THE POPE AND MUSSOLINI - THE SECRET HISTORY OF PIUS XI AND THE RISE OF FASCISM IN EUROPE

[Monica]

Bentley wrote: "I am sorry to hear that - but I think in a man's case and especially someone who is King - it must have been horrendous."

Maybe that explains his architectural "gift" to Rome: the Altar of the Nations monument his certainly overwhelming in size and scope.

[Monica]

Bentley wrote: "Michele regarding Fascism and your note in 58 which I do not consider a spoiler since it is really discussing something that is not part of thematic development of the book but one of the isms - le..."

very informative and well-researched post. Thank you Bentley.

[Michele]

Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[So now we get a look into Pius XI personality. He stressed obedience to proper authority, battled against "modernism", belittled the League of Nations, didn't have any sympathy for parliamentary democracy and saw communism as a grave threat. In all, he had a very medieval view of things. This seems to somewhat similar to Mussolini's view of things. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, true. Monica. You make a good point.

[G]

Chapter Two, The Fatal Embrace (view spoiler)[ On pages 47 and 48, I am a little disturbed (even given the environment) that Father Rosa, as editor of La Civiltà cattolica, changed his opinion (carefully worded thankfully) from extreme antifascism to believing 'it is ones duty to support it (the government) for public order or the common good…' Even though he was a cleric, I'd think that as a member of the fourth estate he could have stood a little stronger. Now that I am writing this, though, I realize his about face was carefully worded so as not to appear to embrace fascism the philosophy. What a tight rope the anti-fascists had to walk. (hide spoiler)]

[Mary]

I'm just joining the buddy read now and haven't had a chance to read all your comments yet. Sorry if my post is repetitious.

Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[What's interesting to me is that Pius XI was an accidental Pope to some extent. He was a librarian for much of his career. Then apparently some Church leaders in the Vatican thought he spoke Polish, so they sent him, at age 61, to the newly restored country of Poland to report on its status. His activities and insights impressed Pope Benedict XV.

If it weren't for the mistake, Achille Ratti wouldn't have been able to demonstrate his ability to analyze and provide insights. These skills led him to become Archbishop of Milan, and from there, Pope. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Mary - welcome to the read - we are glad to have you any time

(view spoiler)[Yes he was sort of the reluctant Pope - you are correct (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

There is Rosa - it is a fascinating book.

[[deleted user]]

Bentley wrote: "PRAISE

“David Kertzer has an eye for a story, an ear for the right word, and an instinct for human tragedy. They all come together in The Pope and Mussolini to document, with meticulous scholarshi..."

At least one of these plaudits commends the author for 'novelistic flair'. I had a look through the publishing details to find the word 'Fiction', but it wasn't there. So I can only assume the book is intended as a serious historical biographical study - not a novel.(view spoiler)[ But the author seems to expresses his own opinion on the personal attitudes and deeper motivations of Pius XI. Furthermore he gives little explanation of how he arrived at these conclusions. I was under the impression that present-day historians took a highly sceptical view of using reported discourse in this way - consider, for example, what future historians will make of the 'weapons of mass destruction' dialogues and the true opinions of politicians. I would have been more sympathetic to the author had he tried to set the decision making of the two principal characters in the context of their time. Because of these issues, the author lost my attention after only 100 pages. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Jack:

(view spoiler)[Everyone is entitled to their opinion Jack and of course you are entitled to yours - I am quite enjoying the book. The book's genre is non fiction.

The author's background speaks for itself - and I know that this book has been controversial but it is a very engrossing and well researched book. Additionally this thread is here for the discussion of the book and for those reading the book - it appears you stopped at 100 pages so maybe you need to give it a fair shot - if not then - thank you for your comment regarding the first 100 pages and your comments are duly noted.

