lord of the flies, Buddy Read! :) [[Oct. 2022. ]] Showing 4,901-4,950 of 5,180

[Zarshal]

@Uzair I’ll try and find a hardcopy in my college library (I REALLY HOPE THEY CARRY) when I get back on Monday. Until then I’ll download an e-text. Thanks!

[Uzair]

Oh to have an stocked school/college library for once. That's the dream
Funnily enough my college was new so we didn't even have a library 😔

Btw readings.pk has their own version

They sell it for 300 rs.

They have an entire readings classics list , it has meditations , the trial etc.
You can thank bilal for that info :P

[Zarshal]

@Uzair you should see the library at our college. It has 10 floors xD

Thanks for that info @bilal xD

[Uzair]

10 floors
You see it in films but it'd be something else altogether in person. And I thought my 2 room school library was impressive.
I'd simply faint

[Batool✨]

what the hell! i just got half room Library in my school>.<
godd:!

[Hifza]

my uni has a good library too but there is no match for the amount of books I've seen in Punjab public library. Their Urdu book shelves are immaculate. The books are placed in no order and hence it's difficult to find what you're looking for.

Went in to find the next parts for foundation and came out with Rebecca and aag Ka Darya :D

[Zarshal]

@Uzair so it’s not entirely books books and books. There’s book aisles in one part of a floor and then there’s sofas and tables and places to sit and study and then there’s rows where you can use computers and stuff.
Also, there’s a nap pod xD

[Uzair]

That's alot of words to say heaven on earth?

[Bilal]

i saw the national assembly of pakistan library a few days ago and there was a bunch of Famous MNA's sitting around.

[Zarshal]

@Uzair It might be the only reason I go to college.

[Uzair]

Done with chp 3 ( they're smol )
Consciousness or excess amounts of it is described as something of a scourge.

And as someone that has gone through a recent phase of excruciating overthinking , the resulting analysis paralysis , the inability to act and eventual self loathing.
That rang true.

I swear to you that to think too much is a disease, a real, actual disease. For ordinary human life it would be more than sufficient to possess ordinary human intellectual activity, that is to say, half or a quarter as much as falls to the lot of an educated man in our unhappy nineteenth century

Now the wording seems to say that the more intelligent you are the more you overthink. And I will say I have always thought of myself as quite intelligent. Be it true or unfounded , it is what it is.


Also the complexity of the translation I'm reading ( The readings translation ) thrusts into ones face ( me ) that my grasp on the english language has quite a ways to go. Often I have to read the longer lines over once or twice to understand what it's getting at.
And even then I find myself losing the context it provided by the time I reach the end of the next sentence.

[Uzair]

P.S the excerpt is from the puffin translation which is much simpler

I'm not that much of a pleb

[Zarshal]

@Uzair yeah I get it. It’s actually quite easy to be distracted and lose context while reading these books. It’ll get easier as you move forward, I’ve found that reading enough books over time makes it easier to focus and understand.

Also, I think it’s probably more difficult to understand them is because they’re actually translations. I wonder if the original texts are also this hard to read.

Oh and I haven’t started yet, sorry. Busy schedule 🥺

[Batool✨]

@Uzair yeah, you're quite right as I also own readings copy, there are a lot of sentences that are so intense that I need to read over two or three times to understand what it means, (because I'm quite poor in English:∆ mind not;)

Well I don't understand if the book is so deep or if the transition feels like that, I myself have read two chapters of it and I think narrator is too much introvert not in a dreamer way, but as he's so sad being spited,
Well as you've read three chapters, probably there's a line about (I don't exactly remember it) a normal man being a mouse and being a bull with long horns, don't know why but it was just so funny for me, xD

[Uzair]

Just finished chapter 3 and what man is saying makes sense but God this Fyodor fella loves commas. I was warned ( or rather saw memes ) that old authors like sprawling , wordy sentences but it's different when you actually read it.

I read the second part of chapter 3 twice to be able to understand it but like not used to having 18 different examples and descriptions between the start and end of a sentence.

Also I'm not good at punctuation , which is purely my fault but.
What does the semicolon mean

Onto the content itself. Speaks alot about the struggles ( wow this sounds pretentious ) of smarter people. How perhaps it's better not be well endowed , how it's harder to act say on revenge than it is for "men of action" owing to the doubts and other problems that impede ones ability to act. Whereas the man of action simply sees revenge as justice , his right.

