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message 51:
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Melissa
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Sep 08, 2015 09:10PM
Yes I am, Prior Lake ;)
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Cool! I'm in St. Paul. Do you do any writer's groups? I just joined one and attended my first meeting tonight. It was... good, bad, weird, and overall probably helpful. People are all of those things in general, so I don't know what I expected. :)
Funny! I was thinking of asking you the same thing the other day. Actually it was the second thing I thought of. Nope, make that the third. The first was that I loved your little promo video. The second thing, was omg I need a video! Then I thought... I wonder if your in any writing groups and maybe I should join. So... No, I'm not. I've looked into them, but there isn't too much on this side of town. Which one did you join? And what was the bad/weird part of it? Love what I've read of your book so far. The first scene as she's trying to get out of the cryo tube really grabbed me; I was frantic with her. And way to up the game... at least for me, by making such a fun video. I put my 7 yr old to work in mine, and made him re enact some movie scenes. He has a slight speech impediment, so his Capt. Mal/Wash lines from Serenity crack me up.
Good news - I got an extension! Now I have another four weeks to get 680 pre-orders :PStill... I'm stoked
Hey all,I am Amanda Orneck, author of the short story "Birth Pains" in the Winter's Eye anthology, and the writer of Shadow of the Owl on Inkshares.
John Robin was kind enough to invite me to this group, and I think it's awesome that the Inkshares writers have a place to congregate and collaborate.
Welcome Jayna!And...
Welcome Melissa! I remember ordering your book, the 1100+ page behemoth it is! That's truly heroic writing.
And...
Hi Amanda! I just grabbed a copy of your book now!
Good luck with the crowdfunding, ladies!
Adam wrote: "Good news - I got an extension! Now I have another four weeks to get 680 pre-orders :PStill... I'm stoked"
Awesome! Preorder incoming in 3...2...1....
Thanks Dave... I really appreciate it. Yes, I was worried the size might scare people off, considering it's just book 1 of an eventual 6 book series. If I get it printed it would be about the size of Game of Thrones, with the teeny tiny print. So really not all that bad.
Mod
The group I joined is here:
http://www.meetup.com/MinnSpec/
That's the big umbrella group. There are smaller ones for different areas of town, so I bet there's one closer to you. I attended the East St Paul one last night.
It was weird because the group was clearly well-established and it really felt like they thought I didn't belong there at first. Maybe because I didn't look like I fit in... nerds and geeks can be just as mean and exclusive as anyone. (It might have been my social anxiety talking though.)
The first half consisted of reading from a writing textbook and repeating old trite pieces of writing advice as though they're gospel... I think you can write whatever the hell you want, as long as you know what you're doing.
"Avoid lengthy description and meandering narrative!" Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell has been absurdly successful, sooo... people like different things.
"No adverbs!" Screw you, one of my characters used MOSTLY adverbs. It's part of his voice and I love him.
"Show, don't tell!" Sometimes telling is what works in a scene!
(I am a rather belligerent person when it comes to pat, simplistic answers.)
The critiques portion seemed pretty helpful, though. I'll go back just for that.
Cara: Oh I know... I hate those "rules" especially the adverb one. There was also one I read once about never using the word THAT. How does THAT work? The show don't tell thing I get, but it shouldn't be sacrosanct. It all depends on the scene. If I described every little moment that surrounds the character, and never just told to keep the pacing going, it would be twice as long as it already is... My biggest pet peeve tho is the no prologue rule ::what??:: Where did that one come from. One blogger even admitted she skips the prologue, people like that aren't respecting the work. It's a piece of art like anything else, it's all part of the artist's vision. Look at all the movies that have one. How does it not work, especially in world building where the reader is joining a new place they know nothing about? Yet I kept hearing it... So of course this scared me. In my website and on Inkshares I didn't call it a prologue, I gave the first chapter a title while the rest are just numbered hoping to differentiate it. We should start a thread about these kinds of issues. I'd like to know what others think. I have strong feelings on these issues too. Here is a great article tho, that calmed my fears a bit.http://www.helpingwritersbecomeauthor...
HAHA! Thought you could hide from ME?I'm Eric Landreneau, author of "Beneath White Clouds" on Inkshares, and accidental entrant to the Nerdist contest.
I also have a big fat fantasy full of shamanism and magitek which I self-published: "BREAK! A Tale of Cursed Blood."
Other recent achievements: I have a story in the forthcoming anthology "Women in Practical Armor," and I was almost on time for work today. Almost. Just got a little distracted on twitter. and facebook. and wordpress. And then the cat... ugh, you know how it is.