Biography

David I. Kertzer's latest book, The Pope and Mussolini: The Secret History of Pius XI and the Rise of Fascism in Europe, was recently published on January 28, 2014 by Random House in North America, and will be published on March 12, 2014 by Rizzoli in Italy and in February 2014 by Oxford University Press in the UK. Using an unmatched wealth of newly available archival materials from the Vatican, it tells the dramatic story of the relation of two men who each came to power in Rome in 1922: Italian dictator Benito Mussolini and Pope Pius XI. His book, Amalia's Tale, published by Houghton Mifflin and Rizzoli in 2008, recounts the story of an illiterate Italian woman of the nineteenth century who contracted syphilis from a baby given her to nurse by the local foundling home. Amazingly, her ten year battle against the medical establishment and aristocracy led to a historic victory.

A very different battle was at the heart of Kertzer’s previous book, Prisoner of the Vatican–the tale of two popes' efforts to retake Rome from the new Italian state in the late nineteenth century–published by Houghton Mifflin in 2004. Kertzer is the Paul Dupee University Professor of Social Science at Brown University, where he is also professor of anthropology and Italian studies. His The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara (Knopf/Vintage) was a finalist for the National Book Award in 1997, and he has twice received the Marraro Prize from the Society for Italian Historical Studies for the best work on Italian history (1985, 1990). His 2001 book, The Popes Against The Jews (Knopf/Vintage), a look at the Vatican's role in the rise of modern anti-Semitism, has been published in Italian, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Brazilian, Polish, Hungarian, and British editions. Kertzer is an authority on Italian politics, society, and history; political symbolism; and anthropological demography. He is co-founder and served for many years as co-editor of the Journal of Modern Italian Studies. A play based on The Kidnapping of Edgardo Mortara, by Pulitzer and Oscar award winning playwright Alfred Uhry, was performed at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis in 2006. Kertzer appeared on screen as the primary expert for episode four of The Secret Files of the Inquisition, which aired on PBS in May 2007.

In 2005 Kertzer was elected a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. From 2006 to 2011, he was the Provost of Brown University where he is currently the Paul Dupee University Professor of Social Science and Professor of Anthropology and Italian Studies. (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Bentley wrote: "Vatican City 1929

10 Things You May Not Know About the Vatican

http://www.history.com/news/10-things...

For nearly 60 years in the 1800s and 1900s, popes refused ..."

I'm a little behind and trying to catch up. Very interesting video of the Vatican. Thanks, Bentley.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You are welcome Francie and glad that you enjoyed the video.

[Monica]

Edward wrote: "Bentley wrote: "c) The Nazis are considered to be an example of a fascist movement, but they didn't consider themselves fascist - nor did they ever use this symbol."

Bentley here makes a great poi..."

In fact, the name of the "Nazi" party was NSDAP - Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. So they seem to have covered everything with that name: the reference to socialism and workers, and the fact that they considered themselves a national German movement - referencing "das Volk". Given the state of Germany during the period of the Weimar Republic, it should not be surprising that all of these "catch words" resonated.

[Teri]

Chapters 4 and 5

(view spoiler)[I finished reading this section this morning. Kertzer sure painted Mussolini as an Italian mafia thug. Would I be correct in assuming that the Matteotti murder is the tipping point that will cause support for fascism in Italy to unravel? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes Teri.

[G]

Pius believed Mussolini would revive Italy. I wonder how Pope Francis would respond to a similar tyrant today.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

That is a very interesting question.

[Teri]

G ~ I'd like to think that Pope Francis would be more vocal against the tyranny of someone like Mussolini, but I'm afraid that the level of violence that a leader in that position would spew might silence him (or anyone). He certainly seems the type to try and work with all world leaders. Did you see that he met with Fidel Castro? See: http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/20/world/p...

[Monica]

Teri wrote: "G ~ I'd like to think that Pope Francis would be more vocal against the tyranny of someone like Mussolini, but I'm afraid that the level of violence that a leader in that position would spew might..."

there is a lot to be said about a Pope who actually reflected his "Terms of Reference" as a pastor before he became Pope and ministered to his constituents. I also believe that his Jesuit training has a lot to do with his sensibilities. If we look at the history of the Vatican, some of those Popes would have but Machiavelli to shame and often that scheming was not so much to ensure the survival of the Church but to cement their own power.

