Westerfeld, Scott - Specials (Uglies #3) - Informal Buddy Read; Start September 2nd, 2015

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

This topic is open for discussion about Specials by Scott Westerfeld




Book synopsis:
"Special Circumstances": The words have sent chills down Tally's spine since her days as a repellent, rebellious ugly. Back then Specials were a sinister rumor -- frighteningly beautiful, dangerously strong, breathtakingly fast. Ordinary pretties might live their whole lives without meeting a Special. But Tally's never been ordinary.

And now she's been turned into one of them: a superamped fighting machine, engineered to keep the uglies down and the pretties stupid.

The strength, the speed, and the clarity and focus of her thinking feel better than anything Tally can remember. Most of the time. One tiny corner of her heart still remembers something more.

Still, it's easy to tune that out -- until Tally's offered a chance to stamp out the rebels of the New Smoke permanently. It all comes down to one last choice: listen to that tiny, faint heartbeat, or carry out the mission she's programmed to complete. Either way, Tally's world will never be the same.

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

r

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

r

[Sully]

Up to Chapter 2 (pg 22)

Westefeld does it again. We've gone through a small time lapse since the end of Pretties, and we are left with a few questions right off the bat. For example, what the heck happened to Zane??? We start off with Shay and Tally and some of the Cutters, but we are left with questions about our favorite character introduced in the last book (and perhaps our favorite character in the series).

Also, it looks like the Specials surgery does some of the same things that the Pretties operation did. (view spoiler)[It appears they have reworked some of Tally's memories again (hide spoiler)]. This might explain why they weren't so considered with reaching out to people with problems with authority. (view spoiler)[Sounds like they make you forget you had this issue and rewire your brain - sans lesion this time (hide spoiler)].

One of the issues I have off the bat is what Westerfeld reveals about the surgery. Somehow, they managed to remove all her bones and muscles and replaced them with superior, man made materials? I realize perhaps the technology will arrive somehow, someday in the future. But to me in present day, this just seems completely unrealistic.

[Emily]

Up to Chapter 2- "Hunters and Prey" (pg. 22)

I agree that the physical surgery sounds completely unrealistic. Even if medical technology advanced a ton and it was possible to create a body out of man-made materials, the time, cost, and risk to the patient's life it would take to achieve something like that would be absolutely astronomical!
But what's driving me absolutely insane, is that (view spoiler)[rewiring Tally's brain like that would simply be impossible, to my understanding, even with crazy-advanced technology and expertise about the brain (although I'm not in any way that knowledgable about this). Not that the lesions were overly realistic, but this is just ridiculous, IMO. A brain is not like a computer where you can reprogram it however you want- it's incredibly delicate and complex. For one thing, I don't see how you could remove emotion from memories without destroying them. From what I understand, we remember things from our POV, with our emotions and beliefs and perspectives all mixed up with what our senses told us. So her remembering David, but somehow viewing him as an enemy- that just doesn't make any kind of sense to me, even in a sci-fi situation. And them managing to completely change her beliefs and priorities, from possibly wanting to help the New Smoke challenge the cities' authority and cure those with the lesions (although she never really thought too far ahead in Pretties, which bugged me, but maybe it was because she wasn't really cured) to hunting down the New Smokies trying to do just that- I think it would have turned her brain to mush. (hide spoiler)]
I think I would have found the story much more interesting without (view spoiler)[the Special surgery having changed Tally's brain. With, instead, her struggling with what she has become and fighting against what she's now expected to do. (hide spoiler)] This just seems so similar to the last book.
Sorry, rant over. Now, despite the fact that I find this situation absurd, I'm going to try and suspend my disbelief and go with where the book takes me. It is, after all, fiction ;)

I'm finding the writing in this book to be an improvement over the last two to some degree. I thought the descriptions of how Tally feels "icy" in the opening paragraphs were well done.

[Sully]

Emily wrote: "Up to Chapter 2- "Hunters and Prey" (pg. 22)

I agree that the physical surgery sounds completely unrealistic. Even if medical technology advanced a ton and it was possible to create a body out of man-made materials, the time, cost, and risk to the patient's life it would take to achieve something like that would be absolutely astronomical!"

