Faust Week 7 - Part 2 Act 4

[Everyman]

For discussion of this act.

I hope to be back within a week, as things seem to be resolving. Sorry again for life interfering.

[Wendel]

This act was the last to be written, as a container for some leftovers and to connect acts 3 and 5. It feels a bit patchy.

The first scene, describes the trip back home. High in the Alps Faust studies the clouds (meteorology was also one of Goethe’s major interests). Eventually he discerns a Helena cloud and a Gretchen cloud, expressing two different female principles - something I certainly would not have noticed without external comments. After another discussion of vulcanism (Meph) and evolution (Faust) we reach the second scene, the emperor’s battle.

We should probably not deny Goethe at least one great battle scene, and somehow it does fit. But I must admit that I skipped some parts of it (no maps!). In the last scene, the 'division of the spoils', Faust receives the seashore he plans to develop - but almost as an aside, I almost missed it. Interesting in this scene is Goethe’s radical and bitter criticism of state and church. He may have been a conservative, but he certainly was not blind.

[Ashley]

Let's talk about Euphorion for a minute. But first, I'd like to look back to what Mephisto (disguised as Faust) wrote in the student's yearbook earlier. Written in Latin and translated by the Norton critical edition as: "You will be like God, knowing good and evil" (Gen. 3.5), the words the serpent spoke to Eve in the garden of Eden are certainly appropriate for Mephisto to inscribe, but he might not be far from the point. If part of Faust's journey is to be like god, he must know both good and evil. Hey, just look at Gretchen.

Euphirion's problem is that he tried to be godlike without experiencing both good AND evil. There are two theories of evolution in Faust. (And please remember, I am struggling along here)One involves water, the other involves fire, rocks and chaos. Euphirion tries to leap into the clouds (aqueous) without setting foot on rocky terrain, resulting in his Icaran downfall. I think.

[Wendel]

Your comment on Euphorion belongs in the previous thread, Ashley. It seems to me though that Eu.'s problem is 'just' old fashioned hybris. Goethe/Faust is walking a thin line between hybris and the devine spark - if there is a line at all.

Concerning Good & Bad: Goethe was not a Christian (I would classify him as a Holist), nor does Faust appear to be one. But I understand Goethe much appreciated Christian ethics. Unlike Nietzsche? Interesting questions, but they take me far out of my comfort zone.

[Clarissa]

Wendel wrote: "Your comment on Euphorion belongs in the previous thread, Ashley. It seems to me though that Eu.'s problem is 'just' old fashioned hybris. Goethe/Faust is walking a thin line between hybris and the..."

I got the impression that Goethe believed in a Christian style God, but did not believe in the Christian church, have I got it the wrong way round?!

[Wendel]

Goethe mocks the Church scrambling to receive its share from the spoils of war. But he was also a conservative statesmen, and as such is likely to have appreciated the importance of the Church in socializing the common man.

Traditional religion had little meaning in his private life. It has been said that he was not anti-Christian, but un-Christian. As I understand it, most Christian values were absorbed in his holistic belief in Nature.