[Mary]

Monica wrote: "If we look at the history of the Vatican, some of those Popes would have but Machiavelli to shame and often that scheming was not so much to ensure the survival of the Church but to cement their own power. "

Monica, I was thinking the same thing. I know this book is not about spiritual matters, but it's rather dismaying how (view spoiler)[ Pius XI and the popes before him seemed to think that control of territory and people was their overriding concern. Pius XI never seemed to pause and reflect whether his rejection of constitutional rights and parliamentary democracy was at odds with Christ's teachings.

While Roman Catholicism remains a command-and-control religion, it's in constant evolution as it tries to remain relevant in a changing social and political landscape. (hide spoiler)]

[Mary Ellen]

I share the pain of someone else who identified as Catholic, reading this book!

And I know the book is well researched, but wondered how the author knew what Pius XI was thinking in his last days, as he writes in the Prologue.

Ever since my long-ago freshman year in college, a history course on the Renaissance gave me the firm conviction that the Catholic Church is at its best when it is politically powerless. Once one has power, it is hard to give up! And once the Church had experienced the phenomenon of medieval Europe, when government was more-or-less legitimated by religious leaders, they took as normative an identification of government, of the whole society, with Church teaching. (view spoiler)[Hence Pius XI's disdain for parliamentary democracy, church/state separation, etc. With the existence of Communist states and greater pluralism in Western society generally, what used to be viewed in the Vatican as a peculiarly "American heresy" - church/state split, freedom of religion, etc. - began to be more attractive! That said, I think it is a stretch to say that Jesus's teachings give particular support to parliamentary democracy as an ideal government! (hide spoiler)]

[Monica]

Teri wrote: "G ~ I'd like to think that Pope Francis would be more vocal against the tyranny of someone like Mussolini, but I'm afraid that the level of violence that a leader in that position would spew might..."

I believe he would have been murdered for being in the way of "larger considerations".

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks as you know we are open for discussion and this week the suggesting reading assignment and discussion focus is the following: (Chapter Six and Chapter Seven)

6. The Dictatorship 78 - Week of September 21, 2015 - WEEK FOUR
7. Assassins, Pederasts, and Spies 88 - Week of September 21, 2015 - WEEK FOUR

[Tomi]

I ordered this book last month from Amazon and it finally came in today!!! Got to catch up!

[Glynn]

Chapter 5

(view spoiler)[The author quotes Mussolini as saying that Matteotti "shouldn't be allowed to remain in circulation." but I am not sure that he meant for his goons to kill Matteotti. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

Glynn wrote: "Chapter 5

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[ Kind of like Henry II and Thomas Becket? I think, given the mans character as described by the author, there was a stronger directive at some point. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Tomi I look forward to reading your posts. We are always here.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Glynn

(view spoiler)[Well you have to admit what else could that possibly mean - or what else did he think he was putting into motion? I often wonder when folks say things that they know are going to incite their followers if they are not just trying to get done what they are hoping for without doing it themselves. Of course, it could have had another meaning - maybe to scare Matteotti or ruff him up and scaring him into giving up his causes and becoming silent. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

just started today! only at chapter 1, but so far it looks like a great book, many questions. I already learned about the big deal over castor oil, I knew of it, but not what it does to you...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Welcome Marc - no spoilers in your post above - but remember to use spoiler html in your responses for folks just starting out like yourself. (Messages 2 and 3 will help with those details - these one thread discussions are tricky so the spoiler html is used)

I think the book is well documented and researched. There were some along the way who were not as convinced (only a couple). But I like the book so far and am enjoying and learning a lot too.

[Marc]

Going back to chapter 1 (I'm still on it), I was curious about the papal states (going spoiler now)
(view spoiler)[
I saw the book talked about the fall of the papal states, then rome itself, so I wikipedia'd to learn more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_S...

What is nice is the map of what Italy was pre-Napoleon.

Then we have this map post-Napoleon.
http://image.slidesharecdn.com/nation...