Since I somewhat relate , having Alhumdulilah come out of some of the "morasses" described it encourages me to redouble my efforts not to sink into those "morasses" again.
However it is I think , incredibly pessimistic and blackpilled.

I was going to make a meaningful disagreement at this point but I understand it well enough to do so

[Uzair]

Zarshal wrote: "@Uzair yeah I get it. It’s actually quite easy to be distracted and lose context while reading these books. It’ll get easier as you move forward, I’ve found that reading enough books over time make..."

It's both the translation and the original text .
The translation because the readings translator just wanted to see people suffer
The text because well , like I said , man likes his commas.

[Uzair]

Oh and being busy is perfectly understandable. I guess I'm reading consistently because it's still much better a read than Simple Harmonic motion and Organic chemistry

Try giving it 5-10 minutes everyday.

Doable and when I did it for "The Trial" , granted I didn't finish it but I made progress

[Uzair]

Batool✨ wrote: "@Uzair yeah, you're quite right as I also own readings copy, there are a lot of sentences that are so intense that I need to read over two or three times to understand what it means, (because I'm q..."

Yeah the readings translation is really sadistic lmao.

Don't be concerned by being in english , we were all poor in it at one point and isn't that the reason we're all reading? To maybe learn a thing or two.

And yeah I agree , the narrator does seem introverted , in fact ( maybe I'm just projecting my old self onto him ) he seems like he has anxiety. Worries about everything so that he can't do anything. Despite being capable of he just tried.

Yes I do remember the comparisons to a mouse and a bull haha , they seemed very dark at the time but when you our it that way it isfunny

[Thall]

Niggas getting filtered yeet

[Uzair]

How goes the buddy yeet

[Uzair]

Jogi wrote: "Niggas getting filtered yeet"

Pray tell which nigga?

[Zarshal]

The buddy yeet starts today. I finally got the paperback 🎉

[Uzair]

Great!

I bought the paperback and ended up reading the ebook. I'm quirky that way. Nah jk the ebook was just an easier translation.

The puffin translation I believe

[Zarshal]

@Uzair it’s actually Three short novels. The Double, Notes, and The Eternal Husband. Translated by Constance Garnett and edited by Avrahm Yarmolinsky

[Zarshal]

This man is so confidently confused about everything.

[Zarshal]

Okay so I really don’t agree with the notion that someone who’s sunk into wrongdoing can not change just because he believes there’s nothing left for him to change into.
The very reason that he believes that is the reason he should be told that he’s a wrongdoer who can change into something better.
Does that make sense or am I clearly not getting Dostoevsky?

[Thall]

Quoth the raven, "Filtered lmao"

[Zarshal]

Yk I don’t understand more than half of the things you say. I’m not stupid, I’m just saying.

[Thall]

Zarshal wrote: "Yk I don’t understand more than half of the things you say. I’m not stupid, I’m just saying."

Quote the passage you don't understand in the booka

[Hifza]

@zarshal
I love the honesty xD!

[Zarshal]

Thall wrote: "Zarshal wrote: "Yk I don’t understand more than half of the things you say. I’m not stupid, I’m just saying."

Quote the passage you don't understand in the booka"

"And the worst of it was, and the root of it all, that it was all in accord with the normal fundamental laws of over-acute consciousness, and with the inertia that was the direct result of those laws, and that consequently one was not only unable to change but could do absolutely nothing..."

What exactly is he calling 'the normal fundamental laws of over-acute consciousness'? And why is one not to be blamed for being a scoundrel?

[Zarshal]

Hifza wrote: "@zarshal
I love the honesty xD!"

thanks :P

[Thall]

Zarshal wrote: "Thall wrote: "Zarshal wrote: "Yk I don’t understand more than half of the things you say. I’m not stupid, I’m just saying."

Quote the passage you don't understand in the booka"

"And the worst of ..."

Let's start from the beginning. What the hell is Notes From Underground, or the Underground Man, the eponymous protagonist?

