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Why I won't beta read again !
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I've also had a lot of luck trading manuscripts with other authors. Yesterday I got some incredible feedback, for which I'm very grateful. As a side benefit, I also get to read another author's manuscript (in this case a delightful story!), contrast my style with his, and watch how his story shapes itself. For me it is a win-win.
P.S. Chris also gave me great help. Now, we both have to get to work! LOL Good luck!!!
Chris, that's too bad, and out of place. You are making a favor. Whether they use your advice or not, please and thanks are still the magic words.I am pretty much "the Axe lady" when beta reading. My main scope is inner coherence. People I swap beta-reading with know this in advance and welcome it--or get lost.
Funny enough, I would love to see someone doing that kind of job for me. I know there is a problem with my secondary arcs, but still couldn't completely figure it out.
Oh well...
I might do it again when I have lots of free time. But the main thing that stopped me is how much damn work beta-reading is. Like when I have done it for friends before we already chat about books a lot and very much have our own language for discussing problems.I guess the problem is that it takes 10 times longer to beta read a work then to just read it. Often because I'm struggling to explain exactly what I find wrong. In the 3 I beta-read, I didn't finish any of them. One of them was pretty good/almost ready to go, just I felt it needed to be marketed towards the Middle Grade crowd, when I don't think the author was aiming for that originally. Another was written like a science report, and was dry along with not really being what I requested. The last was hard because it was in that state where the author is making progress and getting better, but it failed to hook, the prose failed to be dense enough, it wasn't really bad but it was just kind of meh. Which meant that it was a lot of effort on trying to explain what I believed was going wrong in the book, and why the stuff that was working was working well.
Yeah, I guess it's a different experience for everyone, but I'm sure that when my novels are ready, they will be better for the feedback I've received from my beta readers. I hope that the authors I've beta read for can say the same, because I definitely give it my best and, so far, I've been really happy about the stories that I've read. (I am aware that my feedback doesn't always come off as positive, but I want you all to be as successful as possible and that doesn't mean stroking your ego. You should know by now you are good enough.)We all have a wide variety of perspectives, but you only see how diverse readers are by asking for other eyes to review your work. While you can never make everyone happy and should absolutely not write to please everyone (!!!), it behooves us to listen to what our readers are saying; otherwise, what's the point?
My advice to authors wanting beta feedback is to *trade* with other authors. Not only is it fairer - because with rare exceptions everyone here has plenty to read! - but it also will improve your craft.
Michael wrote: "Yeah, I guess it's a different experience for everyone, but I'm sure that when my novels are ready, they will be better for the feedback I've received from my beta readers. I hope that the authors ..."Trading is not always feasible. Right now I've got four books I'm writing, five either ready for an edit or back from editing and needing work, and two being Beta'd. There are another six awaiting rewrites utilising the feedback so far.
My own fault for writing too much before getting feedback, but I simply haven't time to read for a year or so.
Aaron wrote: "I might do it again when I have lots of free time. But the main thing that stopped me is how much damn work beta-reading is. Like when I have done it for friends before we already chat about book..."Aaron, if you ever want to go for it, I would love your take in any of my fantasy books. I beta-read for you, if you have something in that stage.
Sandra wrote: "Aaron wrote: "I might do it again when I have lots of free time. But the main thing that stopped me is how much damn work beta-reading is. Like when I have done it for friends before we already c..."I'd be willing to try to beta read for you (since you seem to be honest and direct and want that back). I've also found that beta reading is work and takes time and mental effort on my part and then when authors basically critique my beta reading I really won't be reading for them again (and I'm now basically trying to find semi-decent (which is harder than one might think) authors who want beta readers -- basically trying to find long-term relationships to work with authors). If you're interested, send me a MS in Word (or something I can cut and paste) to linda.elmer@yahoo.com
Thanks -
Another thing I learned is that I didn't really know how to beta read, so trading helped there too. I know everyone has a different style, but I was very impressed by one of my beta readers. He gave me a chapter-by-chapter breakdown of how my book evolved in his mind along with a summary with his feelings at the end, and (of course) inevitable mark ups when I screw up the narration and dialog. I could actually see how the plot came alive and learn where I erred. I also saw where I was able to surprise. The beta feedback that I give from now one will definitely improve.