What I thought of last night while trying to sleep is if they have all the crazy technology to perform these types of medical procedures, why wouldn't they just make robots? They obviously have the materials and knowledge (even on programming it appear) and they would wipe out the need to worry about any resistance to authority. For Specials, at least, this makes wayyyyyy more sense to me. Why did deal humans and all their faults when you could just have robots chasing down the Smoke? And to your point about rewiring the brain! That really doesn't make much sense either (and again, wouldn't be needed with a robot!)

I think I was able to enjoy these books a lot more a decade ago when they came out because my brain didn't think of these things then =)


Emily wrote: "This just seems so similar to the last book.
Sorry, rant over. Now, despite the fact that I find this situation absurd, I'm going to try and suspend my disbelief and go with where the book takes me. It is, after all, fiction ;)"

I do hope the plot works out where that duality comes back to Tally, similar in the last book, so that we can see some internal struggle and get some original content instead of using elements from the first two novels again.

[Emily]

I love the robot idea! You're right, it does seem like they would have the technology, considering they have "smart" everything. And while it would still be expensive and difficult to build robots to hunt down the Smoke, I bet it would be cheaper and easier than creating Specials.

I do think this is a YA series that doesn't necessarily carry over to an adult audience as well as many YA books published more recently. Maybe it's just that YA as a genre has really developed and progressed a lot over the past decade.


Up to Chapter 6- "New Pretty Town" (pg. 67)

Trigger Warning: Self-harm
I'm really not liking how this is romanticizing and seeming to approve of self-harm- cutting and even branding, etc. I could excuse it in the last book because it made some sense both with how the lesions and being "bubbly" seemed to work and with Shay's angry, upset mind-set at the time. But the fact that Tally is now participating, that they are still doing it after becoming Specials, that it's such a central part of their group activities (to the point where they even call themselves "the Cutters")- I don't find this ok for a YA book considering how it's being treated. It would be one thing if this book really addressed and dealt with the topic of self-harm in a serious way, but I doubt that will be the case given the tone of the series.

I don't really understand Tally throughout this series. It's like she has two sides- one where she just wants to conform and fit in and one where she wants to change things and fight the system. She's always switching her priorities between the two, so I can never completely figure out if she's coming or going.

This might be the stupidest thing a character has ever said in a book I've read: "wishing bad luck and destruction down on David, the Smokies, and whoever it was who’d first invented freezing water." ;)

[Sully]

Up to New Pretty Town (pg 68)

Yeah, I am not a big fan of the Cutters cult either. It would have been one thing if it was the only way to get "bubbly"/"icy" and it was handled better. But Tally made herself "bubbly" by just kissing Zane a lot of the time, and but doing pranks. If the Special assignments are even more adrenaline rushing than playing pranks, why is there a need for cutting at all?

Tally's character is a bit like Shay's I think - her characterization is flexible based on where the plot wants to go. There's only so much you can change with these brain rewirings. She should have a little bit of consistency. The one thing that seems constant - for now, at least - is her feelings for Zane.

Speaking of Zane, I'm a little bit worried! =(

[Sully]

Up to The Cut (pg 91)

Zane. (view spoiler)[Oh, Zane. All he ever wanted was to be redeemed, and look where that got him. And yet, he doesn't even complain. Not for a second. He doesn't place blame, he doesn't point fingers. Instead, he is still working for the cause, covering for the others. I <3 him so much right now. (hide spoiler)].

And then Tally. I think she just hit a new all time low for me when she says (view spoiler)[that she can't be with him... not the way he is now. She's been superficial/shallow in the past, but that drove the stake all the way in. I was floored by how easily she says it. (hide spoiler)] This is an odd series where you have a main character who isn't very likable. She has her moments when you think she's turning around for the better, but then there are moments like this that just make her so hard to like.

What do you think about (view spoiler)[the amount of nanos they are sneaking into the city? It does seem too much for the New Smoke to be doing themselves. Do you think maybe another city is helping them out, or at least a rebel group within another city? It makes we wonder, though, why Special Circumstances hasn't noticed that hundreds of Pretties are suddenly thinking for themselves. Wouldn't that be kind of obvious? (hide spoiler)]

[Emily]

Up to "The Cut" (pg. 91)

Wow, yeah, I'm really not a Tally fan right now. (view spoiler)[I thought maybe she had finally gotten over her fickleness in at least one respect, since her feelings for Zane seemed intact, but clearly I was wrong. I mean, he became slightly disabled essentially because of her (even if it was an accident), but now she looks down on him for it? Her shallowness has definitley reached a new low. And she wants him to betray the Smoke- does she not remember what it was like when Dr. Cable forced her to do the same and how she decided not to do so (even if she inadvertently lead them to it anyways)? Poor Zane :( (hide spoiler)] I'm not understanding Tally's character, and as a result, this book at all. Zane is the only redeeming factor for me right now.

