WE ARE OPEN - WEEK ONE - PRESIDENTIAL SERIES: ONE MAN AGAINST THE WORLD - October 19th - October 25th - Author's Note and Chapter(s) One - Four - (1 - 42) - No Spoilers, please

[Kressel]

What was the other book you folks read with Weiner?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

both by by Tim Weiner

Oddly enough we had done Legacy before Tim joined us for the first time and Enemies when he did. This will be the third Weiner book we have discussed. It just happened that way. We did not have any connection at all when we did Legacy - it had just won Pulitzer from what I recall (of course it is hard remembering that far back). The FBI book was an offering from Random House I believe.

[Kressel]

As a member of a deeply religious community myself, I wanted to make a point regarding Nixon's Quaker upbringing. The book states that Nixon's devout mother did not want him to enter the war-like environment of politics. Quakers are known for pacifism and forgiveness, yet Nixon was precisely the opposite: war-mongering and unforgiving. It seems to me he was just another rebel son. Perhaps this may seem like an obvious point, but as a religious mother with my own rebel son, I'm talking about something deeply ingrained in a person's character. When kids rebel against their religious parents' values, they often do go the whole hog and become the complete opposite.

[Kristen]

These first four chapters have definitely drawn me in for a deeper dive into Nixon's psychology. I would typically be turned off by some of the left/right polarizing statements in the text so far (some opinions/editorializing that gave me pause) but I respect the credibility of the research and source materials. It will be interesting to see if and how my view changes as I learn more.

[Ted]

What I find so fascinating about the chapters we have read so far was the complete obsession Nixon had with Vietnam (and more generally, with foreign policy, as he readily admits). Nothing else seemed to matter to him. It is in contrast to presidents after him, especially two-term presidents, who tended to have focused specifically on domestic issues in the first time and only in their second term, pivoted to more international issues.

[Kressel]

Ted wrote: "It is in contrast to presidents after him, especially two-term presidents, who tended to have focused specifically on domestic issues in the first time and only in their second term, pivoted to more international issues."

I'm not sure I agree. George W. Bush wanted to be a domestic-policy president, and then 9/11 happened. Nixon inherited the war from Johnson. Presidents get what they walk into.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Good comment Kressel but think about it - Nixon really wanted to leave his mark with China.

[Lorna, Assisting Moderator (T) - SCOTUS - Civil Rights]

I agree Bentley. On a recent trip to China, we were amazed at how the Chinese people regard Nixon as a hero. The debut of the opera Nixon in China was widely acclaimed here in the U.S. as well and one of my favorite operas!

I thought little could surprise or shock me about Nixon's treachery until I read these riveting chapters. I was most saddened by Nixon's manipulations with the Paris peace talks in order to assure his election in 1968, particularly when you realize that as a result the war in Vietnam raged on for at least another five years causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people. I was also struck when Secretary of State Dean Rusk told President Johnson on the eve of the election that to disclose Nixon's treachery, they would also have to disclose that the U.S. Government was spying on the president of South Vietnam stating that it could not be used for political purposes because "the moment we cross over that divide we are in a different society." (P. 24). Consequently President Johnson remained silent.

[Bryan]

I tallied international crises in the first year alone once:

Truman: 3
Ike: 2
JFK: 6
LBJ: 5
Nixon: 5
Ford: 6
Carter: 2
Reagn: 3
Bush 41: 7
Clinton: 1
Bush 43: 3
Obama: 1

They do pivot to foreign policy.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Interesting Bryan

[Christopher]

Francie wrote: "Wonderful book so far. I agree with everyone's response thus far. I'm still shocked by Kissinger's role in sabotaging the peace talks. I had such a different opinion of hit."

I wouldn't be so quick to pass judgement on Kissinger just yet, Francie. There is a new biography on him that has just come out, the first volume of a planned two volume series, that you may want to check out. Here are the details:

by Niall Ferguson

[Francie]

Thanks, Christopher. Added to my TBR.

[Patty]

1. I'm Patty Martin from CO. I'm getting started late, but I'll try to catch up. I was never interested in history in school. I was more of a math/science person & thought learning history was a total waste of my time. I just moved from CA to CO this past year. I lived in CA for 32+ years. I saw that state slowly going downhill because of politics. I decided about 15 years ago I needed to learn more about politics and quickly realized I also needed to learn more about history & economics to understand politics. This is a daunting task, to say the least. I'm interested in learning more about Nixon because I vaguely remember his presidency being a very tumultuous time. I'd like to understand if the country was more tumultuous than or now. Our country recovered from Nixon's presidency. Therefore if Nixon's administration was as bad as the current one, and not any worse, then maybe there is hope that we'll recover from the current administration.