Linda wrote: "Sandra wrote: "Aaron wrote: "I might do it again when I have lots of free time. But the main thing that stopped me is how much damn work beta-reading is. Like when I have done it for friends befo..."Oh, that's great, Linda! Thanks soo much!
Bravo, Jen!As an author, I love while-reading feedback. No need to wait for four whole chapters. No need to digest and put in context. (Not that a little putting in context is a bad thing, just that it's not the only thing.)
Booksmaketheworldbetter wrote: "I completely understand, I haven't been doing this long and I spent 4 days working on editing a not well developed story and the author decided to question my age and say she did't think that I fit..."Sounds like she should have considered those issues before she passed the draft to you. If age and experience of the beta were deal breakers for her, she should have said "thanks but no thanks" and you could have been reading something else!
I think that a lot of artists (writers, painters, filmmakers, etc.) are always going to be subject to criticism whether they ask for it or not. But when you specifically seek out a beta reader/critique partner, why get defensive? If they are just saying "um...yeah, I think this story sucks" and doesn't actually have any feedback that would help you improve it, then I can see getting upset about it. But also, I would just find it humorous. I tried sending my first few chapters to someone the other day, and when she sent me all her comments and suggestions, of course my pride was a little shot, because before her, only one or two things were pointed out, but overall my FRIENDS thought it was interesting. I think that is the problem with writers (just like some of the people who audition for American Idol), they were so used to people telling them how great their work is, and when they give it to an unbiased avid reader/writer, they get a page full of notes that they were not expecting. Still, as much time as they spent reading your work and writing their thoughts, you should say thank you even if it is not what you want to hear. Unless it was something you specifically asked not to hear... But after my CP sent back all the notes, and my initial hurt feelings subsided, I definitely was thankful. There were a lot of unrealistic dialogue and actions, and now I am able to change those things which will later improve the story as a whole.
Criticism sucks. It hurts. But you have to listen carefully. And be prepared to do some more work.
Monz, I think you nailed it. Glad to hear you overcame feeling negative and moved to learn from what your BR had to say.
Hello Chris, I am so sorry to hear that you have withdrawn the opportunity for authors have you beta read their work. Don't they get just how valuable beta readers like you are?! When I ask someone to read my stuff, I don't want to hear how good it is. I want to hear what needs doing to get my work as close to excellent as possible. Its a sad day.
Hello Jacqueline. I am so sorry you feel discouraged but I am sure there are hundreds of people willing to read someone's work out there. By the way, I just had another experience which confirmed BR is not for me.
I received a private message by someone asking me to BR his/her novel because he/she saw this post and thought I could do a good "honest" read of his/her work. He/She also included a "query letter" that I thought was unnecessary detailed and long. I answered this:
Hello XXXX,
Sorry not to return this note earlier.
As I explained on my post, I am taking a break from beta reading. This year and last I spent my share of time doing it and right now I feel I need to put more time on writing and reading published books to improve my own writing. Hope you understand.
With regards to the query letter, I think you need to step back and re-do it. Something that helps a lot when doing a slug of one's book is to go into IMDB and get a sense on how movies are summarized. It should not take more than 3-4 lines and should stick to the basis.
Even if you are self-publishing you need a strong /concise slugline to catch readers.
Hope that helped,
Best,
This was his /her answer:
Hey Chris,
Thanks for responding. I'll disagree with the implication you made that unpublished books wouldn't help you with your own writing. Books that are waiting to be published can be just as good as books that already are published!
I appreciate your unsolicited advice on my query letter. I can't help but notice a bit of a snarky tone in your message. I remember you posting on the discussion boards about how many of the people you beta read for weren't happy with what you told them. If your tone when working with them was the same as it was in the message you sent to me, maybe that's what was causing the problem? Your tone is uniquely off-putting and condescending, in a way that I haven't seen from anyone else I've communicated with on here.
Hope that helped,
XXXX
I don't want to get into the argument whether reading beta can improve your writing or not (I actually think it can because you often identify the same mistakes you are making in other people's writing - simply because we read our own work so much that it's easy to look past the issues we easily see in other stories), however there isn't time enough in a life to read all the books that I want to read that are published, and I am sure that's the same with Chris.Also, I just want to put in here that Chris gave me great feedback on the beta read he did for me, for which I'm grateful. And I support him 1000% in taking a break. Do it, man! LOL
One part of writing / being an author and putting your work out into the world is the certain knowledge that not all readers will like everything you may write about. As well, I've never met anyone who had a perfect first draft with zero errors, typos, or parts to improve.I've had alpha-readers see the rough version, who gave me decent feedback about what they did and didn't like. Once I took care of stuff I knew were problems, since the alphas had the unedited work, I've had betas who gave me decent feedback about what they did and didn't like.
