THE POPE AND MUSSOLINI - THE SECRET HISTORY OF PIUS XI AND THE RISE OF FASCISM IN EUROPE

[Helga]

Bentley wrote: "Michele that is a possibility - there were a lot of strange things going on."


[spoilers removed]"There were 31 Italians and they made the majority and it only with strong Italian support could anyone be elected. Most of the popes until recently were always Italian.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Helga - look at messages 2 and 3 and that will help you with your spoilers which do not seem to be working right.

Generally speaking - what you posted is not really a spoiler anyway.

But you make a good point. However, sometimes when folks are all in the room - things turn out differently.

You may want to do something with message 51 - looks a bit odd with the html not working.

[Helga]

Okay. Got it. Thanks.

[Teri]

Hello everyone! I am reading as well and working through the first chapter now. Thanks, Bentley, for posting all of the great side material. I was just thinking that I needed to brush up on my Fascist details when I came across that post (msg 50).

Prologue
(view spoiler)[Question 2. I kind of wonder why Pope Pius XI didn't get his speech out earlier, if he realized his health was quickly declining. I understand there is protocol (assuming) to physically giving the speech and the date couldn't have been moved up. But once he gave the order/request to print the speech why didn't it get dispersed sooner? Likely, they had just been finished on the 9th or 10th when he was completely bedridden. So my point here is that I assume Cardinal Pacelli took advantage of the situation and kept the documents from being dispersed and upon Mussolini's order, destroyed them. So I am curious to find out more about Pacelli's relationship with Pope Pius XI and with Mussolini and what his true motives might have been. I want to thank he was loyal to Pope Pius XI but that he had concerns with Mussolini and felt it was not yet time to spoil that relationship. Likely never planning on letting the speeches be sent out. (hide spoiler)]

I'm excited to read this book and can tell already that it will be thorough, yet engaging. It grabbed me from the beginning.

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Hello everyone! I am reading as well and working through the first chapter now. Thanks, Bentley, for posting all of the great side material. I was just thinking that I needed to brush up on my F..."

Good points. I have the same question. I think this is a good book so far and am excited to be reading it. Thanks Bentley for all extra material to read as well.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Prologue - response to Teri

(view spoiler)[I am assuming that Cardinal Pacelli is the one that became Pope Pius XI's successor as Pope Pius XII. That makes it even more intriguing and I do not want to use the word suspicious - but it raises eyebrows for sure. Also too remember that the Pacelli family had a lot to do with smoothing things over with Mussolini and bringing about the Lateran Accords. His family were historically top Vatican lawyers and Cardinal Pacelli's older brother was contacted on behalf of Pope Pius XI in 1926 to conduct secret negotiations with the Fascist government to end hostilities between the Holy See and Italy since its founding in 1861. So one has to wonder as you did why did Cardinal Pacelli - still then a Cardinal - not obey his boss's wishes - Pope Pius XI - unless he was advised otherwise by the lawyers (probably his family) or other Vatican personnel to do otherwise - did he know that he might be Pope or was he warned of dire consequences if he did follow through as requested by Pope Pius XI - you have to wonder what the motivation was - it could have been to simply protect the church since the Pope had died before delivering his documents. Was the Cardinal following Mussolini's orders, his own, his family's, other Vatican officials - I too would love to know what actually happened. Maybe when Pope Francis releases these papers we will find out about this too. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Hello everyone! I am reading as well and working through the first chapter now. Thanks, Bentley, for posting all of the great side material. I was just thinking that I needed to bru..."

You are welcome Helga

[Michele]

On Fascism:

Quoting political theorist, Robert Griffin (from his book, The Nature of Fascism) "a genus of political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultranationalism". Griffin describes the ideology as having three core components: "(i) the rebirth myth, (ii) populist ultra-nationalism and (iii) the myth of decadence"

Now, political scientist, Robert Paxton (from his book, The Anatomy of Fascism) says: "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

Mythic... Fascism co-ops religion, in a way, in order to bind people together. Hitler did it, on his own. Mussolini used the Roman Catholic Church. Which he could not have done without the Pope and the autocratic nature of the church.

by Robert O. Paxton (no photo)

by Roger Griffin (no photo)

[Fausto]

Great input. Thanks Michelle!
I really liked Robert Paxton's definition.

by Robert O. Paxton

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Rules and Guidelines - they are pretty simple

Michele first remember that we do not have to do citations of the book we are reading or the author we are discussing on this discussion thread but when you cite another book or author - then we must do citations.

