THE POPE AND MUSSOLINI - THE SECRET HISTORY OF PIUS XI AND THE RISE OF FASCISM IN EUROPE

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Here is a repeat of message 2 which spells everything out in detail - easy as pie:

Remember the following:

Everyone is welcome but make sure to use the goodreads spoiler function.

If you come to the discussion after folks have finished reading it, please feel free to post your comments as we will always come back to the thread to discuss the book.

The rules

You must follow the rules of the History Book Club and also:

First rule of Buddy Read:
Respect other people's opinions, no matter how controversial you think they may be.

Second rule of Buddy Read:
Always, always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps:

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this:
(view spoiler)

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this:

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Chapter 1, p. 23
(view spoiler)[I know everything now about chapter one and I am going to post it here - oops I better place this in a spoiler alert so I do not ruin the book for others (hide spoiler)]

If you are raising a question/issue for the group about the book, you don't need to put that in a spoiler, but if you are citing something specific, it might be good to use a spoiler.

By using spoilers, you don't ruin the experience of someone who is reading slower or started later.

Thanks.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Fausto and Jarrad - it can’t get much easier than doing a copy of the following - this was message 3 which you only had to copy and place your comments in the area where it says place your text here.

You can copy what is below just the way it is - and then just paste it in your comment box and place what you want to say where it says Put Text Here - can’t get any easier than that - give it a try - it works, it is easy and these are the rules on a single thread discussion. We are here to help you and when you practice it on a couple of comments - you know how to do it forever.

<spoiler>Put Text Here</spoiler>

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Chapter 10 - page 136

(view spoiler)[See this is how you follow the rules and help the group and all other readers following you. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks, this is this week’s assigned reading coming up: - WEEK SIX

10. Eating an Artichoke 134 - Week of October 5, 2015 - WEEK SIX
11. The Return of the Native Son 146 - Week of October 5, 2015 - WEEK SIX

[Fausto]

Bentley wrote: "Fausto and Jarrad - it can’t get much easier than doing a copy of the following - this was message 3 which you only had to copy and place your comments in the area where it says place your text her..."

Bentley, thanks for your suggestions. I'll reply with a PM.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thanks Fausto.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks this is this week's reading assignment:

Week Seven

12. Cardinal Pacelli Hangs On 158 - Week of October 12, 2015 - WEEK SEVEN
13. Mussolini is Always Right 166 - Week of October 12, 2015 - WEEK SEVEN

[Mary]

My reading plans have been derailed. I will use this Saturday's Readathon to catch up on Mussolini!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Very good Mary - see you at the readathon.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello folks for this week we are reading the following: WEEK EIGHT

14. The Protestant Enemy and the Jews 181 - Week of October 19, 2015 - WEEK EIGHT
15. Hitler, Mussolini and the Pope 199 - Week of October 19, 2015 - WEEK EIGHT

[Mary]

Chapter 13

(view spoiler)[I looked up Arnaldo Mussolini (Benito's beloved brother) on Wikipedia, and it was interesting to read how he helped resolve the Catholic Action crisis in 1931.

But what I found even more interesting was the somewhat different take on Italians' support of Mussolini. My understanding of Kertzer's book is that there was widespread support of Mussolini by priests and people, especially in the north and central parts of Italy. This article describes some dissent and denouncing of Fascists by Catholic groups. It seems to me the fabric of Italian society at the time was more complex than Kertzer describes. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I aways suspect that what you are saying is true especially in regards to Italy which really was a conglomeration of little kingdoms for many years. There had to be still many different factions. I did not place this in a spoiler because it does not really deal with the book's text itself.

[Mary]

(view spoiler)[The book, which started out with fascinating stuff, is now bogged down, with too many details about things that don't matter, and a confusing mix of chronology and topics. The last third of the book looks promising, though. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I think it picks up. Make sure to use spoilers for what you said in message 164.

