The Song of Achilles and the Iliad - General Discussion (September 2015)

[Casceil]

This thread is for discussion of the relationship between this book and Homer's original story. The author is a classics professor who teaches Greek and Latin, and loves the Iliad. She stays very true to the original, with some relatively minor deviations. The way she took this very old story and made it into a modern novel is a subject that interests me a lot, and I would like to discuss it here.

[Peter]

The Iliad and the Odyssey are the only surviving parts of a larger cycle of epics and poems about the Trojan War (it is generally assumed they survived in part because they were the best, and hence there were more copies made of them). Between these lost poems and later material, the Trojan War has accumulated additional stories that are only mentioned or not even in the two epics. The author makes use of some of these (such as Achilles on Skyros) but not others (Achilles being invulnerable except for his heel).

An interesting contrast or comparison to this book is The Gospel of Loki by Joanne M. Harris which uses the Elder Edda and the Younger Edda (AKA as the Poetic and Prose Eddas) as the basis for her story the way Miller used the Iliad.

[Casceil]

I'm still trying to figure out how to organize this discussion, but here is my current plan. This thread is for discussion of how the author used the Iliad, particularly where she stayed true to the original story and where she made changes.

[Portia]

Would this be the thread to discuss both Patroclus' and Achilles' relationship to women? In the Iliad, Achilles did care what happened to Iphigenia and Briseis. But on what level? How did Patroclus feel about Briseis? I don't remember their having a defined relationship in The Iliad.

[Portia]

Speaking of relationships as I am, I've always been of the opinion that Hector and Achilles were more familiar with each other than Miller presents them, that they had heard over the years of each others' prowess, that the stories traveled back and forth about them. I didn't feel that in the book and was a bit disappointed by that.

[Casceil]

We don't see all that much of Patroclus in the Iliad. He is important to the story because he serves as a catalyst to a major change in the tide of the battle. He is a close friend of Achilles, but there is no hint that their relationship is anything more than that of friends who serve together in war and respect each other. As far as I remember, there is no mention of any relationship between Patroclus and any female, but since the Iliad takes place years into a long battle, there are not many women around except for goddesses and slaves or concubines. Achilles clearly had a physical relationship with Briseus. The last time we see Achilles in the Iliad, he is going to sleep beside Briseus.

As for the relationship between Achilles and Hector, I do not know to what extent they are supposed to have been aware of each other before the Trojan War. During the war, certainly each was aware of the other as presumably the best fighter on their respective sides.

[Peter]

You do wonder how different the Greeks saw the Trojans being from them. In the Iliad the Trojans worship the same Gods as the Greeks, fight with the same weapons and follow pretty much the same customs. There isn't any real feeling that they even spoke a different language.

It makes the war seem somewhat like a war between two branches of the same people, not a war between the Mycenaean Greeks and an essentially very different Anatolian folk. In that context it is easy to see possible Guest-Friendships (Xenia) between Mycenaean Greek and Trojan nobles, and thus rumors of Hector's and Achilles' prowess could reach each other.

[Lily]

Hector is also the brother of Paris, who had "stolen" Helen. Both are members of an aristocratic, if not the ruling family (I forget the details), so to the extent that family relationships and memberships were closely followed, Hector's existence and prowess has a possibility of being known, as apparently was the legend of Achilles and Patroclus as great warriors to the Trojans. (I can't quote specific lines and verse to support that view without a lot more work than I am willing to do here. The evidence may be more in the stories where Paris meets Helen -- who were present during that event.)

[Lily]

Casceil wrote: "...He is a close friend of Achilles, but there is no hint that their relationship is anything more than that of friends who serve together in war and respect each other...."

Certainly at least modern filmmakers have turned to knowledge of Greek practices of male friendship to imply a possible physical and sexual relationship between Patroclus and Achilles. Whether that is supported by the Iliad itself, the scholars and academicians can debate (as well as all other readers :-0). It would be consistent for female relationships to be present as well. Probably soldiers have never been known to go long without them, whether in war or peace.

The arguments are long and vociferous about the source of Achilles' anger in the Iliad. Were they primarily about the wound to his honor when Agamemnon took Briseis? Did Achilles call down Agamemnon on himself by instigating the return of Chryseis?

(Somehow, I am reminded of Trump, Bush, and Fiorina in the debates Wednesday night.)

I just reread the long exchange between Agamemnon and Achilles when Chryseis is returned (Pope translation, I believe). Let me see if Goodreads will permit putting it in a single spoiler:

[Lily]

Excerpt from the Iliad: (view spoiler)[

(Agamemnon speaking.)
But since for common good I yield the fair,
My private loss let grateful Greece repair;
Nor unrewarded let your prince complain,
That he alone has fought and bled in vain."