Retrospectively, the Notes represent a summary of Dostoyevsky's later works, one part of it at least. In every novel following the Notes, one of the overarching themes is a struggle between basically a "Naive hero" and a "Rational villain". Myshkin, Razumihin, Alyosha, etc against the likes of Ivan, Svidrigailov etc. Without spoiling too much, the villains always represent the-then nascent nihilism in Russia whereas the heroes were stereotypically Christian, almost in the image of Christ. But the interesting part is that the distinction between good and evil is never really made much clear; you can read his entire ouevre and come out with an understanding that Alyosha was an idiot and you wouldn't be wrong (I mean, he literally wrote a novel called The Idiot about a certain Christ-like hero). And that view is lent more credence by the fact that none of the heroes in their altercations with the villains ever not concede a point: they always agree. There is nothing to disagree with rationally because the villains always have a fucking point -- like, seriously, those are some 160 IQ villains in general.

But a more careful analyses reveals a 'counter-argument': in actions, not words. It's an over-simplification but the perfectly rational actions of the villains eventually lead to a miserable minima whereas the hero, while not necessarily in a heaven, somehow manages to redeem himself and the people around him. And it's a very carefully constructed argument, don't let the conclusion fool you. The plots are intricate and believable enough for you to buy Dostoyevsky's point, and yes he is indeed making a point.

The Notes represented a very early and lopsided version of this argument. There is no hero in The Notes, only a villain. And while he does not exactly have the 'dark academia' vibes of Ivan or the charm of Svidrigailov, he nonetheless represents the same specific illness: a pathological need to be rational. You can even say that the Underground Man is perhaps the only one who is faithful to his pathology; Ivan fails with his satanic delusions and Svidrigailov with his sensual tendencies, but the Underground Man is a true nihilist, through and through.

I won't get into the psychological reasons for how people like him come to be in the first place. That's a long and separate discussion in itself and I don't think there's much point in discussing that with people who never fell low enough in their lives where they reached the "last barrier", as the man puts it. Otherwise it would be quite easy to understand this 'acute-consciousness' he's talking about. But for the sake of discussion, you can euphemize it -- as the man will later reveal himself -- "trying to reduce everything to a syllogism".

If you trace the philosophical roots of nihilism, you'll rest easier knowing that, even though it appears one can argue against the points put forth by the Underground Man, there really is no counter-argument in the specific brand of epistemology (or the lack of it) that he subscribes to. Start with the assumption that "God is dead", and you'll see why. If you want a complete itinerary, might wanna check out Transcendental Idealism -> Berkeley's Idealism -> Skeptical Idealism -> Skepticism -> Solipsism -> Nihilism. It's not a chronological or even a logical list but it sufficed for me. Gives you enough dots to connect and make heads and tails of it.

Coming to the passage you've quoted, before the discovery of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and other Quantum bullshit, there was a widespread belief that free will does not really exist, since the motions of atoms are deterministic and therefore everything else must be so too. That belief was philosophized to hell by philosophers whose names we don't utter anymore, until it was believed that one's psyche, too, is deterministic since consciousness is material (or will eventually be reduced to it anyhow). So the Man, in short, is trying to extend that line of reasoning by saying that if the structure of your mind is so-and-so then try as you might you'll end up where you were supposed to be. You may object that people change, you've seen them yourself, but the Man will simply shrug it off and say, "Yea that's cuz some particular configuration in their brain allowed for that possibility therefore they attained it". Isn't that convenient?

So yea, really not that hard to understand if you put it in the proper historical context and are coming with the right background -- historical, philosophical, psychological or emotional. Ever been depressed and tried to cure it with philosophy?

[Zarshal]

That makes me want to go get depressed and then try to cure it with philosophy. Where the hell did you learn all that?

I’ve been reading stupid books so far.

Thank you so much though. That helps a lot!

[Uzair]

Lads ( and lasses )
The more I read this book the more I don't understand.

Actually that's not true I don't understand but I trudge forward : and still don't understand 😭

[Thall]

Uzair wrote: "Lads ( and lasses )
The more I read this book the more I don't understand.

Actually that's not true I don't understand but I trudge forward : and still don't understand 😭"

Again, what part do you not understand?

[Zarshal]

@Uzair I know. Clearly we don’t have enough background knowledge to read Dostoevsky. But we’ve got to start somewhere. Maybe we continue to read this and do some research and read some discussion topics to gain some info about the thoughts and theories behind Dostoevsky and his writings. Afterwards, maybe we can take @Genio’s advice and read into some history of philosophy and Nihilism and stuff?