(view spoiler)[SOMEONE has to be helping them produce the nanos from within one of the cities. I have thoughts ranging from it somehow being Az to another doctor Maddy knew from this city to the Rangers we met in the first book. The fact that the Smokies now have sneak suits make me wonder if they've turned someone/have an ally in Special Circumstances. As for SC not noticing, if I was Zane/ the Crims/ the Smokies, I'd be distributing the pills among all levels of the city's society, not just the new pretties, so that I would have potential clear-thinking allies in various positions and jobs and so that it would be less obvious. And maybe they've managed to impress on almost all those who've taken the pills the need to continue to act "bubble-headed." But yeah, it's still a bit of a plot hole (unless it gets explained later). (hide spoiler)]

[Emily]

Up to Part II (pg.136)
Well, at least we got some pretty great sci-fi action scenes there for our trouble :)
Is it just me, or does it seem like (view spoiler)[Shay is up to something? That seemed like a lot of trouble just to get something to get Zane's collar off. I wonder what else Shay might have stolen out of the armory with. (hide spoiler)]

[Sully]

Up to Flight (pg 128)

I fell a little bit behind today, but only by a few pages! =)

I was thinking that same thing. The whole scenes in the "Armory" were pretty intense, although I couldn't help but thinking (view spoiler)[that they do work for Special Circumstances, after all, even if they are their own division. And their whole intent behind taking Zane to the Smoke is to rat out their location. So it would seem like there would be other ways to get their hands on the equipment. And I feel like Westerfeld tried to explain it a little bit, but not to my satisfaction. (hide spoiler)] Still, I loved the social commentary we get here again, this time on the weapons we use and the technology we have developed for the sole purpose of destroying each other which, let's face it, is completely terrifying.

... and then I just read what you had under the spoiler tag, and it seems we both had the same gut reaction! It will definitely be interesting to see where it leads from here.

[Sully]

Up to Incompetence (pg 173)

Gods alive, Tally, make up your mind! Though I found it a little endearing that (view spoiler)[Tally insists on staying behind to watch over Zane and make sure he is ok, it again just makes the flip-flop of her personality turn again. First, she can't be with him, not until he's Special/fixed? And now, she refuses to stop being his guardian angel, watching him and protecting him from the sidelines? Have to say, it is a little annoying, this constant back and forth in her personality. (hide spoiler)] Still, I like this side of Tally better than the side we were seeing before. So, silver lining =)

It also appears the new "bubbly" is "icy". That word is definitely getting overused in this book.

[Emily]

You're right, the social commentary on weapons was well done. The author managed to slip it in there pretty naturally, so I didn't really think about it till you pointed it out. And yes, that's very terrifying.


Up to "Incompetence" (pg. 173)

Tally and Shay are really not impressing me with their immaturity. (view spoiler)[They now see all the destruction and disruption they caused as just a joke and no big deal, some funny "trick"? It seems like a real possibility that they could have blown the whole city up if the "hungry" nanos had reached the bombs stored below the Armory or at least killed the curator guy. As it is, they destroyed irreplaceable things and caused a huge amount of damage, which they should take seriously, IMO. (hide spoiler)]

It's interesting to think about what might happen if everyone in the city is cured of the lesions. The city is so totally unprepared. The commentary on human nature is perceptive at points, without getting too preachy. Obviously, I don't think messing with anyone's brain is the way to go, but humans do have a tendency to destroy as well as create. The lesions don't seem to get rid of the inclination towards wastefulness or irresponsibility necessarily, given the was the new pretties live (in fact, they almost seem to prevent people from being truly responsible for their own lives). Instead, the lesions just make people so compliant that those who manage everything can keep everyone's impulses under control. I wonder if the city has a way of insuring that those in charge (above even Special Circumstances) always behave responsibly.