Anyway, Ihave reasonably good representations of myself here, and on inkshares, and at ericlandreneau.wordpress.com
Glad to join the party!
Welcome Eric! I just preordered! Good luck!For anyone else looking for his book, it's here:
https://www.inkshares.com/projects/be...
Melissa wrote: "Cara: Oh I know... I hate those "rules" especially the adverb one. There was also one I read once about never using the word THAT. How does THAT work? The show don't tell thing I get, but it should..."I start with a favorite quote from Gogol Bordello:
"Uncover rules of life,
And how to break them well"
It's good to spend some time thinking about these rules as you come across them, try to understand what important point is trying to be made. But then it is especially important to take that info and make an informed choice that fits your writing style. And think about the rules you hear as you read, too - see when and where these rules are broken, and if that effects you or not. Sometimes it'll detract from the story, sometimes it won't.
I can see the drive behind the "no prologue" thing. It's a push to get writers to skip laying the foundation and get right into writing the events of the story - the action. I can see that, I can jive with that, but my first novel still has a big fat prologue with absolutely no human characters, and I stand by it. Granted, it's a minimum of summary, a maximum of direct action, and the characters are principal villains, which gets me to this:
Not a rule, just how I try to do it. "Show, don't tell" is very important, especially in the beginning of a story. If the story starts out with lots of directly-described worldbuilding, direct characterization and fat paragraphs of summarized backstory, it'll probably only be interesting to the author. I encourage all to strive to reveal their characters' characters, the setting and background through characters' words and actions as much as possible. Especially at the beginning. Deeper into the story, once your readers are hooked, you can relax a bit, stretch out into some long-winded internal monologues or a few long paragraphs of background info.
That might be what the "no prologue" person was really trying to get at - lead with action, with people we can care about doing and saying stuff that we can imagine.
Not to say that "telling" won't sell. I've seen plenty of books published, on bookshelves and bestseller lists from major, established authors, that are just piles of longwinded summarization and backstory. 4 pages of "telling" backstory with every new character. Made me want to vomit in my hands, but someone's buying them.
Penultimate point: stay true to you, because WTF do I or anyone know? Write it the right way for you. Who cares if it'll sell or not? If we were writing to make money, we'd all be writing code, not prose.
Dave wrote: "Welcome Eric! I just preordered! Good luck!For anyone else looking for his book, it's here:
https://www.inkshares.com/projects/be..."
awwwww, Daaaaave!
THAT guy's awesome!
I BRING PRESENTS!For anyone with an e-reader of any sort:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
Use the coupon code JA52C and see what happens.
Melissa wrote: "TIf I get it printed it would be about the size of Game of Thrones..."We need more books like that. I don't know about you, but as a fantasy ready, there's nothing more exciting than getting about 200-300 pages into a rich fantasy book that I don't want to put down and knowing there's still 600+ pages of excitement ahead of me!
Free is awesome. So very awesome. <3Eric wrote: "I BRING PRESENTS!
For anyone with an e-reader of any sort:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
Use the coupon code JA52C and see what happens."
Eric: I totally agree with you on every point, it's all in how these rules are broken that makes or breaks a scene. In my third book, I used a prologue for the first time, I don't tell the reader who it is, just take you right into the scene. A few paragraphs in you realize it's the main antagonist from book 1 and 2 who shouldn't technically exist and then it's revealed the scene is six years before book 1. Which sets up the new story arc. After doing this I decided to add similar prologues to the beginning of every book, highlighting a moment in the past that sets the story to come. Instead of having someone just tell the protagonist about it. In the following books the prologue highlights an event that was only mentioned before. This time putting you right there to experience the moment as it happens, revealing a lot more about it. After the prologue is a small poem that hints at what's to come, while separating it from the actual first chapter. If anyone is curious it's the section I included on Inkshares.
My name is Jodhan, no abbreviation or nickname.I've been an avid fan of sci-fi and fantasy for most of my life For more than twenty five years I’ve been writing stories. I've had the seed of my first novel (To Kill a King) in my head since I started writng; with a lot of extra plot and world development ready to pour into further writing - enough to write several different series as well as short stories.
John wrote: "Melissa wrote: "TIf I get it printed it would be about the size of Game of Thrones..."We need more books like that. I don't know about you, but as a fantasy ready, there's nothing more exciting t..."
I like a thick tome, that in a pinch can be used as a melee weapon. Longer books allow for more character growth and depth, and slow burning plot lines. Mine's not quite 900 pages, but I think 650 has a pretty nice weight.