2. I was alive during Nixon's administration, but was only in grade school. I remember my 2 oldest brothers being very involved in the Young Republicans & helping to get Nixon elected. I also remember them being very distraught at finding out that Nixon was really crooked. They were in high school at the time & very idealistic. I believe this had a huge impact on their lives. I was so young during Nixon's administration, I really didn't have any feelings about him one way or the other.

3. My family never talked about politics and still don't.

4. I don't know enough yet to say whether Nixon should have been pardoned.

5. I think he was treated more than fair, especially considering how little is done to politicians these days when they break the law.

6. This isn't an easy question to answer. If he hadn't been so paranoid & conniving, I think he would have been a great president. I googled his list of accomplishments & there were many, ended the draft, began the war on cancer, signed Title IX preventing gender bias, desegregated southern schools, lowered the voting age to 18, 1st president to visit China, and many more. So why did he go so awry?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Welcome Patty - glad you are joining us and it is always fun to see if your views change or stay the same after you read a book like this one.

It is sad that your brothers who were so idealistic were so let down by their leaders.

[Patty]

There are several things I'm finding appalling in these first 4 chapters & never knew about before. The 1st is that the Vietnam War could have ended while Johnson was in office. Why would Nixon want to put so many more lives at stake for his own gain? How did he live with himself after that? Another thing I find appalling & would like to read more information on, is that Henry Kissinger was just as bad as Nixon. I have never heard of Kissinger in a bad light before. I was also very surprised that much of the information on the bombing of Cambodia was kept secret for so long. How could someone from the inner circle not speak up about it sooner?

My impression of the men that surrounded Nixon & Nixon himself, were that they were all very egotistical. I've worked with too many people like them, but on a smaller scale, i.e. didn't affect so many lives & major world events, in the corporate world. I believe many people with huge egos have huge insecurities brought on by things that happened in their earlier lives.

This author does not go into enough detail on Nixon's early life for us to understand why Nixon turned out the way he did. So he was raised poor; many great men in history were raised poor. Many great men in history had difficult childhoods. Most great people in history also had at least one very influential parent or other person in their life. Maybe Nixon never had that one influential person in his life & maybe he succeeded on only his own true grit. Maybe this made him very skeptical of others.

What I keep thinking as I read this book is if this part of history happened today, would Nixon be made out to be such a villain and such a thorn in our nation's side? It seems there are a lot worse things happening in our government today & the nation is just turning a blind eye to all of it. I will continue thinking about this as I read the book.

[Vincent]

Patty wrote: "There are several things I'm finding appalling in these first 4 chapters & never knew about before. The 1st is that the Vietnam War could have ended while Johnson was in office. Why would Nixon wan..."

Hi Patty

Welcome aboard

Much of this book is based upon, I think, recent declassification of tapes and papers offering greater insight to the Nixon presidency. The entire history of Richard Nixon - his upbringing - his Naval experience - his congressional, his vice presidential, his other political attempts treated in depth would double the length of this book and what I believe Mr. Weiner is doing is exploring the meanings and effects of the new information.

By the way Nixon did not end the draft in my view - the public discontent with the morality of Vietnam spurred that. Likewise for other issues - the time was here and he had to bend to society pressures I think.

Being the first to go to some places, even China, does make one great - it is what is accomplished.

Just sharing my visions of this - thanks

[Patty]

I agree with you, Vincent on a lot of what you say. I was just listing a few of the accomplishments that I found when I googled it. They may not be what we view as accomplishments today, but they were viewed as accomplishments back in the day. I do remember Nixon going to China when it happened. This was a HUGE accomplishment back then! It began to open up relationships with a country that had been closed off to the world for years.

I also saw on a list of Nixon's accomplishments that he started the EPA. I do not, in any sense of the word, see this as an accomplishment. That agency should have been abolished a long time ago. They may have started out doing some good in this country, because I do remember how polluted our country was back in the 60's & 70's & it has been cleaned up significantly since then. However, this agency has gone way beyond what I think their initial intention was & have infiltrated themselves into every aspect of our lives.

I also understand that Mr. Weiner couldn't include Nixon's upbringing in this book. I was just answering a question in this thread. I understand that there are plenty of other books written on Nixon that I can go to for that information.

