lord of the flies, Buddy Read! :) [[Oct. 2022. ]] Showing 4,951-5,000 of 5,180

[Hifza]

guys please pick some light read for next month. I can't with this philosophy streak going on here :')

[Zarshal]

I finished part one the other day. And I know I’m really slow but I’m trying so hard with my schedule and exams and stuff so. 🥺

I really liked part 1 and the different perspectives it provides and the theories/arguments it presents especially the one about choices and free will.
Though I feel like I’m not actually understanding this the way it was meant to be understood yk what I mean?
Wbu guys?

[Zarshal]

Hahaha @Hifza girl! I hear ya.

[Hifza]

@zarshal :D !

[Thall]

Women proving they can't with the realities of life

[Batool✨]

@hifza, hahaha lol! well i was prepared for something dark and philosophical,

[Batool✨]

@thall, yeah quite sure, women already know realities of life..

[Thall]

Batool✨ wrote: "@thall, yeah quite sure, women already know realities of life.."

Which is a shorthand to say women are more neurotic. In other words, experience more suffering per unit of pain than men. Which is a fact (look up Big5 statistics).

But, at the same time, I do wonder as a man how well off would women be if they -- instead of dissipating their youth in Romance and YA; pure escapism, almost equivalent to 'porn' for young men as far as neural activity is concerned -- invest their time in understanding these realities before they come across them.

I wager they'd do a lot better. Like, hell of a lot. Almost infinitely better. Yeah.

[Uzair]

Zarshal wrote: "Though I feel like I’m not actually understanding this the way it was meant to be understood yk what I mean?
Wbu guys?"

Same.
Just same 😭.

I shall now attempt to comment on a text of which i totally don't only have a hazy grasp on

The point, gentlemen, is this: doesn’t there, in fact, exist something that is dearer to almost every man than his own very best interests, or – not to violate logic – some best good (the one that is always omitted from the lists, of which we were speaking just now) which is more important and higher than any other good

Volition

Again I find myself not fully understanding but nonetheless agreeing with the underground man.
There's a certain thrill to freedom. But still , off the top of my head I can't recall instances where it's compelled me to go against what was good for me.
Also wouldn't the underground man himself , as someone who overthinks and is not a man of action not have this problem?
An overthinker looks for every possible outcome so that they can have the "best good" not so that they may choose to do whatever

Civilization develops in man only a many-sided sensitivity to sensations, and… definitely nothing more.

Very true. Often it'll make us more mindful , able to understand , but as in all things , sensitivity is best in moderation. Too little and one becomes apathetic. Too much and well.
SJWs.
Did Dostoevsky predict SJWs? What a madlad.

[Uzair]

Thall wrote: "Women proving they can't with the realities of life"

POV Least misogynistic redpiller

[Uzair]

Thall wrote: "Batool✨ wrote: "@thall, yeah quite sure, women already know realities of life.."

Which is a shorthand to say women are more neurotic. In other words, experience more suffering per unit of pain tha..."

Well I'd wager that's not really a women problem but a copium problem. The modern world gives us too many easy ways outs at every turn , at every hint of discomfort. When it is these very hard times that build us up.

I myself was a major coomer for 6 years. But Alhumdulilah that's behind me now.

The primary principle I've learnt is to try. If it's good for me or I want it then try. Yes there will be failure but that's a good thing. The only ones that don't fail are those that never try. And after failure comes success
Or as I've phrased it in my Journal.
Try your best and Allah does the rest.

May seem wishful to some but it keeps me going.

[Thall]

Uzair wrote: "Thall wrote: "Batool✨ wrote: "@thall, yeah quite sure, women already know realities of life.."

Which is a shorthand to say women are more neurotic. In other words, experience more suffering per un..."

I disagree. It is a woman problem. The only reason it's becoming prevalent among men nowadays is because they're becoming feminine too (when was the last time you saw anything in pop culture that facilitated masculinity?).

"Women have already faced the realities of life"

Or so the narrative goes. Like what, exactly? Have you ever been homeless? jobless? have you ever truly suffered grief while juggling a dozen responsibilities? have you ever spent a night on the streets? have you ever had a life rely on you? have you ever faced a life-or-death situation?

