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Under the Volcano
Under the Volcano - Spine 2014
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Discussion - Week Two - Under the Volcano - Chapter 4 - 6
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The postcard at the end of Chapter 6. He hands to Hugh. This is the heartbreak, the pivot, yet, were it to arrive in a timely fashion, really would it have slowed Geoffrey down? But now it's his excuse, he didn't get it. Pure heartbreak. Love it.
Mod
I'm guessing not much would have changed. Based on what we've read so far, would Geoffrey have had the courage to actually send her a letter? Maybe. He did, after all, write the letter that Laruelle found. But then, if they had successfully connected, Lowry would have had no story to tell.
Lowry is rather fond of deus ex machina moments like this. I suppose once you choose to limit the story to a single day, coincidence makes its appearance.
Halfway through, and I think I am preferring Graham Greene to Lowry on the whole. I think I'm just not finding that the allusions and symbols add much, and they also can seem somewhat heavy-handed. I'm not clear how the novel is connected out into the larger world, and this despite the constant barrage of symbols and allusion. I don't like literature to work like a giant decoder ring; the gloss should get you something besides the gloss itself.My overall impression of Hugh, having just finished two chapters from his perspective, is that you don't need a severe drinking problem to become a delusional narcissist. I found Geoffrey waking up drunk in the garden and thinking no one has noticed his morning drinking to be refreshing after time inside Hugh's head.
Speaking of the drinking, what is up with the fantasies of moving to Canada and living off the land while, in the present, everybody just keeps pouring the drinks out for Geoffrey? I mean I guess I knew going in that a novel about a severe alcoholic by a severe alcoholic was going to involve a lot of dysfunction, but somehow I am still surprised by the level of the dysfunction.
To put it another way, why is everybody back here to help if they're not actually going to do anything to help? Or, if they're not here to help, why are they back here? What is Yvonne doing here? She says she's come back to her husband, whom she just got done divorcing, which is already a strange story. What is Hugh doing here? If it's to take care of Geoffrey, he's hitting the external symptoms only, and if it's not to take care of Geoffrey, then what is it?
I may need to go back and look for textual clues for some pretty basic information. On the other hand, I may end up deciding that the payoff isn't worth this effort. Shouldn't a difficult text yield up more rewards than this for the effort put in? Am I just being cranky?
Nicole wrote: "Halfway through, and I think I am preferring Graham Greene to Lowry on the whole. I think I'm just not finding that the allusions and symbols add much, and they also can seem somewhat heavy-handed...."Nicole,don't give up. I suggest that after finishing the week's reading,look up the hypertextual companion- hopefully,it'll clear all your doubts.
I didn't mean to sign in today cause I'm still mulling over certain things in the second week's three chapters but your post makes it kind of urgent that I respond- see,unlike drug addiction,alcoholism is something that ppl don't take that seriously & so you'll find Hugh saying something like-He holds his drink well so what's the problem?
And that's generally the attitude of the menfolk- as long as a guy can handle his drinking,let him be.
And then the Consul is such an expert at putting on an act for everyone's benefit- oh,how he got everybody fooled haha when all the time the joke has been on him!
Another thing you must remember is that a lot of material here has come from Lowry's own life- the things that we are finding bewildering and nonsensical were part of Lowry's own harrowing reality- the guy & his wives ( both of those women) lived that hell.
Treat this book with patience & you'll find the payoffs.
Btw,I enjoyed your post a lot :-)
Mod
The text should yield rewards AND you're being cranky.
One point I suggested in the Week One intro was that this is structured like a film noir script. We open with the cloudy facts about the Consul having lived his last painful day exactly one year before. The rest of the book is going to slowly unwind, clue after clue, detail after detail, confusing-dysfunctional-moment after confusing-dysfunctional-moment as we follow the characters through the final fateful day of poor Geoffrey Firmin.
BTW, the word "faustian" is often associated with this book, which might be something interesting to think about. And also, what's the deal with the volcanoes? The day of the dead? Hugh's potential futile gesture to help the loyalists in Spain? And exactly how many of these characters did Yvonne bed?
In other, other words, if you stick with this book, you're going to take the same trip these effed-up characters took, one swig at a time.
