Pakistani Readers discussion
This topic is about
Lord of the Flies
Books
>
lord of the flies, Buddy Read! :) [[Oct. 2022. ]]
haha I've started it properly last night.
Yaay. You won’t understand anything for the first few chapters xD
Haha, thank you for letting me know. ab it's making sense that why it's not making sense xD
now I know whay they mean by kafkaesque lol
I’m not even sure K. is the protagonist. His character just seems so complicated and stubborn, they probably arrested him for something he did wrong not even knowing it was wrong. xDAlso, @Bilal YES! Finally.
A friend of mine wrote a review calling it "Hardcore slow" but I think the very slow pace of this book is supposed to make us feel what the protagonist feels. The same with how complicated and confusing it seems. that's exactly how the K. is feeling . Hopeless and Miserable. Honestly in terms of Writing skills. 10/10. Idk about the plot until it ends however. Altho the ending has already been spoiled for me :(
Yeah I kinda feel how confused and frustrated he feels right now. But I’m still not sure if he was wrongfully convicted. And the law service and the way he’s arrested seems really shady the way it’s put here. I wonder what’s going on. And I get the Hardcore Slow part. It is. 😂
It brings me a coy and rather condescending tear of joy to see people who've so far 'read for facts/what comes next' read something that could not be farther disconnected from any idea of a 'plot'. As a Kafka veteran of sorts, it helps to think of the flow in terms of worsening states of psyche rather than as narrative progression. Nearly all of Kafka's plots, narrative-wise, meander. But that doesn't imply a lack of progression; the progression has simply shifted from the narrative to the psychological domain.
I agree. Perhaps that is why the usual audience finds it so dull and slow. I like what you said at the end. Although the metamorphosis was a short story and so it was hard to call it slow. The progression across the story was psychological. the "what comes next" wasn't spoon fed by the author. Infact the whole plot itself could be summarized in 10 or 15 pages. and it isn't the usual "character development " either. The character does not change. it's thoughts and personality don't. The common theme among his protagonists for me is growing on the hopelessness. first fighting it. even ignoring it and almost always taking it's situation lightly. but as the story progresses they cave in.I have really grown on kafka. Very nice.
Zarshal. I personally think for one to understand Franz kafka's works ,they must understand the man's psycheI will summarize as short as I can
Franz was born to a father who worked hard to go from rags to riches. He was what they'd call a self made man. Perhaps it was this experience in his life . this subjectivity to "reality" which caused him to be so hard on his son. He expected greatness from Franz. but Franz could not deliver. Franz was a weak and shy kid. He would indulge himself with books. and Although today he is considered the mozart of his time. A talent who rises once a century. He suffered from being left to himself as well as from insufficient parental affection and lack of emotional ties with his parents.
In a letter to his father that was never sent, Kafka recalls his father once telling him, "If I have not treated you as fathers usually treat their children, it is just because I cannot pretend as others can."
The struggle to fit into society is at the heart of many of Kafka's works, with isolation being one of the most frequently cited themes in his writing. It's an experience that he understood intimately. From his distant relationship with his father (Kafka himself once stated that he wrote because he couldn't speak to his father in real life) to growing up and working in a society that despised him for being Jewish, Kafka felt alienated from the people around him throughout his life.
Kafka also hated his job, he worked at an insurance agency and according to tedtalks; alot of his work potrays the alienation one feels working a corporate job. working day in and day out with hundreds of other people under a chain of hierarchy.
Now on to his works . Franz only published one books while he was alive and it didn't do that well. he often left his work halfway through. thinking it wasn't good enough and he destroyed about 90% of his work by burning it .
Finally the most upsetting part about his life to me.The event that speaks volumes whenever you read his work was on his deathbed.
He instructed his friend Max Brod to burn whatever of his work that was left. He wanted his literature to die with him. Thinking it wasn't good enough till death. Fortunately for us. Brod betrayed him and did not fulfill his final wish. While reading The Trial I personally do not focus on the events . Most of it has no meaning in terms of narrative. Such as how long it takes him to reach the courtroom and the way the court is arranged itself. It all has an underlying message and a psychological statement
this is just my 2 cups on it. Cheers!