[Vincent]

Patty wrote: "I agree with you, Vincent on a lot of what you say. I was just listing a few of the accomplishments that I found when I googled it. They may not be what we view as accomplishments today, but they w..."
If the EPA had kept its funding and its mission we might not have the global warming problem we have - I know this is not the place for that conversation but I have to disagree with you. Al Gore's inconvenient truth is now truer and less convenient I think.

[Patty]

You're right. Not the place to have this discussion, especially since I totally disagree on this point. Global warming is a man-made myth used to justify more taxes & more unnecessary laws!

[Scott]

Through Nixon may have had a fascination with tying his personal world to winning in Vietnam and getting it squared away so it would look better for himself and the country but no more so than the current president and the president before him who completely absolved themselves with any foreign policy other than those that brought them into the spotlight.

Who's to say what the current president and immediate past president had to do with foreign policy and the behind the scenes material until we get to see their papers when released to the public. What about Nixons up bringing and those that were influential in forming his early thoughts and creating the man we see on paper? We don't get a look at that, just snapshots of his crisis years just after his term as VP.

As for pardoning, I suggest Ford knew more about what really happened and in the sense of peace and unity saw that dumping the ills and woes on one person was not going to solve this nations problem. It seems to be human nature to find someone down and out and then dump all the problems that occurred on them regardless of whether they were the cause of the problem. Nixon was at the wrong place at the wrong time and received a massive amount of finger pointing and dumping as the fall guy for the Nations political woes.

[Vincent]

Chef wrote: "Through Nixon may have had a fascination with with tying his personal worldto winning in Vietnam and Getting it squared away so it would look better for himself and the country but no more so than ..."
I respectfully disagree - he lied to the whole nation - he plotted in secret - he intervened in the peace process before being elected

Short of the Civil War he was the greatest attack in our history from within the nation.

I think also that Ford, I am a fan of his, did not at all consider "dumping the ills...." on Nixon but rather the long disruption that would have followed the the American people if Nixon were prosecuted.

[Helga]

Vincent wrote: "Chef wrote: "Through Nixon may have had a fascination with with tying his personal worldto winning in Vietnam and Getting it squared away so it would look better for himself and the country but no ..."

I have to agree with you Vincent. Very apropos.

[[deleted user]]

Vincent wrote: "Patty wrote: "I agree with you, Vincent on a lot of what you say. I was just listing a few of the accomplishments that I found when I googled it. They may not be what we view as accomplishments tod..."
Definitely not the spot for defense of the EPA or discussion of today's politics regarding it.

[[deleted user]]

Vincent wrote: "Chef wrote: "Through Nixon may have had a fascination with with tying his personal worldto winning in Vietnam and Getting it squared away so it would look better for himself and the country but no ..."
I beg to differ concerning Nixon on several points. He was not the worst President. Ford was not remiss in pardoning him. How do we know that LBJ's ceasefire would have held? As for Kerry,his attendance of the Paris Peace talks was an act of treason,as was Jane Fonda's.
And as far as current and past presidents are concerned, I haven't seen much in the way of standing up to and engaging China and Russia. They do as they please and we appease them.

[Teri]

Hi everyone! I appreciate the discussion and the differing viewpoints. Please make sure we stay on point with the week's discussion and topics from the book.

Just a word of caution: We want to make sure that we are civil and understanding of everyone's point of view. It may be that we have to agree to disagree in some discussion.

Just a reminder that weeks 2, 3, and 4 are now open. Everyone that received the book as part of the giveaway should be participating each week as part of the T & C's.

Here's the link to this weeks (week 4) discussion. I'll have questions posted before long:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Scott]

I agree to disagree, why banter when life is so short and there are so many more books to read. Perhaps Vincent just needs some space to vent or someone to vent to, I'm ok with that being me.

[Vincent]

Chef wrote: "I agree to disagree, why banter when life is so short and there are so many more books to read. Perhaps Vincent just needs some space to vent or someone to vent to, I'm ok with that being me."

Thanks for permission but I didn't vent I just stated what I thought.

[Bevan Lewis]

Hi I am Bevan from Whangarei in New Zealand. I’ve always been interested in the past since listening to stories of my Grandparents, and loved studying history at school. I think its an extension of my enjoyment of travel. The past truly is another country, and the variety of events, stories and the debates over explanations for the actions of those in the past are always full of fascination for me.

I was born the year after Nixon abdicated, and didn’t really hear much about it until the 1990s when I came across references to Tricky Dicky, and the famous scenes of his resignation began appearing in television histories of the twentieth century. The New Zealand Herald also ran a series of articles on his downfall with extracts from the tapes. My central impression of Richard Nixon, acquired from the media mostly, was one of a corrupt man who would stop at nothing. My only knowledge however of his presidency was around the Watergate affair.

