Beta Reader Group discussion
Writing Advice & Discussion
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Building a website to improve beta experience
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I think it's a good idea. You're going to wind up having a lot of beta readers who are trying to get paid for their services on your site. Paid beta services are on the rise. Maybe you can also have a rating system for the beta reader, especially if it is a paid service. Are they worth what they charge? Do they give good feedback? Are they timely? Stuff like that. It could turn into a place to go to find peer rated beta readers since free beta readers are getting harder to find and are generally booked solid as soon as they post.
Update:A third main feature!
3. Live comment section for each beta/review project.
We definitely don't want fun interactions between authors and readers to be replaced by a couple of dull buttons, do we?
Rayann wrote: "I think it's a good idea. You're going to wind up having a lot of beta readers who are trying to get paid for their services on your site. Paid beta services are on the rise. Maybe you can also hav..."Yeah, I fear that free beta is declining. It's definitely a high-demand-low-supply situation. Maybe I should change my job from being an author to a beta reader. It makes more money. How sad.
Honestly, it sounds like you'll be overrun by a lot of people wanting beta reads and very few giving them. It doesn't sound like you have a system in place to combat this, so unless you can get something in place that makes authors uploading their books participate in the beta-reading process, you'll have a digital ghost town with lots of books and few (if any) active readers.
Tom wrote: "Honestly, it sounds like you'll be overrun by a lot of people wanting beta reads and very few giving them. It doesn't sound like you have a system in place to combat this, so unless you can get som..."Yeah, I thought about that. But the thing is: authors don't have time to beta-read. They write. I've asked around about this.
Tom wrote: "Honestly, it sounds like you'll be overrun by a lot of people wanting beta reads and very few giving them. It doesn't sound like you have a system in place to combat this, so unless you can get som..."Besides, ghost town should be true everywhere that involves beta-author. So few beta readers and so many books. My books got ghostified in days.
So, real question: Why would beta readers go to your site? If a book they want to read is available there, it's almost definitely already available here on Goodreads, located in a specialized group where all the members' interests are more or less aligned. It seems like more work than the system that is already in place.I like the reverse book ranking as an idea, but not in practice, because that means books that are good and popular are very quickly dropped out of sight, which kind of does a disservice to that author. Just as they get some sort of visibility and momentum, they're put on page 5 behind stories that might have legitimate reasons for not attracting beta readers.
Tom wrote: "So, real question: Why would beta readers go to your site? If a book they want to read is available there, it's almost definitely already available here on Goodreads, located in a specialized group..."Sites can coexist. They don't compete. Never want to dethrone goodreads. The goal (subject to change) of this site is to increase availability and hopefully provides more conveninent and friendly user interface to "new" people. I have a hard time finding good free beta readers. It's certainly a dead-end feel to me.
The reverse ranking was based on fair distribution of beta and reviews. (I use "was".) And popular books only matter on amazon. Beta helps you improve your quality and reviews get you a decent start. When you get a review or beta, it's others' turn. (However, quality of beta/review needs to be controlled.) No disservece intended.
But right now, after some thinking, I decides to be skeptical towards the goal of fair distribution, and I may need to balance paid and free services; that is, business and pleasure.
Everything I said is subject to change. Reality will shape the design, not the other way around.
I'm not sure I agree that author don't have time to beta-read. I think it is a must. Writers have to be readers as well. First it gives you insight into what others are writing in a given genera.
Second it gives you more experience at proofing and editing. Working solely on your own works provides diminishing returns. Not just because there are less corrections each time (hopefully), but because the more you reread a work the more you skim. Beta reading forces you to use your skills, in my opinion.
I would defiantly be looking to use a site like this.
Maybe you can add a feature where a beta can't get another MS until they finish the one they have, or provide a sound reason why they didn't. This would prevent people from taking advantage of the system (free books) and automatically weed out those that don't complete projects they accept.
I agree with Paul. I write. I beta read because it forces me to divert my eyes from my own work, keeps the experience fresh and connects me with other writers. I would use it, as well.
Jacqueline wrote: "I agree with Paul. I write. I beta read because it forces me to divert my eyes from my own work, keeps the experience fresh and connects me with other writers. I would use it, as well."Thank you for the input! Of course, I didn't ask all the authors that if they have time to beta-read. Those I asked said they don't have time...
As for those features you mentioned, trust me. Making sure people give quality, timely, and well-mannered beta is my utmost goal.
Paul wrote: "I'm not sure I agree that author don't have time to beta-read. I think it is a must. Writers have to be readers as well. First it gives you insight into what others are writing in a given gene..."
It's nice for you to say otherwise! Those people I asked said they don't have time. I was kinda disappointed when they did.
Paul wrote: "I'm not sure I agree that author don't have time to beta-read. I think it is a must. Writers have to be readers as well. First it gives you insight into what others are writing in a given gene..."
Wait... "defiantly"?
Stupid auto correct. :)I would definitely use the site.