I don't mean to downplay the sufferings of women, but let's put it into context: you think these 20-something old or maybe even teenager girls have ever experienced the 'realities of life' that they are using as a defense to justify their escapism?

Now all the women of goodreads are gonna be on my back, "mansplaining!". Is it?

I've been reading books since I was 7 years old. Didn't necessarily have the best life and in order to contend with it I had to foray into literature that would help me make heads or tails of these "realities of life", instead of running away from them. What kind of a 'victim' doesn't seek to master his implements of oppression? What kind of a victim when presented with an option to understand his suffering would reject it by saying "I have seen too much of it already"? Surely, you either must have mastered it already ... or had never suffered at all.

Which one do you think is more likely for these women who don't want to read anything serious because they've already seen the 'realities of life'?

I don't mean to discredit the women who took a goddamn hint early on and stopped using literature as a feminine proxy for porn. They are wonderful women and I wish them all the best.

But these low lives who are so absorbed in their own pain that they can never seen anyone else's ... I have no pity.

[Zarshal]

I wasn’t going to get into this discussion but here goes. First off, you can’t judge someone and their grief based off the books they decide they want to or don’t want to read. Simple as that. You don’t know them, you don’t know the things they’ve been through, and you can’t decide what grief is justifiable in order for escapism to be deemed suitable to cope with it.

Except, perhaps, for yourself.

You decided you didn’t want to escape the grief, you wanted to know how to fight it and how to deal with it. You wanted to understand it, and that’s really great for you. But not everyone has the luxury of being able to deal with the griefs and heartbreaks of their lives. You talk about women not having to deal with grief while under the responsibilities of other lives.

What do you think women do exactly? Do you think working 9-5, 5 days of the week, earning bread is the only responsibility that matters because that’s what men do? I can list out countless women I know who’ve been through every single ‘example’ of pain you just listed out. And more. And they did it with a smile on their face for the world to see. Do you really think their pain wasn’t valid enough because they didn’t want to read the philosophy of how that pain works in real world? Or because they sometimes watched or read fun stories because they were tired of coping with their grief all the time?

You say you don’t want to undermine their pain but go on to doing exactly that. Pain isn’t a quantitative thing that you can measure and compare. You can never say that your grief is bigger than someone else’s just because you think it is. I mean, I can totally say I have more grief in my life than you and I could be totally right but how would I know that? More importantly, how do you know that your grief is more important than someone else’s? Be it a man or a woman, you can’t undermine someone else’s emotions like that. It’s simply wrong.

At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter if I’m a woman and you’re a man, I can choose the books I want to read based solely on my mood and the fact that I just don’t want to read Dostoevsky two months in a row. Everyone has their own coping mechanism. Maybe someone doesn’t want to watch sad movies because they can’t stand the fact that they lost their family to an accident. Maybe they like to watch happy family movies because it makes them hopeful. Is that so hard to accept?

In short, learn to respect other people’s pain. If not because you can feel their pain, do it because you know yours.

[Batool✨]

well i am not gonna join in this discussion which i guess i had started or my sentence, by the way the realities of life or whatever they are I've seen them what they are and I've learnt from them it's not important that a teenager doesn't understand realities of life, and for books, only reading philosophies doesn't give you a damn experienced life,
@thall, you said you started reading from grade 7 well i did when i was in 8th grade.

[Ramla Zareen]

I agree with @Zarshal. It's wrong to judge or measure people's pain. Everyone goes through their own struggles in life, and it's not our place to decide whether someone's suffering is big or important enough.

Also, everyone has their own way of dealing with problems. They know what works best for them, and it's not our place to judge them on their coping strategy.

It's also unfair to measure people's ability to cope with the realities of life by their reading choice.

Yes, what we read does influence us. That's why I think if possible, it's good to have a comprehensive and balanced reading palette—a portion of most things (cute, emotional, logical, adventurous, philosophical etc) but not too much of one thing—especially when we're growing up as that's when we're most impressionable. Then later on we can start limiting ourselves to certain types of books if we want.