Fausto - since you mentioned the author in your post you must do the author's citation.

Michele - please add this to the bottom on your comment box 58:

by Roger Griffin (no photo)

And also add -

by Robert O. Paxton (no photo)

Fausto - please add this to the bottom of your message 59 - since you only mentioned the author

Robert O. Paxton (no photo)

For those of you wondering how to participate in buddy reads - just read message 2, 3, 15 and 16 and that will give you the rules for spoiler html and how to do it, the table of contents and the syllabus and message 16 explains our expectations on citations for buddy reads and how we have made it easier for all of you.

This is message 16:

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Michele regarding Fascism and your note in 58 which I do not consider a spoiler since it is really discussing something that is not part of thematic development of the book but one of the isms - let me respond this way.

Most scholars do not see Fascism in the same light as Nazism - it does not have the race component nor were the Italians that efficient. The Nazis would not have made the deal with the Catholic Church that Mussolini did.

Nazism arose from pan-Germanism, the Völkisch German nationalist movement and the anti-communist Freikorps after World War I.

Italian Fascism produced a less effective, less repressive, and, hence less socially destructive "new order" than did Nazism. At the most inconsequential level, the Fascists tolerated jokes about the regime which the Nazis did not. In Italy, the Catholic Church played an institutional role which forced some accommodation by the new regime. More important, the Italians never generated a spirit of racism such as that which was profoundly important in the ideology and practices of Nazi Germany. Finally, the Italian army never enjoyed the unique position nor gained the reputation for efficiency that the German army had in modern history. Add to these social differences the industrial capacity of the German state, the effectiveness of its bureaucracy, and the sense of national frustration over defeat in the world war, and the differences in the real power and the public attitudes existing in both countries are discernible.

Yet Hitler had stated that Mussolini was his model, his early political idol. Mussolini enjoyed this dubious honor because he was the first individual to make dictatorship successful in a modern, large-scale European state. Taking advantage of the parliamentary crises that had disturbed Italy in the immediate postwar era, crises brought on by disappointment over the Italian war effort, and by labor strikes, war scandals, and a multiparty system that could find no clear majority by which to govern effectively, Mussolini "marched on Rome" in 1922. (He actually took a night sleeper from Milan.) The Fascists, organized as a political party but active in street fighting, now threatened to overthrow the regime by force. Rather than risk this, the political leadership in Rome gave in; the king, Victor Emmanuel II, invited Mussolini to be prime minister and to form his own government.

Source: BRITANNIA
America's Gateway to the British Isles since 1996

(no image) Europe in Retrospect: A Brief History of the Past Two Hundred Years by Raymond Frederick Betts (no photo)

Note: 80% of Italian Jews escaped arrest when the Germans invaded Italy because the Italian Jews were assisted by Italians.

There were about 50,000 Jews resident in Italy in the 1930s; they were disproportionately middle class; disproportionately involved in academic life and also more likely than the rest of the Italian population to be members of the Italian Fascist Party. Theories of so-called scientific racism did not attract wide support in Italy and when they did they were usually expressed in irrational prejudices against Africans and Arabs rather than against Jews.

I would suggest looking at the breakdown of the tabulated differenced between the two ideologies in this paper:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com...

Source: http://www.earlhamsociologypages.co.u....

Prologue and Chapter One (this response may be particular to this week's reading hence it is contained in spoiler html)

(view spoiler)[Note: I see your point but I think Mussolini needed the Catholic Church - the two things important to Italians and is in their DNA are the family and the Catholic Church. The Black Shirts may have been thugs on the streets but they were not that away at home or around their family or Mother or Grandparents. I think Mussolini needed this arrangement as much as the Catholic Church wanted to come out of confinement - they both needed the Lateran Accord and they both benefited. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

Prologue Question 3. I have to say I am ashamed by how little I know of the history of Italy: the Romans, The Venetians, and post WW2. That's it. Reading the prologue and chapter one has made the gap in my knowledge more pronounced. Very interesting. Thanks, Bentley for the additional info!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You are very welcome and your response of course did not have any spoilers in it so you were fine.

