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Background information - links about GH's historical world
Jenny wrote: "Has anyone ever fancied 'driving to an inch' or 'tandem'? Here's a video of someone doing it, from the driver's point of view: Sandringham Obstacle Course"now, that was cool!
Just downloaded free from Project Gutenberg the Reminiscences of Captain Gronow. http://www.gutenberg.org/e.books/3798
It's a series of vignettes about life and people in the years 1813 to 1830, roughly. Have been dipping in and out of it and can see how accurate GH was with her historical details and yet how lightly she wove them into her stories. Fascinating!
Gronow is fascinating, but his memoirs do have to be taken with a grain of salt as he was writing them decades after the event, and sometimes his memories--shall we say slipped a little? :) So as GH was using him as a background reference, she's only reflecting what he said, discrepancies and all.
Marissa wrote: "Gronow is fascinating, but his memoirs do have to be taken with a grain of salt as he was writing them decades after the event, and sometimes his memories--shall we say slipped a little? :) So as G..."Yes, Marissa; I tend to read all memoirs with a healthy dose of scepticism :-) We can't know how accurate might be his recollections of events, but the little sketches of people, places, and social customs are wonderful, even if - or maybe because - they are subjective.
Jackie wrote: "the link doesn't work :-("See if this works Jackie (I've never used Gutenberg)
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3798
Not a link but a question, pertaining to other writers as well as GH: Is there any discernible rule as to when aunts and uncles were addressed by their first names and when by their last? I remember that Sophy calls the Ombersleys Aunt Elizabeth and Uncle Bernard, but it seems to me that Fanny says "Aunt Abby" and "Aunt Selina," if she calls them Aunt at all. (My copy is a on a shelf in the garage.) Maybe others in the group can think of other examples. In Jane Austen, however, there's "Aunt Norris," the widowed older sister of Lady Bertram and Mrs. Price. But do we even know what Fanny Price calls Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram, or what the Bennet girls call Mr. and Mrs. Gardner?
Probably the best-known example of an aunt known by her last name is Jane Eyre's "Aunt Reed," the widow of Jane's maternal uncle. Although Mrs. Norris is the only member of her family to have that last name, it's possible that Jane Eyre's mother (nee Reed) could have more than one brother, so that "Aunt Reed" wouldn't have distinguished the wife of one from that of another. Then in the same book, St. John Rivers, reading a letter, informs his sisters that their mother's brother, "Uncle John," is dead. (In this case, of course, for St. John to have called his uncle by his last name would have revealed something Charlotte Bronte wasn't quite ready to reveal.)
So what, if anything, was the criterion?
I think in Fanny Price’s case, she was viewed as an inferior (and living in a very formal household), so surnames would have been expected—but now I think of it, Elizabeth Bennet refers to her aunt as “Aunt Gardiner,” and their relationship was very cordial and more or less between two adults. Probably Georgette Heyer is reflecting a more modern sensibility in using Christian names, and the greater tendency during the early nineteenth century would be to use the surname.
That sounds reasonable, Abigail. And maybe unmarried aunts, especially, would have been called Aunt First Name? Now I'm thinking of Emma--doesn't Mr. Knightly refer to Emma as the children's "Aunt Emma"? Of course, she was expected to have a new surname sooner or later, and since it turned out to be the same as theirs, it would have been rather confusing for John and Isabella's children to call her and Mr. Knightly "Aunt and Uncle Knightly"--and vice versa!Then, maybe Jane Eyre represents a transitional stage?
It still seems a little murky! Any more input?
I think that there wasn't a hard rule bout it, some families used the surname and others didnt'. But I think that JA's time (which is roughly Heyers) was when there was a growing informality about what parents were called or what a married couple called each other. The Bennets are "mr and Mrs Bennet" to each other, but (for example) Mr Weston calls his wife Anne and Ad Croft calls his wife Sophy.... (thogh she calls HIM "my dear Admiral).. and the younger generation like John and Isabella Knightly both use first names and so do Charles and Mary Musgrove. And Mr Woodhouse is "papa" to Emma, not Father or Sir....