I myself read a variety of genres while growing up, and I learned from every book, regardless of the genre. Nowadays, I'm into Romantic Suspense—a combination of Romance, Thriller, and Mystery. I enjoy it and I think the twenty to sixty minutes escapism each day does me good. Helps me tackle life's routine—and some not so routine—issues with a refreshed and positive mind.

I know people who read intellectual and philosophical books, and it helps them deal with life in a better way, which is great.

However, I also know people who haven't picked up a book in their lives—apart from compulsory textbooks—yet they've dealt with tough times with courage and intelligence.

I know people who read only frivolous genres while growing up. Yet they managed to overcome serious adversities in their adulthood. They still read those frivolous genres—not because they think they've already faced the realities of life but because they enjoy those genres. Is that so wrong?

I think what's wrong is when people are judged on what they read. It's good to guide young relatives or friends towards what you think are appropriate books for them. But ultimately, everyone has their own reasons for reading, and they have a right to choose what they want to read. Reading a certain genre doesn't make anyone weaker or inferior.

@Uzair

Agreed. We should try our best, ask Allah to help us, and leave the rest to Him. It pleases Allah when we believe in Him and ask Him for His help, and pleasing Allah is a success in itself. He will then give us what's best for us. (Ameen).

[Batool✨]

@ramla @zarshall, i agree with both of you.
we all are having different point of views so it's better not to judge anybody.

[Asad]

i only read the last 2 or 3 comments, and I have no idea of the context of the thread, but I just wanted to chime in with a 'Hear Hear' for the normalization of the idea that 'reading' books, is not a trait that elevates a person above non-readers. Thinking it does is just being arrogant and kind of silly,. and that is exactly why I had to leave a group on facebook that was about 'Pakistani Book Readers' and the amount of vomit inducing self importance by semi comprehensible written english made me just.... nope out of that masturbatory circle jerk

[Zarshal]

Thank you for all the comments here. I respect each and every one of your opinions. But, I think this discussion is going way off topic for this thread. If anyone does want to continue it, can they please create a new thread or use one of the existing threads for this sort of debate? With all due respect I, for one, really want to steer clear of this topic.

Let’s get back to Notes, shall we?

[Asad]

sry, my bad!

[Zarshal]

@Asad, you don’t have to apologise, my comment wasn’t directed towards you, or anyone really. I just thought the situation was escalating. Just neutralising, really. :P

[Ramla Zareen]

@Asad

Wow, I was concerned about why people were being pressured to justify their reading choices. Books open our minds, so how come readers were being judgemental towards other readers for their genre preference?

However, hearing about readers being judgemental towards non-readers somehow worries me even more.

Okay @Zarshal, I'll respect your wishes and refrain from discussing this further :-)

[Zarshal]

@Ramla, yeah you’re right. It’s alarming. And thank you! (:

[Batool✨]

alright coming towards notes i think i will complete the book in a week, well @zarshall you completed part 1 what's your opinion about underground man's philosophies. ( I think we better discuss part 1 as it was so deep)

[Zarshal]

@Batool, indeed it is. Overall I really like part 1. There are a few things here and there that I don’t understand yet, but I’m pretty sure over time I’ll get used to Dostoevsky. Even now I go back and forth, and that’s what’s taking me so long to read this rather short book, and every time I re-read something, I understand a little more of what I couldn’t grasp the previous time.

I especially like his thoughts about independent choice and how that is what a man actually wants, and not just something that is rationally advantageous.

Here’s what interested me the most of all things I understand of this book so far.

I’ve learned over time that humans love to quantify things. It makes it easier to understand pretty much everything. But the Underground Man’s arguments got me thinking: Can we really quantify, and ultimately calculate and then predict, emotions and choices? If we do, in fact, decide to work on this theory, and hypothetically, if we do develop a formula, how can we know all the inputs and variables? How do we know how much of an input affects how much of the output? It’s way too complicated!

I don’t know much about the work that went into all of this in the past. But I’m sure I’ll research and read more into this topic because it’s really interesting. Even though I’m quite skeptical about it’s workings.

[Zarshal]

Weirdly, it all makes me wonder, what exactly is Fate? How much is already decided for us? How much of our life is in our own hands?

[Thall]

Well, well, don't go around ditching a discussion that yours truly started. I started it, so I'll finish it.