I was quite surprised by (view spoiler)[the reappearance of Andrew. At first, him having joined up with the Smokies seemed really far fetched, but the explanation actually ended up making sense and holding together to me. (hide spoiler)]

This time around, I don't really agree with (view spoiler)[what Shay says during their fight. Tally and Shay just have different priorities, and Shay can't accept that. Tally's back and forth is very annoying, but I like the fact that she's now feeling protective of Zane. So, as you said, silver lining. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, icy is way overused. Say what you mean, instead of just sticking a slang word in there!

[Emily]

Up to "Reunion" (pg. 234)

Ugh!!! And now Tally is taking no responsibility for her actions or accountability for anything that has happened, acting like she's the victim in all of this. I'm certainly not saying everything has been Tally's fault or that she hasn't had some bad luck, but there are always choices. It's like the author is basing Tally off a list of the qualities that I hate most in characters (irresponsibility, immaturity, shallowness, fickleness, not being portrayed consistently, not taking responsibility for his/her own actions, not taking charge of his/her own life, lack of loyalty, going along with peer pressure, etc.)

(view spoiler)[Diego is really interesting- how the author imagines a futuristic city minus the lesions. I liked this quote: "Without the lesions making everyone agreeable, society was left roiling in a constant battle of words, images, and ideas."
I certainly hope, however, that we never get to a point as a society where people have extreme plastic surgery solely as a fashion statement. It's still SURGERY, and there are inherent risks. Do you think Diego is at all realistic as a reflection of our society's future?
I'm wondering about the geography of all this. A mention of Death Valley in this book finally told me that Tally's city is in California. So I wonder if the Rusty Ruins are supposed to be Los Angeles? Tally seems to think that they've travelled really far south into like Central America to get to Diego, but that seemed unrealistic to me. So I wonder if Diego is essentially the futuristic version of San Diego. What do you think? (hide spoiler)]

What do you think the deal is (view spoiler)[with Fausto? I wondered at the time if he wasn't so much kidnapped as rescued with his permission. (hide spoiler)]

[Sully]

Up to Reunion (pg 234)

Yeah, it's funny because I loved this series when I first read it way back when, but the one thing I distinctly remember is that I was never very fond of Tally. She is one of those main characters that are hard to embrace, and that you kind of hate.

What got to me was when she was (view spoiler)[hanging onto the bottom of the helicopter by her crash bracelets. Now, I don't know what a helicopter maxes out at speed wise, and I haven't done any calculations, but I have to think at that speed/with that much force/inertia, it would have completely dislocated her shoulders, aircraft ceramic bones or not. Joints are just not meant to take that kind of stress! (hide spoiler)]

I also kind of wondered where abouts New Pretty Town was located, since it takes place in futuristic America. Thanks to the descriptions (view spoiler)[on Tally's way to the New Smoke (as well as the name of the New Smoke location), I figured out it was Cali. Kind of interesting that even in this futuristic world, they still keep building cities in places known for severe droughts/lack of water. I figure the city she grew up in is either LA or San Fran/San Jose, but definitely think Diego is San Diego. I'm thinking her original city is more likely to be San Fran/San Jose area, since she talks about the mountains changing as she heads south. Not sure how many mountains are near LA (never been there). (hide spoiler)]

What I find interesting as you talk about (view spoiler)[Diego (hide spoiler)] is that it reminds me a bit of the Capital in Hunger Games. (view spoiler)[Everyone is pushing for the latest "trend", including crazy looking hair color, styles etc. It isn't that hard to believe people would go as far as to include surgery in that as well (just look at how much surgery we do now with breast implants, nose jobs, even injecting pig fat in lips to make them look bigger). In a way, it feels like just a little more drastic version of what people already do, and might be another social commentary on behalf of the author. I never thought people would spend so much time and money on the surgeries people already get (especially celebrities who want to keep their youthful appearance). (hide spoiler)]

Not sure what to think about (view spoiler)[Fausto, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was either kidnapped but then went along with the procedure willingly or if he was in on it from the start. (hide spoiler)]

I also think (view spoiler)[Diego might be a bit of foreshadowing for what might happen in Tally's city with the nano pills flooding in by the hundreds now. With the shift from "bubblehead" to "bubbly" so quickly for thousands of people, some of that chaos you mentioned in the quote (which I also liked) is bound to show up there as well (hide spoiler)]