For the most part, I would not like having to wear the uncomfortable clothes of the Regency (or most any time expensive clothes were used to show off how wealthy people are).But high waisted pants (and dresses) would be more comfortable than low waisted pants.
I'm glad I live in a time when clothing is less emphasized, and the owner of a business often wears more comfortable clothes than the doorman or receptionist.
Mod
I wonder if it isn't more a question of age? Perhaps a middle-aged aunt was more likely to be referred to as 'Aunt Surname'? But I think it depend a bit on the family custom, as Nadine says.
I do remember being surprised by Aunt Norris always referring to Maria as 'Mrs Rushworth' after her marriage, but of course she had her own reasons for drawing attention to the grandness of the connection her efforts had brought about. But then, both she and Lady B refer to their own sister as 'my sister Price' when they must have grown up calling her Frances or Fanny.
I always referred my aunts and uncles as well as my parents' friends by their first names. My great aunts and uncles got the honorific! These of course were born before the 20th century!
I kind of like what they do in the American South, calling someone Miss Georgette. It's not what I've come across in real life though. (It would be Miss Heyer).
I was called Miss Kim by my fellow volunteers when I worked for Obama in Pittsburgh, it was a mostly African-American neighborhood.
I've always been fascinated by the idea of having to buy your promotion in the military. More here;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchas...
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "I've always been fascinated by the idea of having to buy your promotion in the military. More here;https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchas..."
Thanks Carol.
I was often perplexed by mentions of buying/selling commissions.
Last year somebody had a link to an article which explained how it actually was useful to buy and sell commissions.
Howard wrote: "Last year somebody had a link to an article which explained how it actually was useful to buy and sell commissions."If you remember where Howard, let me know & I'll post a link. :)
@ Andrea - same here. & that the navy didn't do this.
Apropos of a discussion about Anthea making a reticule of cardboard in The Unknown Ajax, here is the link to a blog post I wrote on "fancy work", basically crafts back in the day before A.C. Moore and Hobby Lobby. :) Includes a print and article from an 1810 edition of Ackermann's Repository:http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2016...
Also, images of reticules from Ackermann's Repository and a few other magazines of the era:Part 1: images from 1810-1814: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015...
Part 2: Images from 1815-1828: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015...
Marissa wrote: "Also, images of reticules from Ackermann's Repository and a few other magazines of the era:60 views
Really Useful Stuff > Background information - links about GH's historical world
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message 51: by Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕, Madam Mod Jul 11, 2016 04:36PM
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ | 1906 comments
Mod
& explanations of "clocks" on stockings. (both found by Carol)
http://lesleyannemcleod.blogspot.co.n...
http://www.marquise.de/en/1700/howto/...
reply | flag *
message 52: by Jackie Nov 21, 2016 07:47PM
Jackie | 270 commentsJenny wrote: "Has anyone ever fancied 'driving to an inch' or 'tandem'? Here's a video of someone doing it, from the driver's point of view: Sandringham Obstacle Course"
now, that was cool!
reply | flag *
message 53: by Anjali Dec 04, 2016 12:18AM
Anjali (Anjals) | 6 comments Just downloaded free from Project Gutenberg the Reminiscences of Captain Gronow.
http://www.gutenberg.org/e.books/3798
It's a series of vignettes about life and people in the years 1813 to 1830, roughly. Have been dipping in and out of it and can see how accurate GH was with her historical details and yet how lightly she wove them into her stories. Fascinating!
reply | flag *
message 54: by Marissa (last edited Dec 04, 2016 06:57AM) Dec 04, 2016 06:56AM
Marissa Doyle | 97 comments Gronow is fascinating, but his memoirs do have to be taken with a grain of salt as he was writing them decades after the event, and sometimes his memories--shall we say slipped a little? :) So as GH was using him as a background reference, she's only reflecting what he said, discrepancies and all.
reply | flag *
message 55: by Anjali Dec 04, 2016 08:23AM
Anjali (Anjals) | 6 commentsMarissa wrote: "Gronow is fascinating, but his memoirs do have to be taken with a grain of salt as he was writing them decades after the event, and sometimes his memories--shall we say slipped a little? :) So as G..."