[Glynn]

Chapter 14, pg 188-189
(view spoiler)[Looks like Pius XI has some traits in common with Mussolini. He makes long rambling speeches and is never wrong! h (hide spoiler)]

[Betsy]

Astute comment

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Brilliant Glynn

[Marc]

when are we moving to the next chapters??

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

We are already doing that Marc - I will post a reminder - thank you.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

For of those of you who are with us on this journey - here are the recommended assigned reading for this week and next:

Week Nine and Week Ten

16. Crossing the Border 213 - Week of October 26, 2015 - WEEK NINE
17. Enemies in Common 227 - Week of October 26, 2015 - WEEK NINE
18. Dreams of Glory 241 - Week of November 2, 2015 - WEEK TEN

Part Three

MUSSOLINI, HITLER AND THE JEWS

19. Attacking Hitler 255 - Week of November 2, 2015 - WEEK TEN

[Mary Ellen]

I finished the book early as I had to return it to the library; then I was away for 10 days and unable to comment here!
I will try to join in discussion in response to others' comments, but unfortunately I did not take notes, so can't connect my thoughts to any particular chapter.
However, in general, I want to thank the group for choosing this book. It had many wince-inducing passages for me as a Catholic, but it was an area of history I knew little about. Any time I studied WWII, the focus was on Germany, with Italy and Mussolini as a kind of practice run up to the "real thing." I learned a lot from this book, although I take comments to heart that Italy under Mussolini was a more nuanced situation than the author has portrayed.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thank you Mary Ellen and I did not see any spoilers in your comments.

I am glad that you liked the book.

[Marc]

Chapter 17

(view spoiler)[
As a fan of Bob Marley, I was a little surprised to read about Haile Sallasie, wondering, it can't be the same person that Bob Marley was singing about (forever loving Jah). I had to google!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haile_S...

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastafari

Yes, it is the same person!

(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Good connection Marc

[Glynn]

Marc wrote: "Chapter 17


As a fan of Bob Marley, I was a little surprised to read about Haile Sallasie, wondering, it can't be the same person that Bob Marley was singing about (forever loving Jah). I had to g..."

wow

[Glynn]

I finished reading yesterday. I took this book out of the library at the beginning and was able to renew it a few times so I could follow along in the discussions. I took a bunch of scribbled notes so hopefully will be able to contribute more to the discussion as the weeks go by. I thoroughly enjoyed this book. It has expanded my knowledge of the world a little bit more! :)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Glynn great to hear - I think it has been quite enlightening. And it has really been helpful to learn about the history of the Italian families and their connections to the papacy.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks for this week - this is where we should be. However - if you are behind that is OK - just make sure to use the spoiler html.

24. The Racial Laws 316 - Week of November 23, 2015 - WEEK THIRTEEN
25. The Final Battle 332 - Week of November 23, 2015 - WEEK THIRTEEN

[Betsy]

I finished the book in early September, but as I was unsure what I wanted to say, I said nothing. Perhaps that is the story of this period in history. Many people said or did nothing so they let three dictators and an appeaser do their talking and thinking for them.

The first two dictators are obvious. Mussolini and Hitler got their just ends--no, that's not true since nothing in this life could have matched what they had done--however, their grandiose and malevolent dreams were thwarted.

The religious dictator's fate is not so dramatic. Pius XI sold out his people just so his Church could regain its preeminence in Italy and and the world. By trying to out manipulate each through the Latern Accords, Mussolini and the pope played a dangerous game which backfired as the reality of war caught up to them.

Fortunately for Pius XI, he only encouraged the efforts in Ethiopia and Spain before dying in 1939, a sadder but wiser man with regard to Mussolini, according to author Kertzer. It was then left to Pope Pius XII to deal with the catastrophe of of WWII.

Since Pius XII was a master appeaser, he survived the war despite questionable inactions on his part with regard to the Jews. Kertzer did not go into this in as much detail as that would entail another book.

This was an informative book, and fairly well-written, however, most of its characters are so despicable for letting their blind hatred of Communism almost destroy Europe. Obviously, that's not Kertzer's fault, but it is a warning to what can happen when good people say nothing.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Excellent post Betsy