[Thall]

Zarshal wrote: "@Uzair I know. Clearly we don’t have enough background knowledge to read Dostoevsky. But we’ve got to start somewhere. Maybe we continue to read this and do some research and read some discussion t..."

It's not strictly necessary. I warned that Part 1 would be hard to get through if you're not coming with the right background, but the Notes is absolutely worth reading for what's coming ahead. My general advice to newcomers is to read Part 2 first and then go back to Part 1.

[Batool✨]

hello everyone! finally I'm not disappeared anymore (lol) and finally i completed part 1 of this book today! so far as i can tell,
"firstly" i understand part 1 like 70 to 80 percent (myself) and i absolutely like it i enjoy the talk of narrator also his philosophical ideas,

some of those passages were hard to understand like this "acute consciousness" and "laws of nature" etx,

but he is quite right in my perspective , he talks about human nature mostly which is right ( it's that Dostoevsky wrote the darkest realms of human nature thats why!) and if you try to understand his philosophy in his way like he was in 18s i guess ! and this period is mostly dark so may understand it better,
btw i like the book the underground man is like an alien living in the world of humans and try to hid from them
(mind not).

[Batool✨]

@thall, "what is the palace of crystals mean in this book (part1)?
i didn't quite understand it if you know than tell me.

[Thall]

Batool✨ wrote: "@thall, "what is the palace of crystals mean in this book (part1)?
i didn't quite understand it if you know than tell me."

It's a euphemism (real) for the half-rational view of a "Utopian Society" that utilitarians and other Enlightenment thinkers were envisioning. A place of perfect harmony, where everything is in accordance with pre-defined rules set to maximize human happiness.

A few decades after the release of the Notes, the "Palace of Crystals" was taken to its extremes by the Communists. The Soviet regime became the very embodiment of a place that incriminates you for sticking your tongue out at it.

[Batool✨]

@thall, i researched a bit on it and your reply help me alot to understand:)
thanks xD

[Zarshal]

So tell me something, what’s the difference between the “laws of conscience” and the “laws of nature”?

[Uzair]

Thall wrote: "Uzair wrote: "Lads ( and lasses )
The more I read this book the more I don't understand.

Actually that's not true I don't understand but I trudge forward : and still don't understand 😭"

Again, wh..."

I think the problem is often I (more or less) understand what the author is talking about but then he'll come to a conclusion or related point that just doesn't make sense to me. I don't know how he arrives at it

Chapter 6 starts with the Author wishing " Oh, if only it was only out of laziness that I do nothing! Lord, how much I should respect myself then! I should respect myself because I had something inside me "


Fair enough

Then he starts to talk about how he should value what's best and highest. Which fair enough but I don't see how that's related to him wishing he had something in him even if it was laziness .

"And I should choose for myself a career: I should be a lazy man and a glutton, but not a simple one, rather one who, for example, was in sympathy with all that is ‘best and highest’."

[Batool✨]

@uzair, you are fairly right, for me i myself sometimes got lost in those paragraphs but as @thall said, there's background history of this book there were conflicts in Russian at that time so it's hard to understand,

i will complete this book, little as i understand it but it's just that i like to read underground man's philosophies lol, but than i will surely re-read it because idk why:D

[Zarshal]

@Uzair, so in my version it says “good and beautiful” instead of “best and highest”.

And I get what you’re trying to say. For me, I actually thought he was just being sarcastic about how people are stupid enough to look for the good and beautiful in utter trash. And how the author wishes he was also stupid enough to be able to see that ‘good and beautiful’ in things for his own sake, i-e to take the word of others and be labelled something in his life.

But his acute conscience doesn’t let him think or be all that.

[Thall]

Uzair wrote: "Thall wrote: "Uzair wrote: "Lads ( and lasses )
The more I read this book the more I don't understand.

Actually that's not true I don't understand but I trudge forward : and still don't understand..."

Know about dysthymia?

Zarshal wrote: "So tell me something, what’s the difference between the “laws of conscience” and the “laws of nature”?"

Laws of nature = nineteenth century physics lol

Laws of consciousness* = materialist conception of consciousness which absolves one of a free will and therefore any blame for wrongdoing.

[Zarshal]

Thanks @Thall

[Zarshal]

Y’all are weirdly silent.

[Uzair]

Sorry 😭
I was already busy but now I'm getting side tracked by shiny new ideas and projects.
Will start being more activee

Where are we on the buddy read? How's everyone faring?