[Emily]

Up to Part III (pg. 278)

(view spoiler)[So I guess we now know why the author had Tally and Shay break into the Armory- it was crucial to the plot by starting this war. But if Tally's city was so willing to attack Diego, and there weren't any safeguards to prevent Dr. Cable from doing so, it seems strange to me that there wouldn't have been a war between any of the cities before now. (hide spoiler)]

Considering how unbelievable we found the physical surgery making Tally special in the first place, (view spoiler)[the fact that they can supposedly reverse it seems ridiculous. I mean, it's not like they can get her original bones back, so what, they're going to replace her ceramic bones with some weaker man-made material? That doesn't make sense on several levels. (hide spoiler)]

I'm totally with you on (view spoiler)[her hanging off the helicopter by her crash bracelets. That was a very unrealistic scene. And then when she jumped off the cliff, same thing. I definitely think both those things would dislocate her shoulders. (hide spoiler)]

Just FYI, (view spoiler)[there are some "mountains" near the eastern edge of the greater LA area. Not necessarily what I would call mountains, being from Colorado, but still. ;) but you're right, given how long they traveled for, the San Fransisco/ San Jose area makes more sense for the location of Tally's city. You make a great point about the water issue in those areas; although maybe with a much smaller population, it isn't such a problem. Also, earthquakes! With CA slowly breaking off from the rest of the continental U.S., aren't the earthquakes supposed to slowly get progressively worse? (hide spoiler)]

I don't think I would have made the connection between the Capital from The Hunger Games and (view spoiler)[Diego, but you're right there are some definite similarities! I certainly think there's some social commentary going on here with all the body modifications. However, that commentary isn't necessarily all negative. After all Diego is, to some degree, the "good" city. I think there's a message that a range of differing appearances and styles is a good thing. (hide spoiler)]

[Emily]

Up to "Going Home" (pg. 308)
(view spoiler)[ZANE!?!?!! So that was very upsetting and unexpected. Although Tally has made another flip (along with Shay) and gotten less annoying again, this is not going how I wanted or thought it would. Now Tally's heading back alone- because she's going to manage to topple the government of her city all by herself? (hide spoiler)]

Shay says: "Thinking like a Special is partly just human nature. It doesn’t take much convincing to make someone believe they’re better than everyone else.” Do you think that's true? I think only to some degree and about some people. Although some individuals certainly think they're superior, I would say a greater percentage of us are plagued with insecurities about ourselves that can be pretty hard to shake.

[Sully]

Up to Part III (pg 278)

Emily wrote: "Up to Part III (pg. 278)

[spoilers removed]."

Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. Especially since in Uglies, Dr. Cable was so intent on (view spoiler)[finding the Smoke that she went through all that trouble of blackmailing Tally to go find it. Wouldn't it have made more since, if there is so much tension between the two cities, that Dr. Cable would have attacked them in order to find the Smoke. But maybe they were hinting that there were safeguards in place, and that the attack on the armory was seen as a threat to their security and thus only then did they allow Dr. Cable to retaliate. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I thought that was ridiculous too. Especially since they apparently don't need consent? And even if they had it, it's just as you said. (view spoiler)[What would they put in her body? And the explanation for why she's so hot-cold/on-off/trigger sensitive is that they put something in a part of her brain that "reprogrammed" her head? That seemed really far fetched as well. I definitely do NOT want to live in this crazy world where people have no consent over their own bodies. (hide spoiler)]

Oh yeah, I didn't even think about (view spoiler)[earthquakes. Doesn't seem like it would be the best place to build cities that have an infrastructure built under the city - the magnetic grids for the hoverboards. Of course, I thought it was crazy they had a subway in San Fran! Perhaps they live in a bit of denial in this future universe. (hide spoiler)]

Yeah, I agree with that. Diversity is important - which is shown a bit here in this book - as I think it makes us unique and can help give us a sense of being our own person, and not just a cog in the machine (like Tally and Shay have become) - as long as others don't treat you poorly because of your diversity.

