A Thousand Splendid Suns
question
Is it okay to have more than one spouse at the same time?
Shattered-Dream-Renewed-Hopes
Mar 14, 2014 05:32AM
I just found it very wrong how Muslim men are allowed to marry more than once.
Mariam's father had three wives and ten children but they Condemned and made such a big fuss about Mariam being born out of wedlock.
Mariam's father had three wives and ten children but they Condemned and made such a big fuss about Mariam being born out of wedlock.
Fatima please, it is perfectly possible to impart knowledge and educate people without resorting to insults. Thankyou.
I don't have a problem with plural marriage per say- I do have a problem with a culture that treats women as chattel. Of course! I am an American woman living in New York in 2014!
Sex outside of wedlock is an age old moral taboo for a lot of reasons, especially when the world was smaller and "less civilized" for lack of a better way to say "liberal".
Women were basically their husband's posessions, but they were also their responsibility. The wives couldn't work, therefore all of their needs and their children's needs had to be satisfied by their husband. His responsibility is to acted as their steward to provide for them. Women were supposed to be subservient to him in response.
Without strict moral codes of sexual conduct to insure paternity of the children a man must provide for and a wife who will be a "earn" her keep by following the rules it would have been complete disorder, chaos. The only thing of value a woman had in that culture was her "honor" which was indicated by her virginity and willingness to conform. A woman who would careless discard such a thing was clearly unreliable, without discipline, non-conformist- and therefor trouble. If it fair? No, of course not. But EVERYBODY knew, those were the rules. If you choose to break the rules....
There is a huge difference between following societies rules and customs which many include men being able to take multiple wives under clearly outlined tradition with proper steps and parental consent, and a girl running around willy nilly discarding the ONLY THING she has of value. Again, unfair- but if you look at it in context- its completely predictable.
Your question comes from a standpoint of a person who lives in a very different culture. You are picking out one hypocrisy amongst and entire culture based on unequal and completely segregated roles. You cant really just pick "one" element to the exclusion of all others in a very complex society. The issue is much broader than that one element.
Sex outside of wedlock is an age old moral taboo for a lot of reasons, especially when the world was smaller and "less civilized" for lack of a better way to say "liberal".
Women were basically their husband's posessions, but they were also their responsibility. The wives couldn't work, therefore all of their needs and their children's needs had to be satisfied by their husband. His responsibility is to acted as their steward to provide for them. Women were supposed to be subservient to him in response.
Without strict moral codes of sexual conduct to insure paternity of the children a man must provide for and a wife who will be a "earn" her keep by following the rules it would have been complete disorder, chaos. The only thing of value a woman had in that culture was her "honor" which was indicated by her virginity and willingness to conform. A woman who would careless discard such a thing was clearly unreliable, without discipline, non-conformist- and therefor trouble. If it fair? No, of course not. But EVERYBODY knew, those were the rules. If you choose to break the rules....
There is a huge difference between following societies rules and customs which many include men being able to take multiple wives under clearly outlined tradition with proper steps and parental consent, and a girl running around willy nilly discarding the ONLY THING she has of value. Again, unfair- but if you look at it in context- its completely predictable.
Your question comes from a standpoint of a person who lives in a very different culture. You are picking out one hypocrisy amongst and entire culture based on unequal and completely segregated roles. You cant really just pick "one" element to the exclusion of all others in a very complex society. The issue is much broader than that one element.
Jeffery Lee Radatz
You have to look at modern society today! Look at Charlie Sheen. He has two girlfriends and they are perfectly content living in the same house! Mr. S
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I do have a problem with a culture that treats women as chattel.
That was a bit stupid and illogical to say
this is a fictional novel, with made up characters yeah females may be treated by males but it does not univesally mean that all female are treatefd with such abuse.
you can not judge 'a culture' on a minority..
because to be honest, look back to the patriarchal societys females where dominated by males- from multiple cultures
so dont be a racist bitch!!!!