Oh don't worry, I'm not abandoning. This is not at the level of me not finishing the book; I think my post sounds more negative than I mean it to be, because I'm trying to think through why I feel like I'm not getting it. I've also been using the hypertextual companion quite a bit, though I think this is part of my frustration right now. I feel like if I look something up in the references, it should help to clear stuff up without being the entire answer. Here I often have a sneaking suspicion that the references are ends in themselves, if that makes sense.
Example: if he's in the garden of eden as well as his back garden, then how does than make any difference, either to the book or to the things it references? If our entire answer is "oh, hey, it's the garden of eden, I get it!", then I am not going to consider that a successful use of symbolism/allusion. If that makes sense.
I think my bafflement about the drinking is more mundane. Sure, the people may not think it's a big deal, but that then does not explain their longs trips to Mexico to see their drunken family member. OTOH, if you take the time to make such a trip, it seems that perhaps more action is called for than filling the tooth mug with rum so that you can shave the guy without killing him. But perhaps this is a portrait of denial in action.
I'll be watching this spot, though, because I often find reading the discussion is helpful for me when trying work out my own thoughts.
Nicole wrote: "Sure, the people may not think it's a big deal, but that then does not explain their longs trips to Mexico to see their drunken family member. ..."Co-dependance. We're seeing the Consul on his last day, and at his worst. Yvonne, Hugh and Jacques also so him when he was at his best, and apparently he was a pretty suave bastard. For all his faults our satellite characters look up to him.
After the relative normality of chapter 4 I've really enjoyed chapter 5. It's scary but sort-of fun being inside Geoffrey's head as he's relatively sober. I suppose some of the scenes are quite comedic, i.e. sneaking a drink from a bottle hidden in the garden, Mr Quincey's disapproval, Mr Quincey's cat etc. The time lapses seem to be screwing with Geoffrey's brain just as much as the imaginary(?) insect swarm at the end.Dr. Vigil appears to be nearly as bad as Geoffrey. And why is Geoffrey in the bathroom all the time?
Mod
The bugs part was kind of creepy. I suppose that's a symptom of the alcohol dementia.
What did you think about being inside of Hugh's head? Just a tad narcissistic, no? I'm curious to see if he follows through on the plan to help the Loyalists in Spain.
Jim wrote: "What did you think about being inside of Hugh's head? Just a tad narcissistic, no? I'm curious to see if he follows through on the plan to help the Loyalists in Spain..."I just figured that he was trying to impress Yvonne most of the time. He came across as a bit pompous really. I haven't read Ch. 6 yet though.
Mod
Ah, okay. What's been spinning in my head since yesterday is the contrast between what goes on in the two brothers' heads. Quite a difference, although mostly in content.
The inside of Hugh's head is just an awful place to be, I found. I did think that the picture of Hugh's political "commitment" was very savvy; that his desire for self-sacrifice and lack of comfort was actually a kind of narcissism as well as being a public relations ploy struck me as very much on the nose as a portrait of this kind of person.
He may not be any better at assessing how he comes across to others, but at least the inside of Geoff's head is somewhat amusing.
(See, I'm coming around already.)
Jim wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "After the relative normality of chapter 4 I've really enjoyed chapter 5. It's scary but sort-of fun being inside Geoffrey's head as he's relatively sober. I suppose some of the sce..."Hugh is trying so damn hard to impress. Definitely living in the shadow of his brother. The whole press release thing was hilarious, what better way to alienate yrself from the salty seamen.
Jonathan wrote: "After the relative normality of chapter 4 I've really enjoyed chapter 5. It's scary but sort-of fun being inside Geoffrey's head as he's relatively sober. I suppose some of the scenes are quite com..."re: the bathroom, I think time is relative, he's coming in and out of blackouts.
Larry wrote: "re: the bathroom, I think time is relative, he's coming in and out of blackouts. "I wondered if he had a secret stash of alcohol in there, but he was always sipping (the same?) beer.
I thought the blackout effect with the scenes changing was handled excellently by Lowry. You soon get used to there being missing chunks of time, as Geoffrey must have got used to it as well.
