group--I'm finding that the Interwebs can be a real vicious bastard for Indie authors!Good on y'all for maintaining a peaceful little corner where we can stop, rest, and gather our strength for the next push :)
I'll join in the chorus. GR is a great place to get moral support and practical advice from other authors. I might have got a few sales from it, but not a significant amount. Blurb and art feedback has been very useful, and the scam-spotting is a lot of fun, but the main thing is hanging out. I honestly think I would have given up writing without GR.I use Twitter (at the suggestion of someone here, I think) and I think there may be some sales arising from that. However, the main thing it's good for is research, following the space industry. It has become a major source of entertainment for me, outside of writing. Probably Twitter's main impact on my books is to distract me, making it less likely I'll finish the present one.
Facebook is great for keeping up with relative's children's friend's cats.
Relatives' children's friends' cats? This example belongs in a book on punctuation.
Christina wrote: "Richard wrote: "and second, between us we have a hundred pairs of eyes on the look-out for predators -"
What Richard neglected to tell you is that several dozen of those eyes are his! ;)"
The man with a dozen eyes. Sounds like a great title for a story in just about any genre you can name.
What Richard neglected to tell you is that several dozen of those eyes are his! ;)"
The man with a dozen eyes. Sounds like a great title for a story in just about any genre you can name.
I like goodreads because I've met a lot of intersting people here who like to talk about books and writing. To me it is mostly a social site, and even when I'll finally get around to publish anything in English I don't think being here will help that much with sales. But it is the site I visit most often when I'm online and I can't see that changing any time soon.
Hmm, The Man with the Dozen Eyes, sounds like a fifties sci fi flick doesn't it?
Yes, it would be relatives' children's friends' cats.A comedy routine could probably be done with incorrectly placed apostrophes or an argument between just using an apostrophe or using an apostrophe plus an s for words ending in s.
I avoid FacePain since I really don't need the aggravation.
Hákon wrote: "Hmm, The Man with the Dozen Eyes, sounds like a fifties sci fi flick doesn't it?"
Yes, or an existential literary work. Or a Beatles song.
Yes, or an existential literary work. Or a Beatles song.
Mod
Richard wrote: "After some bad experiences early on, I pretty quickly came to the conclusion that GR (also Facebook, Twitter, etc) is a complete waste of time as far as book promo goes - a view, I'm afraid, which ..."Damn, I missed the lowlife from Utah. This is what happens when you stay off the internet.
P.S. this group is the only one I enjoy attending to, thanks to its curious collection of people.
Micah wrote: "Jim wrote: "...some seem to hate indies or authors or both!"I've definitely seen that. Can you imagine a site like GR dedicated to music where groups actively oppose actual musicians participatin..."
Interesting you mentioned musicians, because I instantly think of them looking through this thread. Musicians have gone the indie route years before authors. You can find bars anywhere with live musicians. Acts might play a park or a shopping mall or anywhere else they can get even a small audience. And after their set, they try to sell self-pressed CDs to get their music out beyond that lonely venue. Like you see "publishers" who try to capitalize off indie authors, you've had indie record labels pop up trying to make money by getting some of these acts more exposure. I'm sure every place in this country has local acts that have become popular in their neck of the woods while being unknown everywhere else, so it's a little disappointing to see indie authors disparaged as a whole without any regard to individual talent.
Part of the reason indies are collectively disparaged regardless of individuals' talent is due to insecurity.Think about it, people who've gone along with the same old same old for years see the system they supported changing due to a variety of factors. Many people don't like change.
The reality is TP had a long-term unsustainable business model, exacerbated by acquisition editors who selected based on their own subjective personal tastes. Authors got in the habit of writing only what they thought the editors wanted to avoid rejections. Readers got complacent far too often.
Then the SP revolution hit just as publishing was having to make cuts due to the economy. True, a lot of schlock hit the market, but so did some amazing new talent.
The people who disparage indies don't and probably won't realize that the percentage of lousy indie authors is basically the same as the percentage of would-be or actual trad authors. The percentage of good indie authors who self-publish is probably higher than the number of good trad authors who get published, because they cater to readers rather than editors.