That was a bit stupid and illogical to say
this is a fictional novel, with made up characters yeah females may be treated by males but it does not univesally mean that all female are treatefd with such abuse.
you can not judge 'a culture' on a minority..
because to be honest, look back to the patriarchal societys females where dominated by males- from multiple cultures
so dont be a racist bitch!!!!
Heart.Of.Sapphire. wrote: "I just found it very wrong how Muslim men are allowed to marry more than once.
Mariam's father had three wives and ten children but they Condemned and made such a big fuss about Mariam being born ..."
Well, in Islam marrying more than one wife is not a sin, see how I used not a sin instead of allowed.
Islam bloomed in the Arab area around 1500 years ago. In this era, men depended on travelling and selling goods to make a living, hence they married more than one woman in each city they travelled to! It was normal to find an Arab man married to more than 20 wives plus the slaves... what a life!
However, in Islam, to solve this issue, a man cannot marry more than 4 wives at the same time.. and there're several conditions, first all your current wives must happily accept your action :D second, you MUST be able to treat all wives exactly the same. that is, you have to love them all and show affection in the same way, and buy them the same gifts. which makes it practically impossible.
Islam used the method of not making actions a sin while putting impractical conditions as a way to limit the wrong action as the society matures.. the same method appears for slavery, Islam did not ban it, while it banned selling oneself or selling your children as slaves. and if you have a child from a slave, the newborn and his mother cannot be slaves anymore. and for many sins in Islam, freeing a slave is a possible remedy.
Problem is, twisted people describe the religion from a perverted perspective to allow them selves to achieve their unethical goals, like what Rasheed has done throughout the story.
Mariam's father had three wives and ten children but they Condemned and made such a big fuss about Mariam being born ..."
Well, in Islam marrying more than one wife is not a sin, see how I used not a sin instead of allowed.
Islam bloomed in the Arab area around 1500 years ago. In this era, men depended on travelling and selling goods to make a living, hence they married more than one woman in each city they travelled to! It was normal to find an Arab man married to more than 20 wives plus the slaves... what a life!
However, in Islam, to solve this issue, a man cannot marry more than 4 wives at the same time.. and there're several conditions, first all your current wives must happily accept your action :D second, you MUST be able to treat all wives exactly the same. that is, you have to love them all and show affection in the same way, and buy them the same gifts. which makes it practically impossible.
Islam used the method of not making actions a sin while putting impractical conditions as a way to limit the wrong action as the society matures.. the same method appears for slavery, Islam did not ban it, while it banned selling oneself or selling your children as slaves. and if you have a child from a slave, the newborn and his mother cannot be slaves anymore. and for many sins in Islam, freeing a slave is a possible remedy.
Problem is, twisted people describe the religion from a perverted perspective to allow them selves to achieve their unethical goals, like what Rasheed has done throughout the story.
The practice of polygamy goes back beyond Islam. Many cultures practice it (ancient China etc). Even today Muslims aren't the only ones who practice it.
The Qur'an does allow polygyny, however there are several conditions that the husband must meet before and during taking more than 1 wife.
The practice was justified during the early times of Islam, as back then many Muslim men died during war, thus leaving widows with children. To help this widows and their children, polygyny was allowed. Mind you, in those times, many women didn't have the means to support themselves.
Most moderate Muslims nowadays don't practice it anymore, even though it is still allowed.
The Qur'an does allow polygyny, however there are several conditions that the husband must meet before and during taking more than 1 wife.
The practice was justified during the early times of Islam, as back then many Muslim men died during war, thus leaving widows with children. To help this widows and their children, polygyny was allowed. Mind you, in those times, many women didn't have the means to support themselves.
Most moderate Muslims nowadays don't practice it anymore, even though it is still allowed.
Sailors have been doing it for years, regardless of religious affiliation.