No stash, Geoffrey makes us quite aware of where he knows he can get booze. Beer to him is just a placeholder between drinks. He's so proud when he can avoid taking a sip of booze for a couple minutes, he was doing the same with this beer as it got flat. His mind is always thinking about the tequilla in the bushes.
Mod
That part of his inner monologue was just horrible. Alcoholism (and addiction in general) is a terrible way to go...
Jim wrote: "That part of his inner monologue was just horribl..."Horrible to deal with yet one of the most poetically accurate depiction of the grip of addiction I've read. A terrible way to go indeed.
Mod
And also, there are times when he's not sure if he's said something out loud, or only in his head - as well as did he do "x" or only imagine he did "x". I imagine this uncertainty about what is and isn't happening could be contributing to his inability to speak to Yvonne. The man is completely befuddled...
Nicole wrote: I think I'm just not finding that the allusions and symbols add much, and they also can seem somewhat heavy-handed. I'm not clear how the novel is connected out into the larger world, and this despite the constant barrage of symbols and allusion. I don't like literature to work like a giant decoder ring; the gloss should get you something besides the gloss itself.Lowry's ambition for this book was huge & while on one hand, all the myths,allusion,and symbols help his tale reach tragedy of Biblical proportions in the idea of sin,damnation,and redemption of man ( check the three epigraphs), the language involving such methodology reminds us of Faust,Shakespearean tragedies,Joyce,and Faulkner- how then can the allusions and symbols not add much? For example:
When the sleeping Consul's snores remind Hugh of "muted voice of England long asleep"–the reference being to England ditching its responsibilty towards the Loyalists in Spain- does not the symbolism in one leap connect Geoffrey's isolated world to England's political apathy outside & that's just one example. One could go on & on,but you get the idea.
My overall impression of Hugh, having just finished two chapters from his perspective, is that you don't need a severe drinking problem to become a delusional narcissist. I found Geoffrey waking up drunk in the garden and thinking no one has noticed his morning drinking to be refreshing after time inside Hugh's head.
Same here! But they are half-brothers,some similarities will be there–maybe they got this trait from their father who was perhaps a restless,"delusional narcissist" as well- having abandoned his two sons to their fate in a foreign land.
Jim wrote: BTW, the word "faustian" is often associated with this book, which might be something interesting to think about. And also, what's the deal with the volcanoes?I get the idea of Faust connection in terms of sin and damnnation & the clock imagery–anything else?
What's the Consul's Faustian bargain?
As for the volcanoes- I haven't paid too much attention to them- they are there,dominating the background. The basic idea of a Volcano imagery is that of impending danger- that it may be sleeping now but that it could erupt anytime.
In chapter 3, the Consul had thought of them as symbols of perfect marriage; Popocatepetl watching over the sleeping Ixtaccihuat. But now in Chapter 6, the Consul seems to identify with them:
"lifting his face towards the volcanoes and feeling his desolation go out to those heights where even now at mid-morning the howling snow would whip the face, and the ground beneath the feet was dead lava, a soulless petrified residue of extinct plasm in which even the wildest and loneliest trees would never take root."
Perhaps we would learn more as we read further along.
With the entry of Hugh,the sunshine,the outside world with its political developments,reach the "crepuscular" world of Calle Nicaragua. The ideas that were introduced in passing are fleshed out now- President Cárdenas' model farms,money being distributed by the Ejido via people like Juan Cerillo,Germany's rising influence in Spain & even in Mexico & by contrast, England being persona non grata & that shows just how precarious the Consul's position is here.Yet Hugh's world is not all sunshine - guilt and darkness rear their heads in the grove:
"the countryside on either hand smiled upon them with deceptive innocence, a drowsy hum rose up from the morning, the mares nodded, there were the foals, here was the dog, and it is all a bloody lie, he thought: we have fallen inevitably into it, it is as if, upon this one day in the year the dead come to life, or so one was reliably informed on the bus, this day of visions and miracles, by some contrariety we have been allowed for one hour a glimpse of what never was at all, of what never can be since brotherhood was betrayed, the image of our happiness, of that it would be better to think could not have been."
Am I being ghoulish if I say I rather prefer the chapters that focus on the Consul?