(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Thank you very much Marc for those adds - very interesting

[Fausto]

Mary wrote: "Monica wrote: "If we look at the history of the Vatican, some of those Popes would have but Machiavelli to shame and often that scheming was not so much to ensure the survival of the Church but to ..."

I concur Mary.

I would add that power is an addictive agent. I can only imagine what went through the mind of popes as they saw the influence of the church giving way to a more and more modern society.

Lately they seem to be adapting much better but (view spoiler)[ during the turn of last century it was a struggle still (as per the book). (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Agreed Fausto - I think they are trying to adapt now and choosing a Jesuit as a Pope who is not a puppet but an independent thinker is helping. And I think he is developing the right balance in not throwing away the baby with the bath water and identifying where the church was too fixed on not changing or adapting only because things had never been done that way versus any church or doctrine teachings.

[G]

I apologize for lagging a little behind, but I wanted to mention an observation I had from a statement in Chapter 4 (view spoiler)[: the author mentions "What he (Mussolini) understood, in a way that none of his predecessors had, was that people were ruled most of all by emotion, and that their reality had less to do with the external world than with the symbolic one he could fashion for them." In my mind, that pretty much defines the American Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

back in chapter 2...
(view spoiler)[
where Mussolini had those guys kneel down, it was this monument
http://www.aviewoncities.com/rome/vic...

It's pretty considered too ornate for Rome, and is sometimes called the typewriter or the wedding cake (as mentioned at the bottom of that link). Note you can also take an elevator and get to the top, where the two winged chariots of victory (Quadrigae) are at, and you can get some great photos of the Roman Forum and the Colosseum, well worth the price to get to the top! I was there a few years ago, although at the time, had no idea who Victor Emmanuel II really was...
(hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

Totally agree with you Monica. (view spoiler)[ I think Pius XI was naive. I'm hoping he knew he was playing a game with Mussolini, that Mussolini was behind both the beatings of Catholics yet also propping them up. But he did willingly get in bed with a thug, what with the bashing of heads with blunt objects, crushing skulls, yeah, thug.

What I also found disturbing was the child abuse, although I should not be surprised based on all the controversy over the past couple of decades. I find this hush hush cover it up to be abhorrent, as I suspect we all feel.

climbing off my soapbox now... (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Fausto wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Agreed Fausto - I think they are trying to adapt now and choosing a Jesuit as a Pope who is not a puppet but an independent thinker is helping. And I think he is developing the rig..."

Fausto - make sure to put the part of your comment which is about the book in the spoiler html - everything about Pope Francis of course is not a spoiler (smile) - from the second paragraph on.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Monica wrote: "Fausto wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Agreed Fausto - I think they are trying to adapt now and choosing a Jesuit as a Pope who is not a puppet but an independent thinker is helping. And I think he is dev..."

Monica your post is sort of a mixed bag - the part about the popes we are talking about in the book is a spoiler and should be in spoiler html - check back to message 2 and 3 for details. Everything else is fine if it is talking about current events and personages and the current Pope.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

And now you do - thank you Marc and thank you for bringing the conversation back to the book - thank you for the links.

And everybody gets on a soapbox now and again - but a point well taken

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks, for Week Five - September 28, 2015 through October 4th - we will be reading the following:

8. The Pact 98 - Week of September 28, 2015 - WEEK FIVE

Part Two

ENEMIES IN COMMON

9. The Savior 117 - Week of September 28, 2015 - WEEK FIVE

[Jarrad]

I finished this book today and I want to say it is books like this that brought me to this book group. I learned so much while reading this book.
I would have done more with the buddy read, but I was so worried about messing up with the spoiler text.
Again I can not say how much I enjoyed this book, and now am deciding what book to read next from the different reads going on with this group!

[Fausto]

Jarrad wrote: "I finished this book today and I want to say it is books like this that brought me to this book group. I learned so much while reading this book.
I would have done more with the buddy read, but I..."

I'm on the same boat. Loved the book but felt caught up between wanting to contribute to the discussion and not wanting to violate the rules.