Dear all,
we live in a time when people can go to opposite sex bathroom because it's better for them. We have legal same sex marriages. We celebrate diversity. Thus, I don't see a problem with multiple marriages as long as it is an option available for all people, not for males only.
we live in a time when people can go to opposite sex bathroom because it's better for them. We have legal same sex marriages. We celebrate diversity. Thus, I don't see a problem with multiple marriages as long as it is an option available for all people, not for males only.
Here is the name of another novel that deals with the very subject of multiple wives, set in Saudi Arabia, and the Muslim faith and culture. It's a beautiful, complex novel. I highly recommend it! THE RUINS OF US by Keija Parssinen.
This is NOT a Right or Wrong question I guess.
Some religios groups allow you to have a second wife so NOT going around that road and in context to the novel, I believe that Rasheed shouldn't have married the second girl because his intentions were not all good (He Married her for A Baby Boy,which Mariam couldn't give him )
So Yeah! In context to the novel Raheed marrying the secong Girl isn't justified.
Some religios groups allow you to have a second wife so NOT going around that road and in context to the novel, I believe that Rasheed shouldn't have married the second girl because his intentions were not all good (He Married her for A Baby Boy,which Mariam couldn't give him )
So Yeah! In context to the novel Raheed marrying the secong Girl isn't justified.
From an Islamic perspective, there isn't anything wrong with polygamy. It was sanctioned by the Quran after many fleeing converts to Islam were left desolate in Medina. Though, there are several restrictions on polygamy, both in the contemporary Muslim world and back in Prophet Muhammad's time as well.
The verse that deals with polygamy explicitly prefers monogamy because the Quran says that is more than enough for men to handle and would avoid any injustice. Muslim men have the permission to keep four wives, but to maintain a Muslim marriage from a religious viewpoint is very difficult; all four wives and their offspring are by law bound to inheritance whether the marriage exists or not, all four wives must be treated equally, all four wives must be financially (and sexually) be kept satisfied lest they divorce.
Then again, like with Mariam and her husband, there's no Islamic obligation to consult wives before getting married to some other woman. That having been said, marriages happening without the knowledge of already existing wives equals adultery, a criminal act punishable in several Muslim countries which also include Afghanistan. Though Islam forbids injustice to wives, the Prophet Muhammad himself dearly loved his most powerful wife Ayesha bint Abu Bakr the most, and this was overt, which would mean Islam's prohibitions regarding injustice are rather financial and practical in nature rather than expecting Muslims to love four women with the same depth and emotion at the same time. Also, if the first wife does not accept a polygamous relationship, she can get a divorce much easier than in contemporary Western society, since it basically only involves her saying "I seek refuge with God from thee" to her husband, inform the cleric of her decision and begin a mandatory process in which the cleric and the couple's relatives attempt to call a truce, which if fails, ends the marriage. All children of the marriage who have not attained puberty are sent with the mother, while the rest are given an option. The Iranian film "A Separation" highlights this process, albeit it is a divorce that begins as a bluff to persuade an Iranian woman's husband to immigrate to Europe. Note that a women divorcing from a man and a man divorcing from a woman are two very different things in Islam with different procedures.
This is all a pretty utopian Muslim example of a polygamy and Islam. Our Mother Ayesha bint Abu Bakr was a very jealous woman, for she shares her title along with 9 other women, but that did not lessen her love for the Prophet or cause her commitment to justice and Islam to waver. In fact, she fought a war against the fourth Caliph when he let the murderers of the third Caliph free. Polygamy in contemporary Muslim society is only prevalent among much richer households; Arab Gulf households have the highest polygamy in the Muslim world, and are pretty tolerant of divorce and have liberal attitudes towards marriage (except Saudi Arabia), Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi households view polygamy with a sense of scandal, since many people in these countries are too poor to afford two households. Warlords and politicians in Afghanistan have multiple wives, along with many immigrants in the United Kingdom being polygamous too.
As much as it is associated with Muslims, the concept of non-monogamous love is probably more prevalent in the West than it is in the Muslim world, except that over there it takes an illegitimate form.