You do not have to be ashamed at all - we are all reading together and each book is a new opportunity for learning. I personally learn something new with every book I read and love that aspect of reading and discussing books with all of you.

[Michele]

Bentley wrote: "Rules and Guidelines - they are pretty simple

Michele first remember that we do not have to do citations of the book we are reading or the author we are discussing on this discussion thread but wh..."

I did cite them, but in the old fashioned way! LOL Thanks for pointing out that I need to do it differently.

I am aware that there are differences in Nazism and Italian Fascism, but there are enough similarities, for me, to throw both under a general Fascism umbrella. I will note that the Nazis were far more anti-semitic than the Italians were, at least initially.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Prologue and Chapter One

(view spoiler)[Very good Michelle - when there is no author's photo - just place (no photo) at the end - no problem that is what we are here for but I was glad to see your post and read what it had to say. It is great that you attempted the updates and they are very close indeed. Just add the (no photo) at the end of them and you are pitch perfect as usual.

I hear you and there are a lot of folks who do see the similarities more than the differences but there were major differences - I do not think that the Italians were anti semitic at all. When the Germans came into Italy - even then the Italians were hiding the Jewish Italians. I do not think that the Italians had the makeup to even be involved in anything like what the Nazis executed with utter contempt - they treated the Jewish people as if they were sub human. A lot of the Fascist Party included Italian Jews at the beginning. Once Hitler came into Italy - it was the Germans who had the upper hand and not Mussolini so then he did not have much of a choice. But even then over 80% of the Italian Jews were not arrested. Somebody was saving them and hiding them and those people were the Italians.

To me it was a major difference. (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Bentley wrote: "Topics for Discussion: - Fascism, Mussolini, Nationalism

Sal Khan on Khan Academy has a few learning videos which are short and quite informative about Benito Mussolini and Fascism and I would adv..."

Is that a dog sitting in the axe and why? :-)

[Leslie]

Bentley wrote: "Topics for Discussion - The state of Italy, Socialists and Fascists, the two Popes

Generally speaking - Italy was having a rough time when Pope Pius XI died and Pope Pius XII was elected (I cannot..."

(view spoiler)[As someone in health care, I found it funny that those opposed to the Fascists had castor oil poured down their throats. It is toxic ingested orally but, especially among elderly Americans, there is a false belief that it is a safe and effective remedy for "cleaning out" the digestive tract. I can't tell you how many people I've tried to talk out of buying and drinking this. You wouldn't believe how belligerent people can get if you even suggest that this product is not healthy taken this way, yet the Fascists knew. LOL. (hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Leslie wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Topics for Discussion: - Fascism, Mussolini, Nationalism

Sal Khan on Khan Academy has a few learning videos which are short and quite informative about Benito Mussolini and Fascism..."

Perhaps it's the Capitoline Wolf, another popular symbol for them.

[Glynn]

I started this book a couple of days ago. I am excited about it. I know nothing about this stuff and this author seems to have an excellent way with words. Only wish I could participate more in this discussion but all the "spoilers" are helping me muddle through! Thanks :)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Leslie wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Topics for Discussion - The state of Italy, Socialists and Fascists, the two Popes

Generally speaking - Italy was having a rough time when Pope Pius XI died and Pope Pius XII was e..."

Leslie, could you go back and put spoiler html around your response in 67.

Message 2 and message 3 indicate how to do that. This is a discussion on a single thread so when we discuss any elements in the book that we are reading we place the section at the top in bold and if we have the page number we add that.

Then underneath what we type into the comment box is put in spoiler html - just the way you would do bolding or underlining but instead place the word spoiler in that html.

We try not to spoil things for folks who are reading the book who may not be where you happen to be in the reading.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Hello Glynn - I am glad that you are enjoying the book - buddy reads, book of the month reads are all on single threads - therefore the only way we have of not having spoilers is to use the spoiler html. When we have the spotlighted reads like the Raj Quartet and other books like that - we have weekly non spoiler threads which indicate what pages should be discussed on what thread - and therefore we do not need the html.