Maybe cause the writing involving him is incredible!
Attention shd be paid to the Consul's self-dramatisations–he is the hero of his own tragedy- this aspect comes to the forefront when he saunters over to his neighbour Mr. Quincey's garden: "Yet this opportunity to be brilliant was, in turn, more like something else, an opportunity to be admired; even, and he could at least thank the tequila for such honesty, however brief its duration, to be loved. Loved precisely for what was another question: since he’d put it to himself he might answer: loved for my reckless and irresponsible appearance, or rather for the fact that, beneath that appearance, so obviously burns the fire of genius."One really wonders if his drinking also started as a form of role play that increasingly got out of hand.
This chapter is important on so many levels- the consul's world has started unravelling now; he is seeing things-snakes,pariah dogs–the insect world is crowding upon him. Is this how an alcoholic's mind perceives reality or an alternate version of it or is it a sense of his impending doom? Yet we get brief glimpses of what this man must've been once- his hilarious interactions with the cat:"my-little-Priapusspuss, my-little-Oedipusspusspuss"–references that must've gone above the head of the 'normal' neighbour ( yet I prefer his neatly kept garden!),& that image of the insect flying free from the cat's mouth,up,up,up– beautiful!
This book is a fine example of intra-textuality where things mentioned before reappear in the text with additional details/repeated in a new context, that sometimes illuminate/sometimes confuse them even further- a case in point is the Consul's reaction to Dr.Vigil's reading of a newspaper that to his fragmented mind bring back probable headlines of a different nature-of events related to the S.S.Samaritan.
Earlier in Chapter 1,Laruelle's account of it left both either/or scenario but here the Consul's fears leave no doubt of his guilt but then again this is a man who is hearing voices,seeing invisible things so how seriously are we to take this particular response?
Again,the interactions between Yvonne and Hugh- they might've been good friends with some mutual attraction thrown in- had they really been guilty of adultery would Yvonne have freely gone riding & later swimming with him,knowing very well the Consul's suspicions? But then Hugh thinks of Judas & his betrayal of Christ ( which recalls earlier reference to the chasm that occured in Mexico when Christ was crucified-& again here"Firmin innocent, but bears guilt of world on shoulders"–the implication being perhaps that the Consul is a Christ figure?!) & later the Consul welcomes Hugh with "Hi there, Hugh, you old snake in the grass."
The readers are left as doubtful as ever!
And the foreshadowings:
Hugh is first seen wearing the Consul's jacket,his bag,his swimming trunks-& by association,also appropriating his (ex)wife? But that's too simple an association & Lowry wouldn't have stretched an obvious thing that far- I wonder what's the significance here!
Another thing,Hugh had mentioned Parián as a "sinister" place towards which his American friend Weber whom he suspects of running ammunition,"one of those American semi-fascist blokes, been in the Foreign legion"had moved to after dropping him,later the Consul mentions going there to retrieve his favourite pipe from a "Farolito" & Dr.Vigil responds to that with horror,again during the talk with Hugh in the bathroom,the Consul mentions fascist police being in charge in Parián & now they are off to Tomalin.
If the Consul has his bottle,Hugh,first had his guitar,& now the Spanish Civil War- they do share some traits- wasted potential,past regrets,& a sense of isolation:"...yet becoming increasingly conscious of loneliness, isolation—aware too of an odd habit of thrusting myself to the fore, then subsiding—as if one remembered one hadn’t the guitar after all ... Maybe I bored people with my guitar. But in a sense—who cares?—it strung me to life—)"
But more than anything,it's the search for an authentic self/life that runs commonly in their veins- the Consul is addicted to alcohol-sober only when he is not-this is what he is;take it or leave it.
Hugh's romantic ideals regarding his role in Spain might turn out to be just as misguided as they were about an earlier musical career & a seafaring adventure but at least he is seeking meaning through action even if "it had not prevented the Consul from still hinting uncomfortably close to the truth, that the whole stupid beauty of such a decision made by anyone at a time like this, must lie in that it was so futile, that it was too late, that the Loyalists had already lost, and that should that person emerge safe and sound, no one would be able to say of him that he had been carried away by the popular wave of enthusiasm for Spain."