Illegitimate children like Mariam by the way, are not supposed to be treated differently than legitimate children. They cannot inherit from their biological fathers however, and inherit their mother's name instead. The Prophet Muhammad explicitly forbade calling illegitimate children 'bastards' because he believed they were not the ones to blame for the sins of their parents, and the Quran echoes the same concept of responsibility of sin being solely on the sinner rather than parents or offspring.
Mormon and Muslim cultures are very different. Mormon wives reside in the same household with one man, something not acceptable to Muslim women. Also, Muslim women have a concept of bride-price (basically dowry in reverse) that has to be paid before marriage. This can be incredibly extravagant or as simple as a delicate gift, but just makes it more clear that its very difficult for regular Muslim men to marry repeatedly and get away with it.
The verse that deals with polygamy explicitly prefers monogamy because the Quran says that is more than enough for men to handle and would avoid any injustice. Muslim men have the permission to keep four wives, but to maintain a Muslim marriage from a religious viewpoint is very difficult; all four wives and their offspring are by law bound to inheritance whether the marriage exists or not, all four wives must be treated equally, all four wives must be financially (and sexually) be kept satisfied lest they divorce.
Then again, like with Mariam and her husband, there's no Islamic obligation to consult wives before getting married to some other woman. That having been said, marriages happening without the knowledge of already existing wives equals adultery, a criminal act punishable in several Muslim countries which also include Afghanistan. Though Islam forbids injustice to wives, the Prophet Muhammad himself dearly loved his most powerful wife Ayesha bint Abu Bakr the most, and this was overt, which would mean Islam's prohibitions regarding injustice are rather financial and practical in nature rather than expecting Muslims to love four women with the same depth and emotion at the same time. Also, if the first wife does not accept a polygamous relationship, she can get a divorce much easier than in contemporary Western society, since it basically only involves her saying "I seek refuge with God from thee" to her husband, inform the cleric of her decision and begin a mandatory process in which the cleric and the couple's relatives attempt to call a truce, which if fails, ends the marriage. All children of the marriage who have not attained puberty are sent with the mother, while the rest are given an option. The Iranian film "A Separation" highlights this process, albeit it is a divorce that begins as a bluff to persuade an Iranian woman's husband to immigrate to Europe. Note that a women divorcing from a man and a man divorcing from a woman are two very different things in Islam with different procedures.
This is all a pretty utopian Muslim example of a polygamy and Islam. Our Mother Ayesha bint Abu Bakr was a very jealous woman, for she shares her title along with 9 other women, but that did not lessen her love for the Prophet or cause her commitment to justice and Islam to waver. In fact, she fought a war against the fourth Caliph when he let the murderers of the third Caliph free. Polygamy in contemporary Muslim society is only prevalent among much richer households; Arab Gulf households have the highest polygamy in the Muslim world, and are pretty tolerant of divorce and have liberal attitudes towards marriage (except Saudi Arabia), Pakistani, Indian and Bangladeshi households view polygamy with a sense of scandal, since many people in these countries are too poor to afford two households. Warlords and politicians in Afghanistan have multiple wives, along with many immigrants in the United Kingdom being polygamous too.
As much as it is associated with Muslims, the concept of non-monogamous love is probably more prevalent in the West than it is in the Muslim world, except that over there it takes an illegitimate form.
Illegitimate children like Mariam by the way, are not supposed to be treated differently than legitimate children. They cannot inherit from their biological fathers however, and inherit their mother's name instead. The Prophet Muhammad explicitly forbade calling illegitimate children 'bastards' because he believed they were not the ones to blame for the sins of their parents, and the Quran echoes the same concept of responsibility of sin being solely on the sinner rather than parents or offspring.
Mormon and Muslim cultures are very different. Mormon wives reside in the same household with one man, something not acceptable to Muslim women. Also, Muslim women have a concept of bride-price (basically dowry in reverse) that has to be paid before marriage. This can be incredibly extravagant or as simple as a delicate gift, but just makes it more clear that its very difficult for regular Muslim men to marry repeatedly and get away with it.