I've trudged my way through chapter 1 , how's everyone else faring?:P
Zarshal wrote: "Yaay. You won’t understand anything for the first few chapters xD"
Hahaha yes I had to read the start twice to get a picture of the scene , not to mention the writing very much has that old-timey early 1900s feel to it
Bilal wrote: "now I know whay they mean by kafkaesque lol"I once had someone refer to one of my short stories that way 😌
I'll take it as a compliment lol
Bilal wrote: "A friend of mine wrote a review calling it "Hardcore slow" but I think the very slow pace of this book is supposed to make us feel what the protagonist feels. The same with how complicated and conf..."I mean unless this is meant to be symbolic , philosophic or commenting on society or something I don't agree that it's very good writing.
It does make me personally feel confused , but not quite in the same way as Joseph K. He's struggling to figure out why his situation has changed , I'm struggling to figure out what the situation is at all .
Wouldn't it be far better writing , not to mention grabbing of ones attention to make us feel for Mr.K instead of exactly what he's feeling?
Jogi wrote: "It brings me a coy and rather condescending tear of joy to see people who've so far 'read for facts/what comes next' read something that could not be farther disconnected from any idea of a 'plot'...."I'll have to read further , perhaps even finish to form a solid opinion but currently it just seems pompous
Bilal wrote: "Zarshal. I personally think for one to understand Franz kafka's works ,they must understand the man's psycheI will summarize as short as I can
Franz was born to a father who worked hard to go fro..."
Why, I thank you from the deepest crevices of my lazy heart! I understand what I'm reading right now much better. I was avoiding having to read Kafka's biography because I don't like reading biographies in that it changes my whole perception about the book and instead of taking it as I as myself would, I start reading into it as the author intends me to, which for some weird reason I don't like. What's the point of reading a book if it doesn't make you know yourself a bit better, right? But it seemed inevitable because, well, it's Kafka and I've heard so much about him but, sadly, I couldn't exactly get the whole point of this book.
Anyhoo, I appreciate this book better now.. :')
Uzair wrote: "Zarshal wrote: "Yaay. You won’t understand anything for the first few chapters xD"
Hahaha yes I had to read the start twice to get a picture of the scene , not to mention the writing very much ha..."
Oh this book is definitely out of the norm for you. But I hope it'll be a good experience, you never know where you find new things to love.
Uzair wrote: "Bilal wrote: "A friend of mine wrote a review calling it "Hardcore slow" but I think the very slow pace of this book is supposed to make us feel what the protagonist feels. The same with how compli..."So, usually what we do with 'ordinary' books, pardon my use of the word, is that they hand us the feelings and emotions on a plate and we just grab them and chomp chomp chomp. With books like these, I would suggest you keep an open mind, or rather an open heart, in that they won't tell you what you need to feel, instead you'll have to figure that out on your own. It's going to be your own take on how you want to perceive the perception of the character that the author has provided to you in the form of this text. And it'll be either that you don't get this book at all, or that you'll know your character way better than you ever thought you could.
So yeah, focus more on the emotions and feels and the subtext, than the actual, 'physical' aspect of the scenes, and that's also where @Bilal's comment in which he's briefly narrated the author's life story will help you.
I hope that helps!
Bilal wrote: "Zarshal. I personally think for one to understand Franz kafka's works ,they must understand the man's psycheI will summarize as short as I can
Franz was born to a father who worked hard to go fro..."
That's really very informative , thanks!
Zarshal wrote: "Uzair wrote: "Bilal wrote: "A friend of mine wrote a review calling it "Hardcore slow" but I think the very slow pace of this book is supposed to make us feel what the protagonist feels. The same w..."chomp chomp chomp is a funny yet succinct description hahaha
As for being handed emotions on a plate. That does make sense to me , I think it's a large part of why I enjoy novels. Also I've noticed I have a tendency to accept any biases the author may have without thinking about it. So that was very helpful , thanks.
I'll try to keep an open mind as I read.
@Uzair, anytime! :’)
Uzair wrote: "Jogi wrote: "It brings me a coy and rather condescending tear of joy to see people who've so far 'read for facts/what comes next' read something that could not be farther disconnected from any idea..."Pompous is not a criticism.
In my experience, it's usually just an admission that you're failing to comprehend.