For every one writer who doesn't take critique well, there are many others who accept critique for what it is; a way to improve.
It's kind of like a printed copy of a mostly unedited manuscript I had made for the Wife. A neighbor was interested in reading it so I handed it over. Eight months later (when we were moving) the neighbor offered the copy back, which had me asking "What did you think of it?"
Neighbor: "Well, there were some typos..."
Me: "As I said before, that's pretty much the book as written, without any major editing. Apart from typos, what did you think?"
Neighbor: "It was interesting -- I liked it."
In short the person wasn't doing a beta-read per se and there was neither obligation nor expectation for any in-depth feedback, which is fine since I'm steadily slogging through the editing (when the little demon is napping).
**Disclaimer**
As a rule I have two types of friends, reader-writers and everyone else. When it comes to family, I don't expect or really want any of them to read my work, due to the small subset of my relatives who take delight from crapping on the aspirations of others. I think if anyone were to tell me I was a great writer I wouldn't believe it. I'll settle for competent.
I have come to this forum to recruit beta readers for years. No one wants to hear that their baby is ugly, but they need to hear it. What new authors need to understand is this forum is unique. Where else can you find people willing to read your work in the raw and provide honest feedback for free? People who don't know you, and aren't familiar with your writing?The volunteer beta readers here are invaluable because they are READERS. They are representative of people who may buy your book, who may recommend it to their friends and reading circle.
Sure, they may give you feedback you don't want to hear. Better now than in a review posted on Amazon. In the best cases, I have engaged in discussions with my betas and they have re-read my revisions, sometimes through multiple revisions. If one doesn't have thousands of dollars to spend on an experienced developmental editor, you'd better figure out how to work with beta readers.
I always cite my betas in the Acknowledgement section of the book and send them a final copy when it's published.
My works, however flawed, are better for the input I've received from my betas.
Hi. Can anyone Beta read for me please? Romance/NA. Hope you don't mind me asking. Chris Haigh
Don't be bashful, Chris. Read what? Novel? How long?And a sentence or two (think Hemingway, not Faulkner) re your creation would help a potential reader decide.
Would be best to post as a new discussion with enough particulars in the title so a potential reader can decide to learn more or to skip it.
Martin wrote: "Don't be bashful, Chris. Read what? Novel? How long?And a sentence or two (think Hemingway, not Faulkner) re your creation would help a potential reader decide.
Would be best to post as a new di..."
Thanks Martin. I've taken your advice and posted a new thread 'Romance Book Needs Betas'.
Beta readers are a blessing from the god of books. How on earth are we to get any idea of what reaction our books will get without them? Fair enough, it stings when they trample your baby, but if the beta says why, then take off the blinkers and get back to some editing.
I have found that having more than one beta is a big help since beta readers are human, and so have different 'takes'. Though even if they dislike the storyline subject, I have found beta readers to be fair in assessing it as a book.
Also, in all fairness, a book should be at least lightly edited before some unsuspecting soul is expected to read it. Otherwise our writing sins will get in the way of the story. Be fair to your beta. Cherish them, and listen.
Kelvin wrote: "Some of the problems stem from the author and beta reader not having a clear idea of what the author wants a beta reader to do. I tell the beta reader up front: I want you to provide feedback on th..."I think this is well put, Kelvin. I also wonder about the use of "edit" for the task of beta-reading (this was used in an earlier post). If I tell a reader I want them to give me an overall advance read of the book that has been through edits and revisions already I'm not looking for someone to edit my text or tell me to make word choice edits, for instance.
Ubiquitous wrote: "It seems to me that it's important to come to an understanding at the outset of the relationship. Ask those questions about back patting, sugar coating, truth telling, and brutal honesty. Discuss e..."The distinctions between beta reading, proofreading, editing, and developmental editing are important. As you note, too, constructive criticism is more than "I hated the characters" or "I didn't get X" or "there's an error on every page" (especially if no patterns of errors are noted).