Two points strike me:
We are talking about a culture where maternity & infant mortality rates were huge so there is some logic to more than one wife. (SOME I said!)
Also, I'm no expert but my understanding of Islam is that a man can have up to four wives provided he can treat all of them absolutely equally. If a man were to meet that stipulation I'd argue he'd be a fairly unique example of the species. But I could be wrong.
We are talking about a culture where maternity & infant mortality rates were huge so there is some logic to more than one wife. (SOME I said!)
Also, I'm no expert but my understanding of Islam is that a man can have up to four wives provided he can treat all of them absolutely equally. If a man were to meet that stipulation I'd argue he'd be a fairly unique example of the species. But I could be wrong.
From my perspective it is wrong to have more spouses than one, but it doesn't have to mean it is wrong in general. Different cultures have different customs and different point of few. As long as all of those customs don't endanger people's quality of life, their freedom etc, it's fine by me.
I was reading about early man someplace, and it mentioned that war in those days wasn't about land. A tribe would raid another tribe to steal its women. The chief or the headman got his pick of the women, and he had more than one wife, but he had to keep up the morale of his men, and the only way to do that was to find them wives.
Some Mormon cultures still say it is okay to have more than one wife. In my fantasies, I would have a harem of beautiful women, but in reality, it is hard enough to have one wife, let alone have two or more. A lot of these "fictions" are traced to actual life. I think some Muslims do practice muliple marriages. Some cults still do it.
You're so wrong about relating that cultural issue to the religion.I'm a Muslim and I can absolutely assure you that neither my religion nor Quran lets such ties.
It's completely the part of the custom in that society.Yet,this custom is applied in a very small part of that society.
In Turkey,I know some examples-especially in the eastern part-but such ties are not official because the laws forbid having more than one husband/wife.It's hard to explain the underlying reason for it because the family ties are pretty complex in those societies.Mostly,the reason is to protect the women since most of them don't have jobs or any insurance in life.
Pff...
I think to get a better and clearer idea about the issue,you should come and experience yourself :)
It's completely the part of the custom in that society.Yet,this custom is applied in a very small part of that society.
In Turkey,I know some examples-especially in the eastern part-but such ties are not official because the laws forbid having more than one husband/wife.It's hard to explain the underlying reason for it because the family ties are pretty complex in those societies.Mostly,the reason is to protect the women since most of them don't have jobs or any insurance in life.
Pff...
I think to get a better and clearer idea about the issue,you should come and experience yourself :)
I don't think there's anything wrong or unnatural about polyamory. Parents can love more than one child at the same time, so why is it "wrong" for consenting adults to have romantic love for more than one person at the same time? It is illogical for one type of love to be finite and another to be infinite. It's the concept of monogamous marriage that is the artificial construct that has been forced on human mores over time. And it clearly doesn't "fit" very well, or divorce and extramarital affairs wouldn't be such a common problem.
This is a tricky topic, considering I'm not a part of the culture in question. But I believe that if everyone involved is a consenting adult, then perhaps it's okay? Plural marriages are practiced around the world, and have been around for many years. I'd like to think that not all of them are like the ones portrayed in this book.
This is all a matter of perspective, honestly. You can't condemn a culture that you are not a part of. Also, I'd like to point out that this is a tradition going back ages. Is is morally just? That's not for me, having not been born in a culture that does not accept this, to decide.
That being said, though, how they treat Mariam is not justified by culture. That is a matter of human rights, and not just cultural tradition. You cannot condemn a child for the actions of her parent. I'm sorry, but I cannot be open minded on that subject. That is wrong.
That being said, though, how they treat Mariam is not justified by culture. That is a matter of human rights, and not just cultural tradition. You cannot condemn a child for the actions of her parent. I'm sorry, but I cannot be open minded on that subject. That is wrong.
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Apr 23, 2014 03:06AM · flag