In any event, I finished it a few days ago. Great reading.

[Teri]

Don't worry about messing up the spoiler! We will guide you through if you make a mistake. We want you to join in, so please don't feel like you'll mess something up. You can always practice it and delete your practice. ;-)

I've been keeping up with the read but haven't read this week's yet.

What made you enjoy the book so much? Was it the writing, the story, the details? Would love your feedback.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Jarrad wrote: "I finished this book today and I want to say it is books like this that brought me to this book group. I learned so much while reading this book.
I would have done more with the buddy read, but I...”


Jarrad glad you liked the book and don’t be afraid to try with the spoiler html - it is so easy and you will get it in no time

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Tomi wrote: "Well, I am up to chapter 13. I am constantly reminded how little I know about Italian history since unification! I have always focused so much on Nazi Germany that I didn’t realize what all was g..."

Tomi make sure to use the spoiler html -

Chapter 13

(view spoiler)[Well, I am up to chapter 13. I am constantly reminded how little I know about Italian history since unification! I have always focused so much on Nazi Germany that I didn't realize what all was going on in Italy. I hope I am not spoiling anything...but so far, Mussolini doesn't sound that bad. Pius comes across as a cranky, ill-tempered man. Something else I have noticed is how everyone was so against Communism, but today Socialism is all the rage. Seems even Pope Francis is kind of socialistic.
(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Fausto wrote: "Jarrad wrote: "I finished this book today and I want to say it is books like this that brought me to this book group. I learned so much while reading this book.
I would have done more with the bu...”

Fausto - just work on trying the spoiler html. If you are spoiling something we will tell you and help you. The spoiler html is for all of the group members following you on a single thread read - we use spoiler html on single thread discussions - books of the month and buddy reads. So once you learn how to do it - it is a snap.

I will have to go back and clean up some of the spoilers for those still reading.

Place the chapter that you are reading in bold and underneath place the spoiler html or what you have to say about the chapter and then encapsulate with the spoiler html. In fact was have it set up so all you have to do is to do a copy and place your text in between. Can’t get much easier than that.

In message 134 - you seem to have gotten the hang of doing it - we require it on the single thread discussions and it is very easy - remember the discussion is for you but for all other members who come behind you and that is why we use the spoiler html.

Place in bold the chapter and page you are talking about:

Chapter Five - page 102 (just a made up example)

(view spoiler)[Place what you want to discuss in Chapter Five - page 102 in between the spoiler html (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Monica we need to place your text in spoiler html.

Response to Fausto:

(view spoiler)[”His situation is different from that of Pius XI in that he doesn’t have to worry about territorial/political influence. Those were perks (and concerns) of a foregone era. This Pope’s focus in spirituality, poverty, equality, etc, is a luxury Pius XI apparently couldn't afford".

I think that every Pope (then and now) will need to be concerned about territorial and political infighting. Well-established and entrenched bureaucracies always feel threatened when change is introduced. The external factors such as the political and social environment change but the way people who have come to enjoy power and influence react when they perceive a threat does not. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Fausto wrote in response to Bentley:

(view spoiler)[Correct!

We'll see how far this Pope goes. I'm hopeful he will bring lasting changes and meaningful adaptations to his church. He's lived a real life, even as a cardinal, and seems to have grounded feet and clear mind.

His situation is different from that of Pius XI in that he doesn't have to worry about territorial/political influence. Those were perks (and concerns) of a foregone era. This Pope's focus in spirituality, poverty, equality, etc, is a luxury Pius XI apparently couldn't afford.

Things have changed but ultimately the both are/were just men. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Now for those of you just joining in - here is a repeat of what to do on all single thread discussions. Remember folks are following you and if you get ahead they do not want to read your spoilers as brilliant and scintillating as your comments are (lol).

So place the chapter and page number in bold but at least the Chapter number. For example this week we are reading chapter 10 and chapter 11.

Chapter 10 - page 136 (just a made up example)

(view spoiler)[ This is where you place your thoughts, ideas, comments, questions, remarks (hide spoiler)]