Jae wrote: "Longer books allow for more character growth and depth, and slow burning plot lines. Mine's not quite 900 pages, but I think 650 has a pretty nice weight. "Darn, we need a like button here! Just love this, Jae. Hmm...at the rate this group is growing, we might end up migrating to our own Inkshares author promotion forum. (Hint hint)
Wait... there is a rule against prologues? ::hides current prologue chapters I'm working on::
What.... is this rule?
Richard,Prologues can be a tricky business. One camp believes that they are unnecessary and that you should jump straight in to the story. The other feels that they can be integral to the plot or the world, setting up what is going on before the the protagonist steps onto his journey.
Me, I love prologues.
I had a prologue for Silver Eyes and just ended up mashing it together with the first chapter. I think prologues can be a good way to get into a novel.
Length of book along with the necessity of a prologue should not be hard-and-fast rules but should serve the story. Both 'The Life Engineered' and 'A God in the Shed' were born without prologues but had it recommended by a dev editor so were added. In both cases it was done to set the tone of the book where the first Chapter didn't (scifi for 'The Life Engineered' and the horror aspect of fantasy in 'A God in the Shed')Your book should be long enough to tell your story. No less and certainly no more. If you have a 300 page story but you bloat it up to 900 because that's what you see other authors do or you feel that the thicker the book the more legitimate your effort then you're setting yourself up for some might pacing problems. Or entire storylines that serve no purpose to your narrative (looking at you Dance of Dragons).
You'll notice that 'story first' is something I fall back on a lot.
I feel a lot of writers fall into the trap of forgetting what their story is about. It's easy to get lost in cool ideas or what ifs, muddling what it is you're trying to convey as a writer. I never understood "kill all your darlings" until my third edit. Reading every line, making sure it serves the purpose of the story. That's the thing about prologues and page counts. If they serve the story you are telling, and are relevant to what is going on, then you're golden.
Then there's Proust.
A hard part is getting over the bias, it's hard to see if something is bloated or not when it's your own. I've edited my books so many times, especially the first one, since my writing voice changed as time went on, or I discovered new issues that I need to pay more attention too, like the show don't tell. I've also read a lot more about the Hero's journey 'template' and saw an article about the differences between the story arc if it's a male or female hero. I was pleasantly surprised to know that since my hero is female, I ended up following this template very closely. Not because I was trying to fit a mold of any kind, it was completely by accident. It just... felt right. Plus after the icky-poo hits the fan, there should be some kind of healing process, or come down, or something that proves these are humans and they react in human ways. They don't yell "Get in the choppa'" and fly away unscathed with a casual one-liner.
I wrote my prologue precisely because an industry veteran thought my novel didn't start off with the kick it needed, but it's where it had to start. So in goes the prologue to really hook people and then return to chronological order with chapter 1.
Also Hi Jodhan! Welcome to the herd!
I'd give away the paperback version, but Amazon would take issue. But if anyone's interested, it's thick enough for cudgeling. Happy to give away the e-book - happier still for anyone willing to rate it.Completely agree with J-F: story first. I'm proud that my next book is going to be 1/3 the length of my first. But if it had needed to be bigger, so be it. I prefer brevity and fast action, but sometimes a good long tale is really satisfying.
Dave wrote: "Free is awesome. So very awesome. <3
Eric wrote: "I BRING PRESENTS!
For anyone with an e-reader of any sort:
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view...
Use the coupon code JA52C and see what..."
Hi there, I'm J.M. Briggs author of the Iron Realm the first of my Iron Soul series. I've already written books two and three, but I'm feeling a bit overwhelmed by the publishing and marketing side of things. I'm super happy that groups like this are here to help and support. I don't want the stress to make me lose my love of writing.
Dave wrote: "I wrote my prologue precisely because an industry veteran thought my novel didn't start off with the kick it needed, but it's where it had to start. So in goes the prologue to really hook people..."
Dave wrote: "I wrote my prologue precisely because an industry veteran thought my novel didn't start off with the kick it needed, but it's where it had to start.
So in goes the prologue to really hook people..."
Hi back Dave. The heard is the word.I love my prologue, and have enjoyed many a good prologue in my day... but there were a few that did nothing for the book.
Hello all!John Robin invited me here, so if I break anything, you can blame him ;-) The book I have listed in Inkshares is called The Devil You Know and can be found here:
https://www.inkshares.com/projects/th...
I've written books in two other series, but they are geared more toward teenage readers. Devil is aimed at an adult audience, so I thought I'd try some different things to get the word out there for it. I'm hoping to have the first draft done in the next month or two. It's at about 55K words right now. I have a stack of followers that I need to catch up on and plan to tackle that this weekend. Anyway, glad to meet everyone and please feel free to ask questions or just say "Hi" if you want!