"Insatiate king (Achilles thus replies),
Fond of the power, but fonder of the prize!
Would'st thou the Greeks their lawful prey should yield,
The due reward of many a well-fought field?
The spoils of cities razed and warriors slain,
We share with justice, as with toil we gain;
But to resume whate'er thy avarice craves
(That trick of tyrants) may be borne by slaves.
Yet if our chief for plunder only fight,
The spoils of Ilion shall thy loss requite,
Whene'er, by Jove's decree, our conquering powers
Shall humble to the dust her lofty towers."

Then thus the king: "Shall I my prize resign
With tame content, and thou possess'd of thine?
Great as thou art, and like a god in fight,
Think not to rob me of a soldier's right.
At thy demand shall I restore the maid?
First let the just equivalent be paid;
Such as a king might ask; and let it be
A treasure worthy her, and worthy me.
Or grant me this, or with a monarch's claim
This hand shall seize some other captive dame.
The mighty Ajax shall his prize resign;(55)
Ulysses' spoils, or even thy own, be mine.
The man who suffers, loudly may complain;
And rage he may, but he shall rage in vain.
But this when time requires.--It now remains
We launch a bark to plough the watery plains,
And waft the sacrifice to Chrysa's shores,
With chosen pilots, and with labouring oars.
Soon shall the fair the sable ship ascend,
And some deputed prince the charge attend:
This Creta's king, or Ajax shall fulfil,
Or wise Ulysses see perform'd our will;
Or, if our royal pleasure shall ordain,
Achilles' self conduct her o'er the main;
Let fierce Achilles, dreadful in his rage,
The god propitiate, and the pest assuage."

[Illustration: MARS.]

MARS.


At this, Pelides, frowning stern, replied:
"O tyrant, arm'd with insolence and pride!
Inglorious slave to interest, ever join'd
With fraud, unworthy of a royal mind!
What generous Greek, obedient to thy word,
Shall form an ambush, or shall lift the sword?
What cause have I to war at thy decree?
The distant Trojans never injured me;
To Phthia's realms no hostile troops they led:
Safe in her vales my warlike coursers fed;
Far hence removed, the hoarse-resounding main,
And walls of rocks, secure my native reign,
Whose fruitful soil luxuriant harvests grace,
Rich in her fruits, and in her martial race.
Hither we sail'd, a voluntary throng,
To avenge a private, not a public wrong:
What else to Troy the assembled nations draws,
But thine, ungrateful, and thy brother's cause?
Is this the pay our blood and toils deserve;
Disgraced and injured by the man we serve?
And darest thou threat to snatch my prize away,
Due to the deeds of many a dreadful day?
A prize as small, O tyrant! match'd with thine,
As thy own actions if compared to mine.
Thine in each conquest is the wealthy prey,
Though mine the sweat and danger of the day.
Some trivial present to my ships I bear:
Or barren praises pay the wounds of war.
But know, proud monarch, I'm thy slave no more;
My fleet shall waft me to Thessalia's shore:
Left by Achilles on the Trojan plain,
What spoils, what conquests, shall Atrides gain?"

To this the king: "Fly, mighty warrior! fly;
Thy aid we need not, and thy threats defy.
There want not chiefs in such a cause to fight,
And Jove himself shall guard a monarch's right.
Of all the kings (the god's distinguish'd care)
To power superior none such hatred bear:
Strife and debate thy restless soul employ,
And wars and horrors are thy savage joy,
If thou hast strength, 'twas Heaven that strength bestow'd;
For know, vain man! thy valour is from God.
Haste, launch thy vessels, fly with speed away;
Rule thy own realms with arbitrary sway;
I heed thee not, but prize at equal rate
Thy short-lived friendship, and thy groundless hate.
Go, threat thy earth-born Myrmidons:--but here(56)
'Tis mine to threaten, prince, and thine to fear.
Know, if the god the beauteous dame demand,
My bark shall waft her to her native land;
But then prepare, imperious prince! prepare,
Fierce as thou art, to yield thy captive fair:
Even in thy tent I'll seize the blooming prize,
Thy loved Briseis with the radiant eyes.
Hence shalt thou prove my might, and curse the hour
Thou stood'st a rival of imperial power;
And hence, to all our hosts it shall be known,
That kings are subject to the gods alone."