Contrary to what your 'recoil' to my jab may imply, it does not mean you are dull-brained or something. It's not some 200 IQ literature only accessible to the select few. It's a classic for a reason -- people across ages, of different professions, education and social classes, have read and resonated with it.
True classics, the ones that created a genre or revolutionized one, almost always require a certain mental state. If you didn't have an emotionally neglected upbringing, it would be hard for you to simulate the mental state that Kafka requires. But that's not an impossible barrier -- isn't learning different states of mind why we read literature in the first place? Or was literature just a more 'pompous' substitute to 'movies' for us so we can brag about it on the dinner table? If you're not reading to expand your mind, why the fuck do you have a book in your hand?
Slow down. There's significance in every 'confusion' in the text. It's deliberately planted there. It serves a purpose. Read a few pages, understand nothing, move back, read again, and again, you'll understand something. And even if you don't, persist long enough, finish it, pick up another. Do it again and again and at some point you'll be familiar with enough mental states to be a true advocate for the 'human condition'.
If you can't do that, no amount of reading has ever helped you. And you are certainly not the educated person your book stack might seem to imply about you. It's the process every truly learned man goes through. It's your turn now.
Read to learn. Not for comfort. Not to impress. Not for enjoyment. Read because it offers something no other media does or at least fails to do quite so effectively. Read deeply and widely and don't brush anything marginally off your chart so easily. I read The Savage Detectives. A 1000-page behemoth that allegedly revolutionized Latin American literature only to end up hating it. But years later, looking back on it, I realize its genius, bit by bit. To the point where I might pick it up again. At the time I thought it was pompous, too full of fluff, too meandering, that I don't care about the immature characters or the orgies or whatever. But life happens and it happens like it does in books that bewilder you the most. Not the ones that make perfect sense from the first page and throw a surprise or two here and there so you can sell them to your friends.
Things worth advertising are rarely easily advertised.
@uzair you hit the nail in the coffin there but you still prefer to be ignorant of it. The book is symbolic ,philosophic and indeed it is commenting on society. Good writing to me isn't presenting events in ways where the reader wants more. your usual harry potter or percy jackson. It is entertaining for sure. but it conveys only what the author wants it to convey. You can interpret kafka however you may want. and from what I hear at least. don't expect greatness in terms of plot in The Trial. I think Kafka isn't trying to sell a story rather a state of mind. and the story itself is pretty interesting as well. it goes hand in hand. My preference in books changed recently exactly because what Genio said. Also I love what genio said about classics. facts. Just read shakespeare. Socrates. Homer or chaucer. It is confusing. But it isn't supposed to be read ,it is supposed to be studied. To be understood. and it might take you and me a while. but you read and read and then maybe after ao while you finally understand. If one wants only to increase his knowledge. they can stick with "1000 facts about science" or your usual generic "who is who and what is what" .
Chapter 5 . The whip-man. so powerful. the fine line of morals between K and his ideals. the build up from the start of the book to the scene . Beautiful. Magnifique. In tears. Bravo Franz. Bravo.
@Bilal I read The Flogging yesterday and I don’t know the number of the chapter. Didn’t get the time to continue reading today and I won’t from the looks of it :(I think it’s the same chapter you’re talking about, just that I’m reading a different translation. And I get what you’re saying, because it’s my favourite chapter so far.
I see. I plan on finishing it tonight or tomorrow. would have liked reading it slower but uni is starting soon and I must clear out my shelf so have to pick up the pace a little.
I see. I plan on finishing it tonight or tomorrow. would have liked reading it slower but uni is starting soon and I must clear out my shelf so have to pick up the pace a little.
While we're on this theme, I suggest "Invitation To A Beheading" by Nabokov for next month's read. I've been meaning to re-read that and it's shorter, and perhaps more legible, than The Trial. The themes are similar but only on the surface.
Hmm excited to see your thoughts on "Invitation To A Beheading" and "The Castle" which, in my opinion, is Kafka's magnum opus.
I did see a few reviews about The castle. definitely planning on reading more kafka since both of his books have been terrific. unfortunately I have to clear out my shelf before buying more. since all I've done for the last 2 years is buy and not read any books. I have no one but Kafka to thanks for bringing me back into this world with metamorphosis.