Again,are they not similar in their self-destructive urges? In their awareness that they don't really belong anywhere?
Mod
Maybe cause the writing involving him is incredible!..."
I think it's mostly Hugh's narcissism that makes his monologues so off putting. Do we really care about his little ego crises? Not really, as compared with the dramatic death spiral Geoffrey is engaged in.
Mala wrote: "Am I being ghoulish if I say I rather prefer the chapters that focus on the Consul?"If you are, you're not alone. The gaps and back and forth in time make them technically harder to get through, but I'm enjoying them a lot more.
It's interesting that we see both the inside of his head and the space between what he thinks he looks like to others and what he actually looks like to others (here I'm thinking of especially of the scene in the garden with his neighbor, and his overall conviction that no ones knows how much he's drinking) when he's also probably the character who was most like Lowry. Is it odd that he would be able to dramatize this aspect of delusional level drinking while simultaneously engaging in it? Are we meant to see him as deluded, but not deluded about his being deluded?
I've been thinking again about the great quantity of allusions used, and am still not a huge fan. Again, I see parallels between what Geoffrey does and what Lowry does. Geoffrey's mutterings to Quincey function as a sort of interior joke that is more for its creator than its audience; they may amuse the consul but his neighbor is unlikely to either understand them or care. It's also unclear if Geoffrey really has any larger plan or meaning when he indulges in them, or if they just run through his head because they run through his head. From time to time there's a whiff of this with the main narrative also. Lowry can definitely pack it in, but more is not necessarily better.
I'm hoping this will improve or become clear in the second half. But right now, the garden of eden thing isn't doing it for me, though the misread sign thing is sort of cute, it seems to stop at cute. For me. Right now.
Mod
I'm hoping this will improve or become clear in the second half. But right now, the garden of eden thing isn't doing it for me, though the misread sign thing is sort of cute, it seems to stop at cute. For me. Right now..."
There are at least two ways to look at the points you're raising about Lowry's writing. First possibility is that the technique/style is not to your liking, which is quite normal, as no writer can write in a way that satisfies all readers. Can't be done.
The second way, and the way I try to use when I'm not enjoying a particular text is to ask if the writer's technique/style is intentional or a mistake. When I was reading the first half of chapter six and Hugh was going on and on and on and on about the guitar and the ship and the this and the that I thought, "Yawn... this book is overrated." But then I asked myself, is this boredom a bug or a feature? Is Lowry boring me so that I'll think of Hugh as a boring narcissist? If it's Lowry's intent, then the passage is working perfectly. I'm also hoping that all the heavy handed allusions and whatnot are going to serve some important purpose by the end of the book.
This is my first encounter with Lowry's work and so I can't tell yet if the writing is good or bad or mixed, and probably won't know until the end. Maybe part of the book's fame is it's ability to put us inside the head of a severe alcoholic and get the vicarious thrill of watching a man stumble through his final hours.
Jim wrote: "What did you think about being inside of Hugh's head? Just a tad narcissistic, no? I'm curious to see if he follows through on the plan to help the Loyalists in Spain. "Finished Ch. 6. I don't find Hugh too narcissistic or self-obsessed; I mean we're inside his head after all so I don't think it's unreasonable that he's thinking about himself for a lot of the time. Besides, he's going through a bit of a crisis within his life. It may seem a bit mundane compared to what's going on in Geoffrey's head but it's probably closer to what most of us have to deal with in our lives.
I wonder if we get to see Yvonne's side at any point?
Jonathan wrote: "I wonder if we get to see Yvonne's side at any point? "Chapter 2 is Yvonne.
Ch. 4: Yvonne and Hugh are back in the saddle again.
Ch. 5: The consul gets his beer on while the ex and his half-brother take a dip.
Ch. 6:
When I was Twenty-nine,
it was a very weird year.
I was a sailor-man,
I was a balladeer.
“Hugh, come lend a hand with this bloody razor!”
I I, me me, mine.
I I, me me, mine.
“Right. Off we go now…”
And so all the players are on stage. We've got enough backstory to move into the main event - the bull throwing? Or some other sport, perhaps...
To avoid spoilers, please restrict your comments to p. 7 - 197