The people moaning about how indies will destroy literature are equivalent to the people who moaned about antibiotics, electricity, fire, or anything newfangled at the time. Given time, the detractors will have something else to whine about.
Mod
Richard wrote: "After some bad experiences early on, I pretty quickly came to the conclusion that GR (also Facebook, Twitter, etc) is a complete waste of time as far as book promo goes - a view, I'm afraid, which ..."You're one of many authors that says fakebook and twitter are a waste of time. Also those social media net works can kill your book.
Ken wrote: "I don't know how many members of this group are also members of the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club, but if you're an Indie you may want to reconsider your membership. I introduced a topic about a boo..."Honestly I see it as jealousy runs deep in published authors vs Independent Authors and here are some reasons.
1. 'freedom' Independent writers can do anything with their work and still get into the hands of people that want something new to read
2. Royalty's ( from my research) Independent royalties are higher than typical published writers.
3. Happiness: Yup happiness when the published crowed see independent writers happy that they're making money, off of something they love. Jealousy then they love to hate independent writers. I don't have my book on the market yet, but I am prepared for the hate that may come way.
Thanks to people in this group sharing their experiences and wisdom I will be okay. Just keeping on speaking the truth.
Ken wrote: "I don't know how many members of this group are also members of the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club, but if you're an Indie you may want to reconsider your membership. I introduced a topic about a boo..."Honestly I see it as jealousy runs deep in published authors vs Independent Authors and here are some reasons.
1. 'freedom' Independent writers can do anything with their work and still get into the hands of people that want something new to read
2. Royalty's ( from my research) Independent royalties are higher than typical published writers.
3. Happiness: Yup happiness when the published crowed see independent writers happy that they're making money, off of something they love. Jealousy then they love to hate independent writers. I don't have my book on the market yet, but I am prepared for the hate that may come way.
Thanks to people in this group sharing their experiences and wisdom I will be okay. Just keeping on speaking the truth.
not sure if its a jealousy... just more of old-boys kind of elitist insiders snootiness (not the best word:)..like-- WE earned our way into the club... WE worked our asses off to get published...
YOU... didn't earn the right to get published, passing the benchmarks of those ivory-hallowed towers...
now, personally-- if publishers were developing new talent, if publishers were pulling more from the midstacks... taking chances on new innovative stories... I'd consider it. And, i still have not ruled out popping my manuscript over to DAW (anyone have inside info on them as publishers?.. Ive had the sense that that IS one of the few that still adheres to old quality standards, and WILL take a chance on new talent...)... although I could be wrong. on the other hand... I do like the autonomy of choosing what i think works... and that, combined with input from authors here and on amazon... I've gotten some really expert feedback and input...:)
:)
i wouldnt know what to tell you Teri. i've sent countless mss to Tor Daw Baen and many others. I had them edited before sending and an alternate number to act as agent for some houses that wanted agents. still got autoform rejections. the only one who actually sent a personalised rejection was Penguin which i framed. i gave up after 600. the one i hate is harper collins. i don't know who edits the books over there but lately i've picked up some horrific ones. i had better chances with some indies i found on here
@teri - just remembered a tip. to get noticed you must adhere to the house style of that publisher and write in those strict tropes established in that genre for them to notice. don't deviate too far but enough to be different from the last release. i got picked up by ace and rejected the contract because i hated the story. i am not a strict genre writer and i refused to hammer out such cookie cutter stories to pay the rent. it only took me 4 weeks to do as a bet to show i had the skill and i hated every step.
K.P. wrote: "@teri - just remembered a tip. to get noticed you must adhere to the house style of that publisher and write in those strict tropes established in that genre for them to notice. don't deviate too f..."so it's the corporate trope: if you want to get promoted, dress like the CEO...?
in book terms.. if you want TOR to publish your work- make your work a TOR-clone or TOR-ready/friendy.. ditto re any other publishing house...?
and I agree that there are a lot of books professionally published, that appear to have been proofread by someone who is clearly not a literature-person/writer/editor...?
and I hear you re the mixed-genre dilemma... I am having that issue myself right now with Cafe of the hungry ghosts... I know it's a decent story ... but.. it's not picking up, re finding audience.. because it isn't a clear fantasy, or paranormal, or YA, or... etc... pulling my hair out on this one and definitely feeling discouraged.. reviews have been almost completely supportive.. those that weren't started with... this wasn't what i was expecting, but i liked it.... ugh!