But not now. Very busy this weekend... you know, with real life responsibilities...more than just 9-5 I assure you (ironic how an argument about not comparing pains eventually ended up undermining a certain kind of pain ... but really, how bad do you have to be at reading before you conclude my previous comment was about comparing rather than understanding other's sufferings -- pretty bad I suppose, as evidenced by the remarkable failure of this group's member to understand not just The Notes but pretty much every non-chick lit we've ever chosen).

Anyways, if reading books hasn't made you better... you probably need to read better books. But of course you'd never do that, because you believe all books are equal, just as you believe all ... people are equal... just as you believe all aspirations are equal... just as you believe all actions are equal...just as you believe doing and not doing are equal... thinking and not thinking are equal... reading a newspaper or not reading are equal...ok this is getting ridiculous.

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have accomplished half the things I have at my age without any family backing -- or whatever other excuse you can come up later on to mitigate a success you wouldn't want to accept because you don't want to believe what I'm driving at -- reading the books I do.

My dear Asad, before you undermine books, let me remind you: you read some really shitty ones.

[Ramla Zareen]

Zarshal wrote: "Weirdly, it all makes me wonder, what exactly is Fate? How much is already decided for us? How much of our life is in our own hands?"

@Zarshal

This video helped me when I was trying to figure out the same thing. It's only ten minutes long. You can watch it if you like. Maybe it will help you too :-)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1qmjVBy...

Taqdeer Main Sub Likha Hai To Amal Ka Kya Faida

[Zarshal]

@Ramla, thankyou! I’ll check it out.

[Zarshal]

@Thall, I’ll go back to respectfully ignoring your comments from now on. Thanks for helping me understanding whatever I couldn’t understand in the Notes.
But I’ll leave you with this: If acquiring all this knowledge over the years has made you into this person who thinks he’s above others, you’ve really defeated the purpose of reading.

[Uzair]

@Zarshall
I know the question isn't necessarily an Islamic one but nonetheless try out Muhammad Hijabs videos on ytube.
An absolute intellectual powerhouse

The way I understand it is , We have the ability to make our own choices. But those choices are already known to God.

[Batool✨]

@zarshal, yeah this fate thing is really what I don't understand, some says it's already written, others assume it's up to you and so on, but i clearly don't get what fat really is:(

[Asad]

@Thall https://media.giphy.com/media/TL6poLz...

[Ramla Zareen]

@Uzair

You summed it up nicely. We can make our own choices. But Allah already knows our choices, so He has written it all down.

If we choose to do good and succeed in doing it, it means doing good was written in our fate.

If we choose to do bad and succeed in doing it, it means doing bad was written in our fate.

Now a question can arise: what if we choose to do good but don't succeed in doing it. Does that mean doing good wasn't written in our fate?

Well, the thing here to remember is: if we choose to do good, and try our best to do it, then Allah has promised to help us.

[Ramla Zareen]

@Thall

I don't think anyone here meant to undermine books. I certainly didn't. I just said it was unfair to judge people based on what they read. Books can help us improve ourselves. But just because someone reads a lighter genre or doesn't read books at all doesn't mean he's inferior.

For example:

Five people feel sad. "A" turns to philosophical books to help him understand and resolve his mood. "B" reads a Romantic Comedy to lighten his mood. "C" decides to pray. "D" spends time with family or friends and shares his feelings with them. "E" seeks professional help.

Philosophical books help "A" overcome his sadness.

But just because the other four people didn't read philosophical books doesn't mean they couldn't overcome their sadness.

Another example:

"A" knows a lot about Paris because he reads a lot of Travelogues.

"B" doesn't read Travelogues. He reads Mystery books. But he knows as much about Paris as "A" because he regularly travels there.

So reading Travelogues helped "A" learn about Paris.

But just because "B" didn't read Travelogues doesn't necessarily mean he is less knowledgeable about Paris. He just learned from a different source. Or maybe he has some other knowledge or skill that makes him as able a person as "A".

Last example:

A person reads a philosophical book and a Romantic Comedy.

The philosophical book makes him think.

He learns the importance of opening his mind to new thoughts and possibilities through a character's journey in a Romantic Comedy.

So just because he read a lighter genre doesn't mean he didn't get to learn anything.