Yes, Marissa; I tend to read all memoirs with a healthy dose of scepticism :-) We can't know how accurate might be his recollections of events, but the little sketches of people, places, and social customs are wonderful, even if - or maybe because - they are subjective.
reply | flag *
message 56: by Jackie Dec 16, 2016 09:03AM
Jackie | 270 comments the link doesn't work :-(
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message 57: by Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕, Madam Mod Dec 16, 2016 10:33AM
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ | 1906 comments
Mod
Jackie wrote: "the link doesn't work :-("
See if this works Jackie (I've never used Gutenberg)
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/3798
reply | flag *
message 58: by Jackie Dec 16, 2016 02:58PM
Jackie | 270 comments worked!
reply | flag *
message 59: by MaryC Dec 25, 2016 09:26PM
MaryC Clawsey | 401 comments Not a link but a question, pertaining to other writers as well as GH: Is there any discernible rule as to when aunts and uncles were addressed by their first names and when by their last? I remember that Sophy calls the Ombersleys Aunt Elizabeth and Uncle Bernard, but it seems to me that Fanny says "Aunt Abby" and "Aunt Selina," if she calls them Aunt at all. (My copy is a on a shelf in the garage.) Maybe others in the group can think of other examples.
In Jane Austen, however, there's "Aunt Norris," the widowed older sister of Lady Bertram and Mrs. Price. But do we even know what Fanny Price calls Sir Thomas and Lady Bertram, or what the Bennet girls call Mr. and Mrs. Gardner?
Probably the best-known example of an aunt known by her last name is Jane Eyre's "Aunt Reed," the widow of Jane's maternal uncle. Although Mrs. Norris is the only member of her family to have that last name, it's possible that Jane Eyre's mother (nee Reed) could have more than one brother, so that "Aunt Reed" wouldn't have distinguished the wife of one from that of another. Then in the same book, St. John Rivers, reading a letter, informs his sisters that their mother's brother, "Uncle John," is dead. (In this case, of course, for St. John to have called his uncle by his last name would have revealed something Charlotte Bronte wasn't quite ready to reveal.)
So what, if anything, was the criterion?
reply | flag *
message 60: by Abigail Dec 26, 2016 09:21AM
Abigail Bok (Regency_Reader) | 421 comments I think in Fanny Price’s case, she was viewed as an inferior (and living in a very formal household), so surnames would have been expected—but now I think of it, Elizabeth Bennet refers to her aunt as “Aunt Gardiner,” and their relationship was very cordial and more or less between two adults.
Probably Georgette Heyer is reflecting a more modern sensibility in using Christian names, and the greater tendency during the early nineteenth century would be to use the surname.
reply | flag *
message 61: by MaryC Dec 26, 2016 12:16PM
MaryC Clawsey | 401 comments That sounds reasonable, Abigail. And maybe unmarried aunts, especially, would have been called Aunt First Name? Now I'm thinking of Emma--doesn't Mr. Knightly refer to Emma as the children's "Aunt Emma"? Of course, she was expected to have a new surname sooner or later, and since it turned out to be the same as theirs, it would have been rather confusing for John and Isabella's children to call her and Mr. Knightly "Aunt and Uncle Knightly"--and vice versa!
Then, maybe Jane Eyre represents a transitional stage?
It still seems a little murky! Any more input?
reply | flag *
message 62: by Nadine Dec 27, 2016 06:04AM
Nadine Sutton | 11 comments I think that there wasn't a hard rule bout it, some families used the surname and others didnt'. But I think that JA's time (which is roughly Heyers) was when there was a growing informality about what parents were called or what a married couple called each other. The Bennets are "mr and Mrs Bennet" to each other, but (for example) Mr Weston calls his wife Anne and Ad Croft calls his wife Sophy.... (thogh she calls HIM "my dear Admiral).. and the younger generation like John and Isabella Knightly both use first names and so do Charles and Mary Musgrove. And Mr Woodhouse is "papa" to Emma, not Father or Sir....
reply | flag *
message 63: by Howard Jan 20, 2017 09:55AM
Howard Brazee | 312 comments For the most part, I would not like having to wear the uncomfortable clothes of the Regency (or most any time expensive clothes were used to show off how wealthy people are).