What I'm missing here in the goodreads groups is structure. I mean after 2 weeks or so nobody is going to find your request or your offer. If you don't get an answer within the first few days you have to re-post to get attention. If your website was structured in a way to easily find e.g. the preferred genre or whether the beta-reader is offering for free or not...I would definitely use the site.
Barbara wrote: "What I'm missing here in the goodreads groups is structure. I mean after 2 weeks or so nobody is going to find your request or your offer. If you don't get an answer within the first few days you h..."That's the most fundamental thing I'm going for. Guess I'm in the right direction. :)
Speaking of authors needing to take time to read, it may be good to have a beta swap section for authors. You read mine, I'll read yours...I also know that some authors who are also editors or cover artists or online formating specialists are willing to swap their services for beta reads, especially as it is getting hard to find volunteer readers.
Good news! Got the quality control figured out!It doesn't stop you from getting bad beta or terrible author right off the bat, but in the short term it will eliminate them completely, just for you. Unless you have terrible luck, then it will be long-term.
And getting bad beta doesn't affect your ranking.
Interesting, I'm curious to see how you do that.
Update:1. The high-demand(beta)-low-supply(reader) situation has been solved. The site should not be a ghost town when populated. The solution requires authors who treat their skills and works seriously, so I don't worry about it.
2. Swap has been integrated. Pretty easy this one.
A lot of features have been added. Preparing to move on to Review tomorrow.
Barbara wrote: "Interesting, I'm curious to see how you do that."It's nothing mysterious or complicated. Just a matter of a single button. Works like a charm. :)
Sorry for not disclosing the details, because it's still too early to do that.
This sounds like a great idea! And it's so simple that I'm actually a little dumbfounded no one thought of this years ago.Maybe a contact feature might help. Like a "friends list" to keep in contact with people you're beta reading for?
Anyway, I'd love to try this out if you ever get it going. :)
Jaina wrote: "This sounds like a great idea! And it's so simple that I'm actually a little dumbfounded no one thought of this years ago.Maybe a contact feature might help. Like a "friends list" to keep in conta..."
Thank you for the support!
As for keeping in contact, if you agree to beta-read for someone, a project will be created, where a calendar and a live chat window can keep you in constant contact with that person. You can attach files in the chat too.
Or do you mean a "favorites list"?
Important UPDATE!Find an awesome way to prevent raze reviews and deliberate low rating as retaliation!
I know this is a beta group, so just for your information.
I know the site may sound too good to be true, but... SERIOUSLY, the solutions to those problems are so simple. Why nobody... well, whatever.Beta system is finished. Review needs one more day. Then I'll start doing the real thing - build it.
Thank you, everyone!
I can't give you a date when the site will be officially launched, so don't hold your breath. But since I have already made the "passionate" error by purchasing a domain beforehand, it will motivate me to work as fast as possible.See you then, guys.
I found one statement in message 26 not quite appropriate, so I deleted it. I apologized for any hard feeling or misunderstanding.
Last update:This update is a heavy one...
Today, I was blessed with some new insight into free beta and paid beta and authors' expectations, and so, I solemnly gives myself this lofty goal:
Free beta readers of fear and burden by redefining what beta read is. I want to revive the passion in beta read. Some of you still have it, but more and more are... well.
The connection between authors and beta readers have become somehow... fragile. Tender. Delicate. Easy to break. Easy to offend. It lacks strength, sturdiness, self-assurance.
I WILL protect beta readers. I will use this site to do it.
Because...
The new definition of beta-read is something anyone who reads can do.
Remember: There are more books than readers. You are always needed. If some take you for granted, they don't deserve you. There will always be people who truly need you. I want to free your reading experience of fear.
I still beta read, but have thought about quitting a number of times based upon one author criticizing my competence in reading the genre (not to me directly, but through another GR thread) and another author basically lambasting me directly for obviously, once again, not having a clue about the genre. I do read both genres and have for years. I figured I wouldn't let their behavior change my behavior in beta reading. I think authors requesting beta reads (whether they got the feedback they wanted to hear or not) should just be encouraged to thank the beta reader and say they'll take their comments into consideration (even if that "consideration" is just deleting the e-mail -- I tell the authors this is just my opinion and they are free to ignore it). I would suggest that you divide up the beta reads into YA and non-YA since there are so many YA beta requests. I tend to scroll through the listing of authors looking for beta readers periodically to see if any books look interesting to me and having that division would mean I don't have to scroll through 1/2-3/4 of the postings.
Linda wrote: "I still beta read, but have thought about quitting a number of times based upon one author criticizing my competence in reading the genre (not to me directly, but through another GR thread) and ano..."That's a really good point.