I am glad that the discussions are helping you get through.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Leslie - you have keen vision:

Prologue, Chapter One, Fascism (Mussolini)

(view spoiler)[I believe in the Italian Fascist version of the Fasces that what you are seeing is the Capitoline Wolf. It was one of Mussolini's favorites.

"The image was favored by Benito Mussolini, who cast himself as the founder of the "New Rome". To encourage American goodwill, he sent several copies of the Capitoline Wolf to U.S. cities. In 1929 he sent one replica for a Sons of Italy national convention in Cincinnati, Ohio. It was switched for another one in 1931, which still stands in Eden Park, Cincinnati.

Another replica was given by Mussolini to the city of Rome, Georgia, the same year.

A third copy went to Rome, New York. Another ended up at North-Eastern Normal University, China, where ancient Greek and Roman history is studied.
The Capitoline Wolf was used on both the emblem and the poster for the 1960 Summer Olympics in Rome. The Roman football club A.S. Roma uses it in its emblem as well.

The programme of conservation undertaken in the 1990s resulted in an exhibition devoted to the Lupa Capitolina and her iconography.

In the 2009 movie Agora, set in 5th-century Alexandria, the Capitoline Wolf—complete with the del Pollaiolo twins—can be seen in the prefect's palace. This is visible in the scene before Hypatia's capture, directly behind her character.

In Rick Riordan's The Son of Neptune, Lupa is the wolf that trains all demigods who wish to enter Camp Jupiter. She trains Percy Jackson and is mentioned that she trained Jason Grace also.

The Boston Latin School uses an image on the cover of their agenda book as well as being the official school emblem.

The Capitoline Wolf is used in Romania and Moldova as a symbol of the Latin origin of its inhabitants and in some major cities there are replicas of the original statue given as a gift from Italy at the beginning of the 20th century."

Source: Wikipedia

You can see it in the Fascist Flag:


Fascist Symbolism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist...

Source: Wikipedia

by Rick Riordan


(hide spoiler)]

[Leslie]

Bentley wrote: "Leslie wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Topics for Discussion - The state of Italy, Socialists and Fascists, the two Popes

Generally speaking - Italy was having a rough time when Pope Pius XI died and Pope..."

I didn't do the spoiler on that because you have it in your public comments, message 49.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes Khan is public - I think I felt one of your posts blended into the book.

Thanks for noting it -

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Here is some Italian fun - not a spoiler but if you like pizza - here is some Italian Food History

HUNGRY HISTORY™

Watch the video and read about the history of pizza - and he shows you how to make your own

Source: History.com
http://www.history.com/news/hungry-hi...

[Leslie]

You're welcome, although I don't see how. One was about health care and the other about the Roman symbol not mentioned in the book.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response:

(view spoiler)[The castor oil (smile) (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Leslie these are not our guidelines and we ask that you follow them while you are here - other groups may require other things. Our guidelines are not optional. We are here to help.

[Glynn]

Bentley wrote: "Here is some Italian fun - not a spoiler but if you like pizza - here is some Italian Food History

HUNGRY HISTORY™

Watch the video and read about the history of pizza - and he shows you how to ma..."

Nice. I moved from Long Island to Florida last year. I REALLY MISS actual Pizza!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Glynn I thought that was a fun post - and he blended the history in while he was doing a great job of showing us how he made the crust and a wonderful looking Margherita pizza - it was fun learning the history behind that type of pizza and the colors of the Italian flag being used in making that pizza for the queen.

[G]

Chapter One A while ago, the HBC read by Thomas Harding (view spoiler)[ One of the points the author made in Hanns and Rudolf was that Rudolf Hoess was disenfranchised after WW1 and the camaraderie (for want of a better word) was what brought him to Nazism. We see the same thing here, with Mussolini feeling disenfranchised but because of his ego, he brought the Blackshirts, who were also alienated from society and angry, into an organized group. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Excellent point G

[Michele]

Finished Chapter 2

(view spoiler)[Interesting to read about Mussolini's rise to power. He started with socialism only to get booted out and turn against socialism. The fascists were brutal, using beatings, bombings and killing people, to get political power. (hide spoiler)]

[Glynn]

Michele wrote: "Finished Chapter 3"