Been lurking for a while - popping up in a couple other threads, but figured I'd properly introduce myself since there are so many new people.I'm Liam, and my project was Rockets: http://www.inkshares.com/projects/roc...
I was a participant in the previous Inkshares contest, for Sword & Laser, but didn't make the top 10. I had been one of the earlier featured pieces that Inkshares promoted for the contest, but my own crowdfunding efforts were lackluster to say the least.
So if anyone would like to talk about the ups and downs, from someone who's been through it, I'm around.
I'm thinking, I should have asked for more days on my inkshares bid. 100days is not going to cut the mustard. Oh well the writing is the important part.
I know I posted this badboy somewhere else on this site, but if anyone is interested in looking up my inkshares submission here's the link. I added the prologue and did some chapter restructuring yesterday.https://www.inkshares.com/projects/to...
Hey everyone! Thanks to John R. for inviting me to the group. I'm the author of "The Elements: Descension". Very excited to be here and pick everyone's brains. Together, we can do this.
Side note: I'm seeing a lot of Minnesotans on here. Me too! Located in Saint Paul.
Mod
ST PAUL REPRESENT
At this point we could do a meet-up at FallCon or something!
I'm from Iowa which is very very close to Minnesota! Midwest represent :D.
Hi everyone!My name is Jordan and I am the author of Jadenel. I only heard of Inkshares when this whole Nerdist contest started, so I decided to give it a chance. However, the book I entered is still in the drafting stages of a full on rewrite. I've been hoping that doing this would push me through the college overload I'm currently experiencing and force me to write through it. Happy to report that it's working thanks to all the twitter support I've been getting. I feel like a complete idiot not trying to reach out earlier than this to join such an amazing group of people. I'll just blame it on being 21 and leave it at that!
And thank you John for putting this together, or at least bringing my attention over here!
Jordan wrote: "And thank you John for putting this together, or at least bringing my attention over here! "Credit goes to Joe Terzieva for putting this group together -- totally a great idea and I'm thrilled at what's happening here!
Hi everyone, I'm Jamie. I think I've chatted with a couple of people here over the last week or so, thanks for inviting me to the group.:-). There's a load of different projects people here are working on that I'm really aching to see published, as I've really enjoyed what I've read so far!The main project I've got on Inkshares at the moment is actually a satire about the privatisation of the British health care system. As you may have gathered, this is not fantasy. (It's not even that fantastical!).
But I also have a fantasy novel that I have put up more recently, and which I hope to concentrate on at some point in the future, which is a story about stories, lots of interlinked stories, and what happens when the walls between these stories begin to thin and break down, when the characters start to realise they are fictional... Hmm, that sounds a bit pretentious. It's not as serious as all that. I mean, there's, like, dragons and talking fish and stuff like that in it, too.
I'm a doctor working in primary care in the UK. I had a dark fantasy novel published by Necro a couple of years ago, and a few short stories published here and there.
Nice to meet you all :-)
Hi all, I'm Alex Bittner author of Daughter of the Mara, currently in the Nerdist contest. I had never heard of Inkshares before this contest and was about to start reaching out to agents/publishers with my book but this is way more fun. I'm loving this community so far. You guys are awesome. Also, a bit of self-promotion: if you haven't checked out my book you can find it here https://www.inkshares.com/projects/da...
Hello, everyone! I'm late to this party, but mostly because the internet is a vast and overwhelming place full of fanfiction, and I'm easily distracted. I'm Katy, and I'm the author of A Burning Light. I'm excited to be chatting with other authors. Professionally, I work as an editor and copyeditor, so any technical questions are welcomed. I like to talk sentence structure, so hit me up if you have any questions. (Twitter: @TheKaterTot).
Hi everybody! My name is Austin Kastl. My book is Severing Link, which is the first in a trilogy. It's part sci-fi, part satire. Like a lot of you, I'm in the Nerdist contest and am looking forward to learning from everyone. Thanks for inviting me, John!
Hello to all the new faces, and greetings to all the old faces... not that I meant you look old or anything. You're all beautiful, wonderful and creative creatures of G-d.
I can't believe I didn't know about this group! I'm Sam Pearson, author of The Otherworld Club. For a short time, I had the honor of being the highest-ranking coverless book in the Nerdist contest. Now I have a cover image, so... I have the honor of being in the Nerdist contest!John Robin invited me, and I'm excited to be here. I know a bit about stories, but nothing about promotion. I hope to learn a lot from you folks!
Mod
Sam I'm SORRY I didn't tell you about this group! I might've preordered your book before it existed; I can't remember. I'm glad you're here!
And I'm glad everyone else is here, too! This is a great forum.
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