[Sully]

Up to Going Home (pg 308)

Emily wrote: "Up to "Going Home" (pg. 308)
[spoilers removed]"

This is heart breaking! And yet, maybe not completely unexpected. Shocking, yes, definitely. But it also seems a bit like karma. As Tally points out, (view spoiler)[her actions have caused a lot of repercussions she has never stopped to think about. The librarian/mayor and David's father dying in the Smoke, along with who knows how many else. And then when she and Shay destroy the Armory, and bring war to this city, leaving all the people hurt that need Zane's bed.

If you were Zane, what would you want in this situation? If you knew you wouldn't be able to breathe without a machine, would you want to continue on, hoping that eventually they might be able to find a cure to reverse you? Or would you want them to pull a plug? I ask because my husband and I both agree that is something like this every happened to us, we would want to somehow get to Oregon where we could do "assisted suicide" (which I don't think is the best term for it). I wouldn't want to live without living. (hide spoiler)]


Emily wrote: "Shay says: "Thinking like a Special is partly just human nature. It doesn’t take much convincing to make someone believe they’re better than everyone else.” Do you think that's true? I think only to some degree and about some people. Although some individuals certainly think they're superior, I would say a greater percentage of us are plagued with insecurities about ourselves that can be pretty hard to shake. "

I think it can definitely be true, yes (unfortunately). Have you seen Breaking Bad? I think Walter White is a perfect example of this. He starts out as this mild mannered high school teacher, and by the end.... well, I don't want to spoil it, but the way he transitions is so well done that the man he becomes is completely believable. Also, I don't know if you've seen Fargo (the television series), but it has a similar character that goes that a transition too, though a bit different. I think it's human nature to want to be the best, to be "perfect". I think we fight human nature in order to find humility and grace. And I think we all have that potential deep inside us. I think most of us can fight it, or never feel the need to point it out, even if we do feel superior in some ways. I think other characters (like being humble) can outweigh the need to prove that you are "superior".

But you bring up a great point about being plagued with insecurities. I think this is another characteristic that can overpower Shay's point. As someone going through the process of sending out manuscripts to literary agents, I'm always in constant fear of rejection, even though I know it's coming. But I'd like to think that, should a miracle happen and I get an offer and get published and become the next JK Rowling, I wouldn't let it go to my head. I'd probably still have those some insecurities with every new story I wrote.


I also liked Shay's comment about how they hate each other sometimes, but not all the time, which is why they are friends. That is one messed up friendship in my book.

[Sully]

Up to Confession (pg 333)

With a few more details from Tally's trip, I tried to figure out where Tally's city is located. From the last few chapters, we learn:

(view spoiler)[The hoverboards are going 100 km/hr, and that she travels for over 2 days straight without stopping. Let's say that the 100 km/hr is a gross exaggeration and that it only goes 50 km/hr (roughly 30 mph). Considering she kept up with a helicopter for a while there on her way to Diego, this actually seems like a low ball, but let's run with it. So at 30 mph for 2 days straight (let's leave out the partial third day she know she traveled), that's 1,440 miles. From San Diego up the coast, which I believe she mentioned, and taking into account that her city is built near a large city in our time, that would put her city at... Vancouver. Soooo far past what we both guessed. (hide spoiler)] It doesn't seem to fit with the weather details we got from the first two novels really either in my opinion. It also doesn't take into account that I grossly rounded down the information provided too, which wouldn't make any sense unless she came (view spoiler)[across country on her trip, which doesn't seem to fit with the details either (hide spoiler)] I'm thinking this is another bit of an oversight/miscalculation on the author's part in order to fit the plot he wanted.

[Emily]

I so love that you calculated that! It makes me wonder if (view spoiler)[Diego somehow isn't actually San Diego, if it's actually further south. (After all, Diego isn't necessarily built near where any major current city is today. But then why he would use the name Diego, I don't know because obviously we're going to connect it with San Diego.) Actually, that wouldn't make sense because she would have had to cross over the top of the Baja Peninsula to get to Mexico, and she seems to be traveling down the coast the whole way. And unless the climate in the future has drastically changed in Vancouver, I would say that doesn't fit. (hide spoiler)] My guess is that he either only vaguely based things off real world geography or didn't do the calculations (which, if the case, was lazy).