I don’t think Nixon should have been pardoned. The disruption this would have caused would have been a bi-product of the inevitable shakeup of the top echelons in American politics. It would have facilitated a purge of those implicated in his crimes and restored confidence in the Presidency. It would have also made clear, as others have said, that future presidents wouldn’t get off the hook for breaching the constitution.

It seems to me that he was fairly treated, perhaps even too much so by some. I guess that you can understand many would have struggled to accept that the President was criminally wrong and deserved no mercy. My impression though is that without the tenacious actions of the Washington Post journalists and whistleblowers the criminality might have carried on and Nixon served out his term.

I think Nixon was a terrible President who did much to undermine confidence in politics and the Presidency in the USA. Right from his early years he seems to have been willing to engage in dishonest practices. While I don’t know too much detail about the Vietnam war peace process and escalation my impression is that Nixon’s Presidency lacked integrity and was pretty much a failure from start to finish.

[Bevan Lewis]

Really interesting comments. The background certainly inspires me to examine Nixon's earlier career further. I have a copy of Richard M. Nixon: A Life in Full by Conrad Black to read which looks pretty comprehensive.
The first four chapters are almost unbelievable in their invocation of a morally bankrupt individual who would willingly prolong the war to gain political power. Its interesting how Nixon's attitude to the Vietnam War shows how wedded we become to prior decisions - the prospect of a dishonourable withdrawal which would save US lives just wasn't palatable at all. The hatred of communism was such that the pretty dodgy South Vietnamese regime was worth propping up.
Not being an expert on this era, I can't help feeling an instinctive caution of Tim Weiner's absolutely carte blanc condemnation of Nixon's style, policies and evil dismantling of the 'Great Society'. I don't doubt Nixon was a disaster and morally corrupt but such a strong condemnation does generate a bit of a feeling of 'he doth protest too much'.
Can anyone recommend a really good history of the Vietnam War from whoa to go, including the strategic aspects?
OK this is the first time I've cited so hope I get it right!

[Teri]

So glad you are joining us in this discussion, Bevan.

Yes, almost unbelievable, but true. So much information on these newly released tapes, gives us information straight from Nixon and the men he surrounded himself with.

I don't have a specific book to recommend to you, that I have read, but others might. You may want to peruse our folder on Vietnam:

Vietnam War

Good job with the citation. You're very close. Be sure to add "by" between book cover image and author, and when there is no picture for the author, add their link and place (no photo) at the end. Here is how the book you mentioned should look:

by Conrad Black (no photo)

[Lily]

I was also a little suspicoius of the carte blanche Nixon was nuts theme, but I realize this is not Tim's voice but rather the voices of those closest to Nixon at the time he was in office. Also, the fact that many of his close aids or henchmen went to jail to protect him, or were betrayed by him (not sure which at this point 40% through book) makes the sharp tone more credible. It is hard to believe a U. S. president could be so corrupt, but we do tend to want to see them in a good light, despite their faults. At least we used to with past presidents. The current climate of opinion on a President in office is to criticize and find fault. Not talking politics here or focusing on any one recent president but it is a trend I see in the last 15 years or so. The pendulum of opinion swings from absolute veneration and hero worship of the past to outright rudeness and criticism of more recent presidents. This book is a real eye opener.

[Teri]

Lily wrote: "I was also a little suspicoius of the carte blanche Nixon was nuts theme, but I realize this is not Tim's voice but rather the voices of those closest to Nixon at the time he was in office. Also, t..."

Glad you're joining us, Lily. Great comments. I am sure there is a lot of information from many (all?) presidencies that we don't know about and much would be shocking.

I'd venture to say that political opinion has been strong even longer than 15 years, but I would agree that it's more defined in the last few administrations.

[Vincent]

Bevan wrote: "Really interesting comments. The background certainly inspires me to examine Nixon's earlier career further. I have a copy of Richard M. Nixon: A Life in Full by Conrad Black to read which looks pr..."

Hi Bevan

Just a couple of comments

"hatred of communism" I think is inaccurate. Fear of and concern about considering the acts that were done by Stalin and his followers - and the wain which they "took revenge" while invading Germany at the end of WW II made them a force to be concerned about.

Condemnation of Nixon, again I think, was due to his lying to the American people - not for purposes of national security or other shared purpose but only for himself and his illegal efforts to maintain power - and I think this was maybe the only time the public was lied to for such a reason.