Bilal wrote: "I did see a few reviews about The castle. definitely planning on reading more kafka since both of his books have been terrific. unfortunately I have to clear out my shelf before buying more. since ..."It was interestingly the same for me back in 2016. Had a protracted period of general malaise regarding reading until I stumbled upon The Castle. And from the moment that frozen imagery of the protagonist undertaking a seemingly possible but infinite journey towards the castle struck me, something changed. For societal reasons, I cannot tell exactly what. But that book is responsible for the biggest change I've ever underwent.
Jogi wrote: "Uzair wrote: "Jogi wrote: "It brings me a coy and rather condescending tear of joy to see people who've so far 'read for facts/what comes next' read something that could not be farther disconnected..."So I really procrastinated while writing this but anyhow we’re here now :
Woweee that was one rollercoaster of a reply wasn’t it. I really must compliment your writing.
Fiery but not venomous. Impassioned. You’re a better spokesman for handing emotions to the reader than I am. The paragraphing in particular had a deft touch to it.
With the fawning at an end , I admit , I am an amateur to Kafka and classics as well. I tried not to let my responses be clouded but you’re right I recoiled. That being said Bilal's , Zarshall’s and your own explanation have been more than enough to convince me that classics aren’t pretentious but something deeper. What exactly that is I don’t know yet but I’m willing to give it a go.
The requirement of a certain mental state is a concept I learnt fairly recently. It makes sense too. You can’t begin to comment on something that you haven’t had experience with. You can try but the difference between you and someone who does have that experience will be clear.
Likewise you mentioned that learning different states of mind was why we read. You perhaps. I’ve never particularly wanted to learn about the psyche. For that matter I haven’t had much reason to read as of recent. I have learnt from other sources though. Call it crude if you will but Youtube has been helpful , alongside irl conversations , therapy and the one that surprised me the most : journaling. But perhaps that’s me growing tired of the entertainment books provided me with and I do need to shift to a more learning based aspect. Oh and also nostalgia. I’m a sucker for nostalgia. A nostalgia-boo if you will. Cancer joke I’m aware :P.
You asked
"Or was literature just a more ‘pompous’ substitute to ‘movies’ for us so we can brag about it the dinner table? If you’re not reading to expand your mind, why the fuck do you have a book in your hand? "
and it’s a good question but as life shows you there’s many different states of mind. And with them many different intentions.
Besides you answered it yourself when you said " Read because it offers something no other media does or at least fails to do quite so effectively."
That applies to learning yes. But it also applies to escapism. To passion. To specific tastes.
Reading is as much a unique escape as it is a tool to learn.
You said there was a significance in every confusion. I’ve heard that repeated and I have stopped looking too intently at the plot. But that begs the question. What is the confusion for? What am I looking for.
Do it again and again and at some point you'll be familiar with enough mental states to be a true advocate for the 'human condition' . That’s fair enough I suppose. But what does that even mean? To advocate for the human condition. To understand the psyche? How people think?
The process that every truly learned man goes through. Again your words do ring true here. But just what is it that we’re learning? You can’t expect a man to just read ‘classics’ blindly , hoping to gain some wisdom , some deep understanding if he doesn’t even know what it is he’s looking for. Now that is what seems actually pompous.
Why am I reading the Trial then? At first it was the buddy read. Then the discussions became interesting. Now I actually see some worth in it.
how do you guys feel about poetry? Maybe chaucer? or go insane and read the Iliad or the odyssey?
Poetry kabhi angrezi ki class men bardasht ni hui mereseh. Khud tou men kabhi nah uthaun 😂😂
Uzair wrote: "Jogi wrote: "Uzair wrote: "Jogi wrote: "It brings me a coy and rather condescending tear of joy to see people who've so far 'read for facts/what comes next' read something that could not be farther..."Why do you live? Do you live everyday with a clear point? Do you expect, for example, that tomorrow you will learn how to do your taxes or get your driving license or meet up with friends? Let's say you actually live that methodically, but what happens when your to-do (or the 'points') list is exhausted? Do you stop living? Does the day stop having a meaning? Let's assume it really does stop having a meaning and you try to come up with more to-dos, more 'points' so to say, and then you end the day. How long can you keep that life up before you've exhausted nearly all the 'points' that can be summed in a few words, or sentences? How long until you've hit that wall where the 'point' is something to be discovered or rather evaded because life never offered any point organically to begin with; it was only the constraints you imposed upon it yourself that lent some structure to the living, and while that structure kept your sanity intact and kept you in good shape and mental health (very important), there's still something lingering in the back of your mind that this structure is arbitrarily imposed; that it will live and die with you; that some routines may be echoed millennia ahead, like we appeal to our ancestors with new fads like paleo diet. But the 'essence of life' that allows one to come up with viable structures will be lost to you if you only live for the point.