Anyway, this is just my opinion. You don't have to agree.

Sorry @Zarshal. I know I said I would refrain from commenting further on this topic, but I needed to say this.

[Zarshal]

@Uzair, thanks for the suggestion. I’ll watch his videos.

@Batool, why don’t you watch the videos @Ramla and @Uzair kindly suggested? Maybe they help you understand Fate. I myself know Fate, I’ve read about it but it was just this one question of free will that really got me confused. Simply put, Fate is just what God has written for us. The paths our life leads on, the things we get in this life, the ones we don’t get, the time of our birth, death, how long our journey in this world will be, etc.

@Ramla, no worries. You’re always welcome to share your thoughts! (: I look forward to your comments more than anyone else’s here because they’re so well thought out and comprehensive.

[Ramla Zareen]

Thanks @Zarshal :-)

[Ramla Zareen]

Just a quick addition:

Thall wrote: "but really, how bad do you have to be at reading before you conclude my previous comment was about comparing rather than understanding other's sufferings"

Well, in the example I gave in my previous comment, if I say:

Since "A" turned to philosophical books instead of seeking professional help like "E" did, it shows his suffering wasn't as big as "E's".

Then that would be me judging, comparing, and measuring their sadness based on how they chose to cope with it.

It wouldn't be me trying to understand their suffering.

Or if I ask:

Has "E" ever been homeless? Jobless? Has he ever experienced this? Has he ever suffered that? No? Then how come he's so sad that he felt the need to seek professional help?

Then that would be me judging and undermining his suffering.

Because: how can I be sure he didn't experience some of those things? And even if he didn't, so what? He didn't experience what I consider as major suffering, so his suffering isn't important enough to justify seeking professional help?

So if your comment was about understanding other's suffering, and we mistook it for judging, comparing, measuring, and undermining suffering, then could it be that your writing skills were as much to blame as our reading skills? Just something to consider.

And while I am at it—

Thall wrote: "you think these 20-something old or maybe even teenager girls have ever experienced the 'realities of life' that they are using as a defense to justify their escapism?"

Well, it's not my place to judge whether they've experienced enough suffering to justify escapism.

Just like it's not my place to measure their suffering based on their coping strategy—relax with a light-hearted book or try to understand the philosophy of pain.

I do have a question though: why are people being compelled to justify their reading choices—as escapism or anything else—in the first place?

Someone reads a light genre. Why? They enjoy it. It makes them happy. That's it. Why do they need to elaborate?

And why are they being made to feel they're inferior because they read that genre?

[Hifza]

Hey guys!

Since it's October I wanted to suggest that we read something from the horror genre. I haven't explored much of it personally so I can't suggest a specific book yet. But any horror classic is always an option.

Just a suggestion, open to anything else as well :D

[Ramla Zareen]

Hifza wrote: "Hey guys!

Since it's October I wanted to suggest that we read something from the horror genre. I haven't explored much of it personally so I can't suggest a specific book yet. But any horror class..."

This sounds interesting. I've read very little Horror myself. One of my friends was into Christopher Pike books when we were in our teens, and I borrowed a book from her out of curiosity. I don't remember the story, but it freaked me out. Lol. I think it was about teenagers turning into cannibals and eating other teenagers? Or something like that. Absolutely horrifying. My friend loved his books though. To each their own :-)

Anyway, I'll be interested in seeing which book you guys pick if you decide to go ahead with this. The discussions should be fascinating. Lol.

[Hifza]

@RamlaThat does sound scary :D!

Something along the lines of Lovecraftian horror or even Edgar Allan Poe. Shirley Jackson even. Psychological horror is more scary than gore in my experience. I think it also translates better in writing since gore is more effective visually i.e think of the "saw" movies

[Zarshal]

Unfortunately, I haven't had a very good experience with horror. I've tried reading horror novels two times now, and I'm not so sorry to admit that I don't like it at all.

One of the books was about some haunted house I think, that basically had something to do with an author's dead wife and a writer's block that drove him to his haunted lake house. A quick google search reminded me that the book was named Bag Of Bones. Honestly, it was a below-average read. I was quite looking forward to reading Stephen King, but I ended up fighting with all my willpower to go through the whole book (Which, I might add, was REALLY long. And it wouldn't have been an issue had that book not been so weird and boring and not scary at all.)