But high waisted pants (and dresses) would be more comfortable than low waisted pants.
I'm glad I live in a time when clothing is less emphasized, and the owner of a business often wears more comfortable clothes than the doorman or receptionist.
reply | edit | delete | flag *
message 64: by Jenny (last edited Feb 05, 2017 05:46PM) Feb 05, 2017 05:43PM
Jenny (Jenny_Norwich) | 265 commentsMaryC wrote: "That sounds reasonable, Abigail. And maybe unmarried aunts, especially, would have been called Aunt First Name? Now I'm thinking of Emma--doesn't Mr. Knightly refer to Emma as the children's "Aunt ..."
I wonder if it isn't more a question of age? Perhaps a middle-aged aunt was more likely to be referred to as 'Aunt Surname'? But I think it depend a bit on the family custom, as Nadine says.
I do remember being surprised by Aunt Norris always referring to Maria as 'Mrs Rushworth' after her marriage, but of course she had her own reasons for drawing attention to the grandness of the connection her efforts had brought about. But then, both she and Lady B refer to their own sister as 'my sister Price' when they must have grown up calling her Frances or Fanny.
reply | flag *
message 65: by Jacquie Feb 06, 2017 11:56AM
Jacquie Scuitto | 229 comments I always referred my aunts and uncles as well as my parents' friends by their first names. My great aunts and uncles got the honorific! These of course were born before the 20th century!
reply | flag *
message 66: by Howard Feb 06, 2017 12:14PM
Howard Brazee | 312 comments I kind of like what they do in the American South, calling someone Miss Georgette. It's not what I've come across in real life though. (It would be Miss Heyer).
reply | edit | delete | flag *
message 67: by Kim Feb 06, 2017 02:59PM
Kim Kaso | 325 comments I was called Miss Kim by my fellow volunteers when I worked for Obama in Pittsburgh, it was a mostly African-American neighborhood.
reply | flag *
message 68: by Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕, Madam Mod Mar 12, 2017 11:56AM
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ | 1906 comments
Mod
I've always been fascinated by the idea of having to buy your promotion in the military. More here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchas...
reply | flag *
message 69: by Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder Mar 12, 2017 12:19PM
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder (CatsosPerson) | 787 commentsCarol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "I've always been fascinated by the idea of having to buy your promotion in the military. More here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purchas..."
Thanks Carol.
I was often perplexed by mentions of buying/selling commissions.
reply | flag *
message 70: by Howard Mar 12, 2017 12:44PM
Howard Brazee | 312 comments Last year somebody had a link to an article which explained how it actually was useful to buy and sell commissions.
reply | edit | delete | flag *
message 71: by Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕, Madam Mod Mar 12, 2017 12:49PM
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ | 1906 comments
Mod
Howard wrote: "Last year somebody had a link to an article which explained how it actually was useful to buy and sell commissions."
If you remember where Howard, let me know & I'll post a link. :)
@ Andrea - same here. & that the navy didn't do this.
reply | flag *
message 72: by Marissa (last edited 12 minutes ago) (new) 14 minutes ago
Marissa Doyle | 97 comments Apropos of a discussion about Anthea making a reticule of cardboard in The Unknown Ajax, here is the link to a blog post I wrote on "fancy work", basically crafts back in the day before A.C. Moore and Hobby Lobby. :) Includes a print and article from an 1810 edition of Ackermann's Repository:
http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2016...
reply | flag *
message 73: by Marissa (new) 4 minutes ago
Marissa Doyle | 97 comments Also, images of reticules from Ackermann's Repository and a few other magazines of the era:
Part 1: images from 1810-1814: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015...
Part 2: Images from 1815-1828: http://nineteenteen.blogspot.com/2015... "
Tiny!