Being a business owner and reading Entrepreneurial books came as quite a shock to me; I mean, these books are the antithesis of the philosophy I just related. They have a definite point; they prescribe definite methods; they have a definite purpose. Once you read them, you can point back and say "I learned this and this". But at the same time, there's a mysterious tendency for these Entrepreneurial writers to allude to the classics -- Peter Thiel for example quotes Shakespeare, Mark Twain, and several others; Benjamin Graham gets even more obscure with his references. Paul Graham is in the same boat; somehow all of these worldly, practical dudes, who actually made a difference and didn't just follow other people's "points" are aware of our classical history in the form of literature. It's kind of a nebulous hypothesis at this point but I'm quite sure that unless you learn, truly learn, that all structures are arbitrary yet still valuable, that life on its own is one miasma of confusion, bewilderment, and the unknown, it's hard for you to really come up with a new and viable structure on your own too.
But of course, not all scholars end up revolutionizing the world. And there indeed is a point of diminishing returns where your escape into the unknown becomes merely an escape; where you've learned that elusive lesson but you're still carrying on because it's comfortable to you now. I've been there. But it's better than never being there.
To make it short: think of all literature as an experience . If an experience is too linear, too obvious, it just becomes boring, doesn't it? But it's the days that don't seemingly have a point, that are not following a structure, or the days where everything gets out of hand and it's hard to keep track that are really conducive to lasting change in your life. The point is not immediately obvious, and it's better that way. When it's known in advance, you learn nothing new.
Warren Buffet once called literature "visceral experience". Since then I've thought of literature as a way to fill in more life than what my years have accounted for so far. Of course real experience still triumphs, but it's not always as affordable as visceral experience.
Bilal wrote: "how do you guys feel about poetry? Maybe chaucer? or go insane and read the Iliad or the odyssey?"Why not. I'm reading kafka as far as I'm concerned the illiad is a stones throw away
Zarshal wrote: "Poetry kabhi angrezi ki class men bardasht ni hui mereseh. Khud tou men kabhi nah uthaun 😂😂"Same but urdu poetry is bae :P
@Uzair yeah I do know a little bit of Iqbal and Rumi. But english isn’t just deep enough for me. It kinda never hit the mark.
assalamualaikum guys?i am a new member of this group, and particularly I don't know what you are talking about and of course chats are kinda too much so will anybody let me know what's going on in group?
Walaikumassalam. Hello Gullay! First off, a very warm welcome to you from this side. I know threads are a handful, what you can do is look for a ‘Hey guys’ thread which should be under introduction? i think. And introduce yourself. Just a general who are you and whatever else you want to share.And then go on from there to whichever conversation interests you and leave your thoughts.
Here in this thread we’re talking about a monthly book read that we do ‘almost’ every month and then discuss the book and then go wherever that discussion takes us.
Currently we were reading The Trial by Franz Kafka, which we’re concluding right about now. And we’re discussing what to read next. You’re more than welcome to join!
Thankyou for your humble feedback zarshal saeed.I am gullay from larkana sindh and i'm in early college also on a side i study literatures.
with that, i must say that i really appreciate to discuss books i have readed and upcoming reads.
Talking about books i am a bit excited that what you guys will read in upcoming month so if possible that i will perhaps change my TBR a bit.so which book's gonna be in july tbr?
we haven't decided yet. These guys read at the pace of a sloth.
@Bilal Once I used to read like you. Life happened 😭I felt like a grandma saying that. But, oh well.
Pakistani Readers
Books mentioned in this topic
Small Things Like These (other topics)After the Dark (other topics)
Hostile Pursuit (other topics)
Armed 'N' Ready (other topics)
Closer Than You Think (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Rene Denfeld (other topics)Rene Denfeld (other topics)
Francesca Zappia (other topics)
Nicola Yoon (other topics)
Neil Gaiman (other topics)
I’m so confused ._.