Well, at least I finished that one. I decided to give horror another chance because, well, I don't like not liking books unless they're particularly bad, I wanted to give it another chance before I decided I hated horror novels.

Anyhoo, I picked up something called A Good And Happy Child, or something along those lines, (I'm bad at remembering names, I'm sorry if I wrote that wrong.) 8 months and 3 chapters later, my husband returned that book to the library yesterday. (Yes, I loaned that book from the library for 8 straight months! I'm surprised the library didn't fine me or asked me to bring it back xD)

So, that was my sad story experimenting with this genre. Or maybe I happened to pick up two of the particularly disastrous attempts at horror novels? Idk. Whatever the reason, I conclude that I do not like this genre.

But again as @Ramla put it: To each their own.

[Hifza]

@zarshal

that's hilarious xD.

Yes, King's writing is very dry and most people in my circle of readers have not enjoyed his books.

I recently read Poe's short stories and really enjoyed them. Very psychologically triggering. The first few pages are rough but once one gets used to the way he writes they are an enjoyable read.

[Hifza]

Also Rebecca by Du Maurier is a fun read too. It's explores a unique kind of horror. Something akin to imposter syndrome and the lengths one goes to, to feel validated.

[Ramla Zareen]

Hifza wrote: "Psychological horror is more scary than gore in my experience. I think it also translates better in writing since gore is more effective visually."

Good point. Speaking of Psychological Horror, my husband has been after me to watch The Silence of the Lambs with him on Netflix. I haven't screwed up my courage yet. Lol. But I believe the movie is based on a book by Thomas Harris. You can check it out for independent reading @Hifza if you guys are not doing Horror for the buddy read. As @Zarshal doesn't like this genre. Which I can totally relate to :-)

[Hifza]

aww totally, it's alright ;)

Yes I've watched that one and it's not scary per say more...weird. Doesn't age well on some topics however. You'll know what I mean once you watch it :D lol. Jodie foster is pretty amazing in it.

The book is on my tbr tho :D!

[Zarshal]

Ramla Zareen wrote: "Hifza wrote: "Psychological horror is more scary than gore in my experience. I think it also translates better in writing since gore is more effective visually."

Good point. Speaking of Psycholog..."

Ramla please watch Silence of the Lambs. I urge you, it's too good to be kept in your tbw! xD And if you're worried it's going to be scary, it's not so much scary as it is disturbing (as in cannibalism and stuff.)
But it's so worth all the nightmares you'll get afterwards. If you have a weak stomach for psychological thrillers and disturbing horror movies that is. ;)

[Zarshal]

Hifza wrote: "@zarshal

that's hilarious xD.

Yes, King's writing is very dry and most people in my circle of readers have not enjoyed his books.

I recently read Poe's short stories and really enjoyed them. V..."
Ikr. I'll have nightmares about reading Stephen King's books, not because they're scary but because they're so boring! ._.

[Ramla Zareen]

Hifza wrote: "Also Rebecca by Du Maurier is a fun read too. It's explores a unique kind of horror. Something akin to imposter syndrome and the lengths one goes to, to feel validated."

Yes, I enjoyed Rebecca when I read it. A long time ago. I'm not sure if it could be considered a Horror book though. More like Gothic Romance aka Historical Romantic Suspense. So a mix of Romance, Mystery, Suspense and yes, a little Horror. I also enjoyed Jamaica Inn by Daphne du Maurier.

[Hifza]

@Ramla

Yes you're right. The romance part is very questionable too to me xD. Suspense and Gothic is spot on.

I tried watching the movie after reading the book and it was an absolute bore. Would not recommend :(

[Ramla Zareen]

@Hifza @Zarshal

Thank you for your feedback on The Silence of the Lambs. I guess I'll watch it after all. My husband will be happy, and if I wake him up with nightmares then it will be his own fault. Lol.

@Hifza

Maybe we could buddy read the book together one of these days? As the book is in your TBR?

@Zarshal

Would you be interested too?

But only if I survive the movie. Lol. Or would it be better to read the book first?