I finished chap 3 also. (view spoiler)[It is ironic how Mussolini went from one extreme to what I thought was the opposite extreme, but I learned from the Khan lectures that Fascism isn't what I thought it was. I liked that the Pope was a book person. From page 42 it said "One of the few personal touches ...was a book stand, where he always kept one of his favorite books." (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Michele - you are ahead of us but thank you for using spoiler html and your post

(view spoiler)[Michele you are correct - but not in the same vein as the Nazis (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Glynn

(view spoiler)[Glynn an excellent point. I did too. That is why I added the Khan lectures to succinctly cover a lot of ground so that folks had a foundation in terms of reading the book and got that foundation and timeline quickly. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

All - this week September 7th we begin this segment of the book

2. The March on Rome 19 - Week of September 7, 2015 - WEEK TWO

3. The Fatal Embrace 39 - Week of September 7, 2015 - WEEK TWO

Assignment - Read the above/discuss and post - pages 19 - 56. I look forward to reading your posts.

[LRB]

Finished chapter 7 (but no spoiler).

In short, I'm enjoying what is Kertzer's accessible and mesmerizing writing style while being continually bummed about the corruption that tainted the Vatican at the time. As a Catholic, I certainly think it is worthwhile to explicate Pius XI's deplorable record relationship with the fascist government, but (as with anything) it sucks to have your weaknesses pointed out.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Danielle I agree. Hope you circle back to keep up with us and the discussion.

One thing that amazed me was how short King Victor Emmanuel III was.



Another one:

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Or this one:

[Helga]

I also think it is worthwhile to explicate Pius XI record with the Fascist government.
(view spoiler)[And I learned more on why he did so explained on chapter 2 page 29 which stated that the country was in tumult, the government was paralyzed, the police and military were sympathizers for the fascists. The fascists attacked local Catholic clubs, priests and everything clerical. Pius XI feared that if he opposed the Fascists, that Mussolini might unleash a reign of terror against the church. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Helga

(view spoiler)[Yes, I think there are always two sides to each story - therefore I was very interested in reading this account but also others. I feel better that Pius XI was willing to take a stand even if it ended up being too late for his being able to do so. I think the puzzling individual was Cardinal Pacelli who became Pope Pius XII. I certainly want to read more and you have raised a very interesting point Helga. There is little doubt that this would have occurred. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

I was also amazed how short King Victor Emmanuel III was. I can personally understand the ridicule from people that he received and the insecurity he felt. I am under 5 feet and was ridiculed growing up.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I am sorry to hear that - but I think in a man's case and especially someone who is King - it must have been horrendous.

[Helga]

Bentley wrote: "Response to Helga

[spoilers removed]" I agree with your response totally.

(view spoiler)[ I think Cardinal Pacelli who later became Pope Pius XII was puzzling and controversial. For much of the war he maintained a front of indifference and remained silent during the German atrocities. Publically, he refused pleas for help but privately, he encouraged helping Jews. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

I feel your pain, Helga! :-) It's horrendous to anyone to be bullied. For King Victor Emmanuel III it was just more publicly noticeable.

Helga wrote: "I was also amazed how short King Victor Emmanuel III was. I can personally understand the ridicule from people that he received and the insecurity he felt. I am under 5 feet and was ridiculed growi..."

[Helga]

Bentley wrote: "I am sorry to hear that - but I think in a man's case and especially someone who is King - it must have been horrendous."
Very much so.

[Teri]

Chapter Two

(view spoiler)[I found this chapter very enlightening. I know very little of Mussolini prior to reading this. He was such a scalawag! I lost count as to how many affairs/women/children he had! I also found it interesting that he was suspected of having syphilis and it was assumed that it contributed to his supposed dementia, but upon testing during his autopsy, he didn't have syphilis. I'll be interested in his character as we go through the book. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I agree Teri. Helga I think we are on the same page about Pacelli.

[Monica]

Helga wrote: "I was also amazed how short King Victor Emmanuel III was. I can personally understand the ridicule from people that he received and the insecurity he felt. I am under 5 feet and was ridiculed growi..."

Appearance matters in high context cultures, like Italy, especially when it is combined with power. I am exactly 5 feet tall (short?) but it never seemed to be an issue. I agree, it is more of a problem for men, think Napoleon.