Achilles heard, with grief and rage oppress'd,
His heart swell'd high, and labour'd in his breast;
Distracting thoughts by turns his bosom ruled;
Now fired by wrath, and now by reason cool'd:
That prompts his hand to draw the deadly sword,
Force through the Greeks, and pierce their haughty lord;
This whispers soft his vengeance to control,
And calm the rising tempest of his soul.
Just as in anguish of suspense he stay'd,
While half unsheathed appear'd the glittering blade,(57)
Minerva swift descended from above,
Sent by the sister and the wife of Jove
(For both the princes claim'd her equal care);
Behind she stood, and by the golden hair
Achilles seized; to him alone confess'd;
A sable cloud conceal'd her from the rest.
He sees, and sudden to the goddess cries,
Known by the flames that sparkle from her eyes:

[Illustration: MINERVA REPRESSING THE FURY OF ACHILLES.]
MINERVA REPRESSING THE FURY OF ACHILLES.

"Descends Minerva, in her guardian care,
A heavenly witness of the wrongs I bear
From Atreus' son?--Then let those eyes that view
The daring crime, behold the vengeance too."

"Forbear (the progeny of Jove replies)
To calm thy fury I forsake the skies:
Let great Achilles, to the gods resign'd,
To reason yield the empire o'er his mind.
By awful Juno this command is given;
The king and you are both the care of heaven.
The force of keen reproaches let him feel;
But sheathe, obedient, thy revenging steel.
For I pronounce (and trust a heavenly power)
Thy injured honour has its fated hour,
When the proud monarch shall thy arms implores
And bribe thy friendship with a boundless store.
Then let revenge no longer bear the sway;
Command thy passions, and the gods obey."

To her Pelides:--"With regardful ear,
'Tis just, O goddess! I thy dictates hear.
Hard as it is, my vengeance I suppress:
Those who revere the gods the gods will bless."
He said, observant of the blue-eyed maid;
Then in the sheath return'd the shining blade.
The goddess swift to high Olympus flies,
And joins the sacred senate of the skies.

Nor yet the rage his boiling breast forsook,
Which thus redoubling on Atrides broke: "
O monster! mix'd of insolence and fear,
Thou dog in forehead, but in heart a deer!
When wert thou known in ambush'd fights to dare,
Or nobly face the horrid front of war? '
Tis ours, the chance of fighting fields to try;
Thine to look on, and bid the valiant die:
So much 'tis safer through the camp to go,
And rob a subject, than despoil a foe.
Scourge of thy people, violent and base!
Sent in Jove's anger on a slavish race;
Who, lost to sense of generous freedom past,
Are tamed to wrongs;--or this had been thy last.
Now by this sacred sceptre hear me swear,
Which never more shall leaves or blossoms bear,
Which sever'd from the trunk (as I from thee)
On the bare mountains left its parent tree;
This sceptre, form'd by temper'd steel to prove
An ensign of the delegates of Jove,
From whom the power of laws and justice springs
(Tremendous oath! inviolate to kings);
By this I swear:--when bleeding Greece again
Shall call Achilles, she shall call in vain.
When, flush'd with slaughter, Hector comes to spread
The purpled shore with mountains of the dead,
Then shall thou mourn the affront thy madness gave,
Forced to deplore when impotent to save:
Then rage in bitterness of soul to know
This act has made the bravest Greek thy foe."

He spoke; and furious hurl'd against the ground
His sceptre starr'd with golden studs around:
Then sternly silent sat. With like disdain
The raging king return'd his frowns again.

Homer (2010-12-20). THE ILIAD OF HOMER (non illustrated) (pp. 8-13). . Kindle Edition.
(hide spoiler)]

[Casceil]

Powerful stuff. Thanks, Lily.

[Peter]

Nice quote! (Although I had to stop and think about the date of this translation when I saw the word "dame", and what's with all the Roman god names in a Greek epic?)

[Lily]

Peter wrote: "Nice quote! (Although I had to stop and think about the date of this translation when I saw the word "dame", and what's with all the Roman god names in a Greek epic?)"

Thanks! I thought I might have gone off the deep end, but the back and forth between Agamemnon and Achilles as well as the vacillation between emotion and reason in the arguments struck me so that I didn't know where else to bound it.

My hard copies of the Iliad include Lattimore, Robert Fitzgerald, and Fagles as the translators. But my Kindle copy seems to be Alexander Pope, a quite early translation. (I missed the time the Lattimore edition was on sale.) Pope may well have been translating from Latin texts, suggesting why the Roman names for the gods. (I am guessing here, not fact checking.) I am struck by how lovely the language is, nonetheless. Somehow I remember Pope being praised for his work the last time I read this thing with a group. I get really hung up on some of the warrior battles, but passages of this thing remain so incredible, one really can revisit them every two to five years and have access to deeper understandings.