Up to "Confession" (pg. 333)

I see your point that it wasn't totally unexpected for (view spoiler)[bad things to happen as a result of Tally's irresponsible actions. It's just really tragic that it's Zane who ends up paying the highest price for those actions, especially considering he always seemed more conscientious to me. I do feel bad for Tally to some degree, though. Despite my dislike for her, she didn't deserve everything that's happened. (hide spoiler)]

I watched most of the first season of Breaking Bad, so I saw the very start of Walter's transformation (although where exactly his character ended up, I don't know). His character development was really interesting (although not enough to keep me hooked through hours and hours of episodes). How the power (and the power of discarding ethical and social rules) went to his head does support the argument for the strength of people's egos.

Shay and Tally's relationship hasn't been very healthy, I would agree. Although caring deeply about someone can lead to greater passion, bigger fights, more hurt feelings, and more negative, as well as positive, emotions than those generated by someone you only mildly like.

I found the way that (view spoiler)[Tally's grief was handled to be odd. For one thing, it just hasn't rung overly true to me. I don't know how to explain this well, but for another thing, in context these two quotes came off to me like they were supposed to be GOOD things and, thus, like her grief was a positive thing: "She carried a knife inside herself now, one that was always cutting her. She could feel it every time she swallowed, every time her thoughts strayed from the splendor of the wild." and "But the doubts and uncertainties she had always suffered, the ones Shay had complained about even after Tally had become a Cutter, had finally been burned away. Danger didn’t matter anymore. Nothing did. She was truly special now." And again with the cutting! Pain, physical or emotional, although an inseparable part of life, is not something that should be encouraged. (hide spoiler)]

And Tally's still managing to drive me nuts. This comment was so arrogant and oblivious: “No one knows what it’s like to be me right now, David. I promise you: no one.”

The way (view spoiler)[Tally's city reacts to the war (hide spoiler)] also reminded me of The Hunger Games.

[Sully]

Finished


Shay and Tally definitely have a dysfunctional relationship that hasn't been healthy. I agree that caring deeply can cause all those things, but I think in this case, they never not the upswing up the emotional roller coaster. They hit the lows with their dysfunction, but I don't think I can pin point an instance where I could say "Hey, that was worth it, their friendship. Because look how much they care for each other."

Yeah, I didn't find her (view spoiler)[grieving true to heart either. It seemed more a convenience to the plot more than anything else; a reason to motivate Tally to go off back to the city to try to make up for it. And I was hoping that maybe, somehow, there would be a good message about the cutting at the end, to give it a point to being in the story. But I didn't see it. (hide spoiler)]

What did you think about the way (view spoiler)[Dr. Cable went out? I didn't find it very believable. Yes, she has that insane self worth Shay was talking about. She created these crazy Specials and she was the best of them all. But I don't think someone with the characteristics that Westerfeld gave her over the series would end with her setting Tally free. In anything, I think she would have been in a fit of rage that Tally - almost singlehandled it could seem - tore down all that Cable worked so long and hard to build. And then Tally took away what I would think would be the most important thing to Cable - Cable's own "specialness". I think if anything, Cable would have saved Tally just so she could kill her by her own hands. Although this series has that insane "rewiring" thing with the brain, sooo who knows. (hide spoiler)]

I think the ending with (view spoiler)[Tally and David's reunion was a little forced. Granted, they were given a romantic ending, so to speak, but I feel like part of the reason Westerfeld killed off Zane was so that he could reunite David and Tally, and David could tell her how "special" she is by just being Tally (which I, personally, don't think is a compliment hahaha). (hide spoiler)] What I did like about the ending was it reminded me a bit of the ending to BSG (Battlestar Galactica), where (view spoiler)[the writer points out that history has a knack for repeating itself. As they say on BSG, "All of this has happened before and will happen again". I think it's a bit naive to think that Tally and David will be able to guard against this change all by themselves, and I think humans will find a way to revert to their old ways once more (hide spoiler)].

What do you think of the ending/the book as a whole and the series as a whole (I don't count Extras as part of the series, since even my copy of Specials says right on the cover that it is the final book in the Uglies Trilogy)?