My biggest concern, for the authors, is uploading manuscripts to site where, from what I can see, just about anyone will be able to have access to these unpublished works. That's something an author definitely doesn't want. Particularly with issues like plagiarism and down right theft. So what safety measures will be in place?And as a beta reader- I'm wondering just how you expect me to beta from a website. Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet, but it seems as if I'd be limited to just this site to do work when using your web page. Personally, that alone would turn me off from using it. I tend to MS Word on my iPad and keep communications open with the author the entire time I have their manuscript. Be it phone, text, Facebook etc. I saw mention of a chat feature, but again, now I'm limiting myself to one site and that doesn't fly. Particularly because I would HAVE to have an Internet connection at all times, which isn't always feasible. For me, I love beta reading partly because it's a job I can do on the go, from pretty much anywhere at anytime.
I guess I'm most concerned about the actual logistics of completing a beta read using this site.
I saw mention of a possible beta rankin system. But what about an author ranking system as well. Ranked by beta readers in categories such as: accepts criticism well, communicates in a timely manner, provides easy to read manuscripts (seriously, if I get sent one more first draft that not even been spell checked, I will lose my mind) and other criteria. No one likes beta reading for an author that turns around and gets upset with you criticizing their work.
Sorry- that was all longer than expected! Just throwing out thoughts.
Jaina wrote: "Linda wrote: "I still beta read, but have thought about quitting a number of times based upon one author criticizing my competence in reading the genre (not to me directly, but through another GR t..."I agree strongly with all these points! I am sure the response from some authors causes volunteer beta readers to just slink quietly away. I'd LOVE a ranking system by the author of where there work is grammar-wise (1 for "I basically typed whatever came into my head" to 10 for "polished and ready to publish". I have also spent many hours reading through level 2-4 manuscripts - which is fine, if I know what I've agreed to do). As a reader, it's hard to read for plot/character/story when I end up with things like, "Your hot" (yes, actual example)
wow I love this! I'm mostly commenting so I will get updates about this when you have the site ready :)
Rayann wrote: "I think it's a good idea. You're going to wind up having a lot of beta readers who are trying to get paid for their services on your site. Paid beta services are on the rise. Maybe you can also hav..."I think this site would be a great idea! Adding on to what Rayann said, beta readers can be rated and reviewed, and authors can choose their betas more wisely. I think that Goodreads is still a great platform to connect with other writers and readers, but often times, it's difficult to weed out who the serious betas are. I think it would give writers a piece of mind if they knew more about the reader they were giving their work to.
I'm certainly intrigued by this and can't wait to see what happens!
Tom wrote: "Honestly, it sounds like you'll be overrun by a lot of people wanting beta reads and very few giving them. It doesn't sound like you have a system in place to combat this, so unless you can get som..."Yes! That's what I was thinking. Thanks for articulating, Tom. I have had to make an active choice to set aside my writing to participate in Beta-reading. On the good side, reading and critiquing is therapeutic and grounding for writers: it certainly helps us see our own working flaws in the process. BUT, I'm not getting my own writing done.
Having said this, I understand where Delvin's concept is born: If you have a book you want others to critique, then you'll have to read someone else's book--that's how you get points (and more interest in tyour book). The problem, as you point out, Tom, is that if we spend all of our time Beta-reading, we are not writing and producing things to be read.
All the points in the world would be of no use if we have simply turned ourselves into Betas rather than writers.
That-darned-D-A-sidekick,
Jeanie
What the...Why this ancient thread suddenly pops up?
I can only defend one castle. This one is lost! Pull back!
I think Authonomy proved that writers will beta-read each other's books for swaps, but not if the site is clunky and hard to use. That's what killed the site, not lack of beta readers. As an author, I'm not going to volunteer as a beta reader, but I will agree to swap with someone. I just don't have time to not do quid pro quo.
Hi, LelaAre you interested in swapping my historical romance novella for your work? It is entitled "The Knight and The Healer." The work runs about 30,000 words. It is for mature readers, but not erotic.
So, I want your opinions on this. Thank you.
Generally, this website allows you to submit your books for beta-read and review. You only need to upload a sample of your work and open it for either beta or review or both. Then the site will put your book on its shelves among others for beta-readers/reviewers to choose from. Now, here comes the two main features:
1. Reverse ranking system:
The fewer beta-reads your book has received, the higher your book ranks, which means if your book has no beta-read, it will rank above others that have at least one. (Other factors include the length of your book and how long your book has been up for beta.)
2. A calendar to help you keep track of your beta/review progress:
Just a calendar, like a reminder. It tracks your weekly progress. I have doubts about letting it calculate your beta-speed, like words/week. The purpose of this feature is to achieve "I want beta-read to be personal pleasure but also efficient". The beta-speed, along with other stats, shows how efficient you are.
Conclusion:
Buisness is efficient, I get that. But I don't want that. You can offer paid services on this site, but I don't want to see business gradually usurp personal passion. Why personal passion is so fragile, insecure? It lacks... buisness. Or in other words, protection. A well-structured shelter that ensures personal passion doesn't get hurt so much that it dies. I want to find the balance between efficiency and serenity.
I appreciate your suggestions as well as your support.