:)
off-topic..are there any threads or forums to get input on covers?
Mod
Mod
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Teri,I've had people who are or were connected with Trad Publishing tell me I've got the talent to go that route, and they wondered why I hadn't. In part it goes to why some TP authors hate Indies.
1) As stated by many you have to stick fairly close to a TP house's genre / guidelines, as well as the acquisition editors personal taste.
2) You have to be incredibly persistent while accepting a ton of rejections. This part is why many TP authors hate Indies most, because good Indie authors didn't 'pay their dues by running the rejection gauntlet'. (I've had a few rejection letters myself and decided it was less heart-attack risk to just do it myself.)
3) The big TP houses are reluctant to accept change, until change is about to send them off to vacation with most of the denizens from the Cretaceous (and earlier).
4) According to some, Self and Indie Publishing is just a fad, kind of like electricity and indoor plumbing were once fads soon to be forgotten as wastes of money.
As for shovels and compasses, I have both.
@teri - yeah unfortunately dealing with TP's is like suiting up like a ceo and waxing on the HR's ego with talking points about the company. sucks but it's the biz -_-
You have to be incredibly persistent while accepting a ton of rejections. This part is why many TP authors hate Indies most, because good Indie authors didn't 'pay their dues by running the rejection gauntlet.That probably makes the most sense for an explanation.
I guess they miss the fact that the indie route has it's own rejection system.
K.P. wrote: "@teri - yeah unfortunately dealing with TP's is like suiting up like a ceo and waxing on the HR's ego with talking points about the company. sucks but it's the biz -_-"sounds like you've gone that route...?
@teri - i have. i don't know if things have changed since i last tried that rigamarole (its been a decade after all) and the smarmy articles I've lately come across by TP editors agents and authors make me think otherwise. don't give up! lately these goofy new bloods scour the net for easy work and might cone across your stuff.
K.P.,Last time I did a submission was about two years ago, at the urging of someone who is trad published.
My manuscript ran afoul of the intern (probably hungover) screening the slush pile for the acquisition editor.
J.J. wrote: "...You can find bars anywhere with live musicians. Acts might play a park or a shopping mall or anywhere else they can get even a small audience. And after their set, they try to sell self-pressed CDs to get their music out beyond that lonely venue..."And have you ever heard people scoff at these musicians and tell the musicians "What do you mean you didn't pay a professional producer? You can't edit your own work, dude. EVERYONE knows that!"???
I doubt that ever came up.
Micah wrote: "J.J. wrote: "...You can find bars anywhere with live musicians. Acts might play a park or a shopping mall or anywhere else they can get even a small audience. And after their set, they try to sell ..."Even from a lot of the famous groups, I've downloaded and enjoyed live performances because there is something more genuine in the raw, unpolished performance that you don't get in their studio efforts most of the time.
It's kind of strange why indie music is considered cool, while indie writing and publishing is considered lazy. Maybe it is because indie music has been accessible for a longer time and has at some point been through what the indie writing is going through now. Still I don't think it is that. Almost thirty years ago, when some of my friends were starting to make music, recording it, and then selling it on tapes they did at home, I can't remember anyone complaining about the lack of production quality.
So I really don't know why some people get into such a state over indie writers.
Hákon wrote: "It's kind of strange why indie music is considered cool, while indie writing and publishing is considered lazy. Maybe it is because indie music has been accessible for a longer time and has at some..."
I think it's because anybody can be an indie "writer," but not just anybody can play music well enough to draw a crowd. Or make the investment in instruments. Therefore, you have millions of indie writers and only hundreds (well, maybe thousands) of indie musicians. Whether we like it or not, there's just too many bad offerings by indie writers because it's so easy to publish. On the other hand, there is very little I would change about it.
I think it's because anybody can be an indie "writer," but not just anybody can play music well enough to draw a crowd. Or make the investment in instruments. Therefore, you have millions of indie writers and only hundreds (well, maybe thousands) of indie musicians. Whether we like it or not, there's just too many bad offerings by indie writers because it's so easy to publish. On the other hand, there is very little I would change about it.