[Emily]

Finished

I found the ending interesting, but not great. There wasn't quite as big of a climax as I would have liked, and (view spoiler)[Tally just having to cure Dr. Cable seemed too easy. There wasn't a big action scene like I was hoping, since I felt that was one thing the author does well. (hide spoiler)] It lacked finality to some degree, with (view spoiler)[the changes to the cities continuing slowly and Tally and David going off to be protectors of the environment. There wasn't quite a happy ending, which yes, I definitely have a preference for. Speaking of David, being Team Zane, I wasn't happy about how quickly Tally and David seemed to pick up where they left off. Zane had just died, for goodness sakes! (hide spoiler)]

I also liked that it addressed the possibility of (view spoiler)[history repeating itself. The concept that “freedom has a way of destroying things" is fascinating to think about. For example, how it relates both to our country, where we have a great deal of freedom, and our world, where the battle between freedom and oppression is fought all the time. I'm not sure I completely agree with Tally's statement, although I definitely get her point with regards to the story. I certainly think freedom needs limits, or else one person's freedom will impinge on other people's freedom and anarchy will ensue. But the freedom of citizens is often what curbs the freedom of governments and prevents them from destroying things. For example, I contrast the U.S., where things of historical value are usually preserved, with ISIS (under whose rule people have every little freedom), who is destroying all these irreplaceable historical sites of temples and tombs and such. So I wonder if Tally won't be surprised sometimes by the responsibility of which non-bubbleheads are capable. If not, I agree that it seems totally unrealistic that Tally and David will be able to stop history repeating by themselves. (hide spoiler)]

As for the books as a whole, they certainly weren't my favorites. They were fun in places and the concept was certainly interesting, but Tally and her many personality shifts kinda ruined it for me. The writing style was very unsubtle and not the best, IMO (although it did improve slightly over the course of the three books). On the one hand, they were good to buddy read because they brought up interesting topics and issues. On the other hand, thinking about them a lot and reading more critically certainly didn't help my opinion of them for the most part. The first was a 2.5 stars rounded up for me, the second like a 2.75 stars because of Zane, and this one got bumped down to 2 stars because of the way the cutting was handled (I never saw a positive message there either).

I'm with you on Shay and Tally- they never clicked for me as friends. There was too much jealousy and neediness and tendency to blame each other there. Although, the fact that they both changed personalities like outfits might have had something to do with me never getting a handle on their friendship.

Yep, it definitely wasn't consistent (view spoiler)[with Dr. Cable's personality for her to rescue Tally like that. A drastic personality change strikes again in this series! Although I will point out that ego was certainly still present in Dr. Cable's desire to preserve "her work". (hide spoiler)]

[Sully]

Emily wrote: "There wasn't quite as big of a climax as I would have liked"

I agree there. With all the build up that was spent for the potential of this city basically (view spoiler)[imploding on itself with suddenly aware Pretties running amok (hide spoiler)], the ending was definitely lackluster.


Emily wrote: "The concept that “freedom has a way of destroying things" is fascinating to think about."

This was a quote that made me think a bit too. Your point about the US vs ISIS is a great point. What I thought of was the rights that same sex partners and transgender people have recently been struggling for in the US. We love to pride ourselves on the freedom our country offers, and yet we still oppress some rights to some groups of our populations that other groups enjoy because of other freedoms we are given (mainly, freedom of religion). I don't think that freedom itself has a way of destroying things. I think it is the entitlement that some people get when they have freedom that makes them think they have rights to infringe upon the freedoms of others (such as monarchies, etc - bad example, I know) that has a way of destroying things. I think I'm kinda trying to say the same thing you did =)

That's true about Dr. Cable. That's the only reason I even remotely bought that part was how she explained it to Tally.

[Emily]

You make a great point about entitlement and freedom. About people who feel superior (linking back to that discussion) thinking their rights are more important than those of others being the problem. I definitley think we're on the same wavelength. :)

What are your thoughts on the series as a whole this time around?

[Sully]

I don't think the series aged well with me. I loved, loved, loved this series when it first same out. I even paid MSRP for these books (which is a huge deal for me). But reading it now, I think a little more critically, logically, and scientifically then I did a decade ago. There are definitely a lot of plot holes in this series, and a lot of things that plan just don't make sense if you stop to think about them. And I was never very fond of Tally the first time around either. And she didn't really grow on me with age.

All that being said, I still like the social commentary in this series. And it's still an interesting read. So while I won't be obsessing over them and raving how awesome they are, I still think it's worth a read through once.