About the wool textile industry as mentioned in The Unknown Ajaxhttps://familysearch.org/photos/artif...
land management and romance in The Unknown Ajax
http://www.tor.com/2013/09/24/land-ma...
other interesting articles
http://www.tor.com/tag/georgette-heyer/
Mod
Dressing up a regency lady - https://youtu.be/f9KLLbHyc4U
A brief demo on how to put on a Regency brassiere - https://youtu.be/eE8OZddK_uk
I find this channel very interesting, there are dressing from other historical period too.
Mela wrote: "Here two movies on priorattire channel on youtube:Dressing up a regency lady - https://youtu.be/f9KLLbHyc4U
A brief demo on how to put on a Regency brassiere - https://youtu.be/eE8OZddK_uk
I fin..."
Thanks! Those videos are very interesting, and the brassiere looks comfortable!
The documentary "Dancing Cheek to Cheek: with Dr. Lucy Worsley and Len Goodman Episode 1 middle to end - The Georgian period. Len Goodman discovers why men minced and he and Lucy learn to dance the minuet.
Episode 2 starts with a visit to St. James' and discussion of Almacks! Lucy learns to dance the waltz in the very next scene. The Regency waltz was very different from the later waltzes.
https://youtu.be/7UJQCtTZm-8
The episodes are available on YouTube for those of us who don't get BBC in our countries.
Mod
Episode 1 middle to end - The Georgian period. Len Goodman discovers why men minced and he and Lucy learn to dance th..."
I love Lucy Worsley's documentaries. I haven't seen this one yet! Thank you.
Mela wrote: "I love Lucy Worsley's documentaries. I haven't seen this one yet! Thank you."Me too. :D
This looks like so much fun - I have dancers in my family, and Len Goodman is always good for a laugh (and Strictly Ballroom has always been one of our favorite movies).
I've been binge watching Lucy Worsley documentaries on YouTube. Her "Behind Closed Doors" is also very interesting and relevant to Georgette Heyer's Georgian world. Then she has one just on Jane Austen's homes where she provides access to places the public can't usually go. There's some great BBC documentaries and TV programs on YouTube.
More on the waltz from the Jane Austen Centre
Ooooh, some good reading for me today!
Thanks Pooh Bear, I've watched Lucy Worsley's documentaries on local pbs, good to know I can catch her on YouTube as well - I love her sense of humor!
Brilliant. I've watched quite a few docs by Lucy on tv. Good to know they're on Youtube. Have any of you read her new book on Jane Austen? It's a great read.
Teresa wrote: "Brilliant. I've watched quite a few docs by Lucy on tv. Good to know they're on Youtube. Have any of you read her new book on Jane Austen? It's a great read."Thanks for reminding me about that book, I'd like to read it!
Mela wrote: "Here two movies on priorattire channel on youtube:Dressing up a regency lady - https://youtu.be/f9KLLbHyc4U
A brief demo on how to put on a Regency brassiere - https://youtu.be/eE8OZddK_uk
I fin..."
Just watched the first one. Even in Regency times (as opposed to Tudor or Victorian) you can see why a lady's maid was necessary.
I haven't read her book on Jane Austen yet but it's on my wish list!
Mod
Yes ;-)
Mod
Mod
Thanks, Mela, I've watched several Lucy documentaries on UNC-TV (NC PBS) and enjoyed them immensely. She's so much fun, a historian I'd love to have lunch with, I think- smart with a great sense of humor!
Mela wrote: "And I have found it now on youtube: THE ULTIMATE FASHION HISTORY: The Regency & Empire Era. It looks interesting."Thank you! I haven't seen this one yet! I can't wait to start watching it tomorrow.
Information about banns & marriage licences. (found by Carol)http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~awoodley...
THanks Carol!Very interesting!
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "THanks Carol!Very interesting!"
Thanks. I found a more attractive website with the same information a couple of days ago, but blowed if I could find it when I checked again. I'll have to have a hunt through my history.
Carol Clouds ꧁꧂ wrote: "Information about banns & marriage licences. (found by Carol)http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~awoodley..."
Thanks, Carol - I’ve learned so much in this group!
Thanks mela for the video. I now can picture a pellises and ‘stays’. I love it at time mark 14 minutes when she said the neoclassical style was ‘better than all that rococo crap!’
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