[Bryan]

Bevan:

Many books on the Vietnam War, no doubt. This one is older, but it is pretty comprehensive:

by Stanley Karnow (no photo)

For Nixon, these two came out and are good:

by Ken Hughes

[Teri]

Thanks, Vincent for your comments.

Bryan - I thought you might have some suggestions.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks any book recommendations, please also place them in the bibliography.

Any posts with links that are placed on threads please also add those to the glossary.

Helps to have them in both places.

Great posts.

[Bevan Lewis]

Thanks for your suggestions Bryan, will definitely tackle the Karnow book.

[Bryan]

Will do.

[Steven]

Right now only introduce yourself here.

I.Hi my name is Steven Newman from Chicago, IL. Due to a family tragedy I'm a little late to the game but am catching up. I've always been a big fan of Presidential politics and have read quite a few books on Nixon.

2. I was not alive while Nixon was president. I think the best way to put it would agree with my dad's analysis, "at the time you thought he was terrible,but he stands as being not too bad compared to later presidents." I know that intelectually, Nixon was the smartest Republican president of the century. He was responsible for very progressive environmental legislation, however his foreign policy agenda was a complete disaster. As an attorney, he was well aware of the limits of executive power and frequently skirted the law. Nixon was also a man whose primary focus was his foreign policy agenda which is a concept that is quite foreign to myself who grew up during the Clinton years which were nearly exclusively focused on domestic policy.

3. Did this shape your perception of the man? Reviewing my father's quote from answer #2, Nixon seemed at the time to tow the line as far as right wing conservative politics are concerned, only to be made more of a centrist by history and later Republican presidents. Coming from a family that is split by liberals on one side and Goldwater Republicans on the other, I've heard from both sides that he was not as "bad" (take that for what its worth) as Reagan or Bush.

4. No, Nixon should not have been pardoned. He left office before being formally impeached and was guilty of violating presidential powers.

5. Since I wasn't alive at the time, I am not really sure whether he was treated fairly. That is one of the reasons I enjoy reading about Nixon in particular.

6. I've read close to a dozen books about Nixon and would say that he was fair. The two biggest legacies that he has left on today's world is the normalization of relations with China, and the backbone for the EPA. His foreign policy and governing of civil welfare inside the country was absolutley disastrous, and his decision not to leave Vietnam has left the United States with an entire generation full of men who suffer from mental illness as a result of the war.

[Teri]

Glad to see you join us, Steven!

[Vincent]

Steven wrote: "Right now only introduce yourself here.

I.Hi my name is Steven Newman from Chicago, IL. Due to a family tragedy I'm a little late to the game but am catching up. I've always been a big fan of Pres..."

Hi

Nixon smartest? most intelligent? compared to Teddy R? Maybe Ike? why do you say that?

He was swept up by forces for the environment while he was at the helm. I am not sure that he had much interest in this part of his "success"

I think you will see lots of views on other subjects, such as pardoning, as you proceed through the sections and see the notes.

[Alisa]

I was surprised by Nixon's meddling in the Paris Peace talks. Surprised maybe is not entirely the right word, because I'm not sure there is much about Nixon's underhanded tactics that surprise me anymore, so perhaps I should say dismayed. All to win an election. It is so clear from reading these early pages that the taste of power has the potential to corrupt, and that potential was ignited in Richard Nixon.

[Teri]

Alisa wrote: "I was surprised by Nixon's meddling in the Paris Peace talks. Surprised maybe is not entirely the right word, because I'm not sure there is much about Nixon's underhanded tactics that surprise me a..."

Indeed, ignited then burned like a wildfire.

[Tomi]

Mary wrote: "Hi, I am Mary from Northern California. I was a history major in college and believe there is so much we can learn, process and apply to our lives nod communities from the beginning of history!!

I..."

"Smarmy" - perfect word to describe Nixon!

[Tomi]

I feel a little bit sorry for Nixon - what an unhappy man he must have been, surrounded by his feelings of paranoia and distrust!

[Teri]

Tomi wrote: "I feel a little bit sorry for Nixon - what an unhappy man he must have been, surrounded by his feelings of paranoia and distrust!"

Smarmy is perfect for him. Nixon certainly had some distrust and paranoia. I wonder if that is partly because he knew he could not be trusted himself?

[Tomi]

Teri wrote: "Tomi wrote: "I feel a little bit sorry for Nixon - what an unhappy man he must have been, surrounded by his feelings of paranoia and distrust!"

Smarmy is perfect for him. Nixon certainly had some ..."

That is certainly a possibility. We tend to see our own characteristics in others and expect them to behave the way we would behave. He knew he was corrupt, so he believed everybody else was too.