To me, a beta read should be something that ends with a concise bit of feedback about the overall structure and plot. If the author wants further details or more in-depth help with things like proofreading or basic development, beta readers aren't really who they should turn to.
If you are asking for help, take what help is given with gratitude. If you don't think you need to make changes, why ask for help in the first place? If you can't look at your art objectively, perhaps you need to work on that in addition to your vocabulary and spelling.
I need a beta reader and I hate to see one lose hope because people have too much ego and not enough talent.
I need a beta reader and I hate to see one lose hope because people have too much ego and not enough talent.
It's not about ego or talent. It's about realizing the role of a beta reader and being willing to give feedback that is genre appropriate and that is actual beta feedback. Beta reading is not line editing, nor is it proofreading. Those are different tasks.
I have learned that if someone says they want a "general opinion" of their novel then it means they want to hear "It's great, except this and that." But if I, after having struggled with simply bad writing (say is grammar or structure or whatnot) decide to stop, it would be very difficult to do so without pointing exactly at those issues.
My advice would be to put the rules from the start. If someone is not open to suggestions, just "general opinion" I am not onboard to help. But that's me. There may be ppl who are exactly the opposite.
Chris wrote: "I have learned that if someone says they want a "general opinion" of their novel then it means they want to hear "It's great, except this and that." But if I, after having struggled with simply b..."
I applaud you for being willing to contact the writer and tell them the beta read situation isn't for you and to stop at that point. It's to your credit that you take the time to discuss the expectations of the author and whether those fit the services/feedback you wish to offer.
Beta reading and editing are two different tasks. Anyone expecting an unknown beta reader to edit their work (and for free) is not realistic (or advisable).
There's also a difference between simply saying "this is poorly written" and pointing to actual patterns of error. In my writing courses I certainly don't allow students to simply tell peers they are reviewing that they did "a great job" or that "the paper is bad."
I would expect beta readers to take their role seriously, as well. It sounds as if you do, which is awesome.
Interesting conversation. As one who depends on Beta Readers, I'm saddened when we lose one. But when I personally ask someone to Beta for me, I always tell them please read the first 50 pages. If you don't like what you read, stop. You don't have to finish the book. If you can let me know why you stopped then that would be helpful.Authors need to be respectful of the time of a Beta Reader. I try to be that. But I have Beta Reader friends now, because I've been at this for a second, and they've let me know how rude about 20% of the authors they run into are. It's one of the reasons why I think all Beta Readers should test a "sample" just like many editors and agents do.
If the first 50 pages are bad, then its an easy guess that the book is bad. If the author doesn't want to do a sample reading, it's a pretty good indicator that they are difficult to work with.
Taylor wrote: "Once I sent him the list of spots asking why they seemingly randomly triggered the breakdown he claimed artistic freedom and that my questions were invalid and went as far as negating all my other comments and suggestions saying they were important and that I didnt understand why they were...."I wonder if sometimes the response from the author could be the manner in which the beta reader responds. In your case, Taylor, I notice that your response was posed as a question. Let's say that question was something along the lines of "Why did the character breakdown when that happened?" Since it is impossible to judge the tone of a question in written text, could it be that the author infers a tone that suggests something more negatively critical... like the question really is asking something like, "What were you thinking?!" or "Are you really that clueless to not pay attention to your own character development?!"
Instead, perhaps responses made to authors should be in the form of statements, such as "I noticed that the character breaks down when X happens. I only expected breakdowns during Y, so maybe I missed how you were trying to develop the character." This type of statement tells the author that you see an inconsistency without attributing any blame to her.
My wife just finished a first read of a recently completed draft just yesterday, and when she said something like, "I think what the character is trying to say/do is this...", I would respond, "Well, that's not how I view the character, so clearly, I need to develop that person better to explain his/her position."
Chris, I'm sorry to hear about your experience. I say if a writer isn't ready to hear negative feedback, they're not ready to have a beta reader. In fact, I'd say they're not ready to publish at all. All books are going to have negative feedback at some point.I LOVE when beta readers point out inconsistencies! It's hard sometimes when you're deep in the novel to remember that character x was wearing a green t-shirt on page such and such then is wearing a black t-shirt later on.
And I agree that writers should be clear in their expectations. A beta reader is not an editor, and writers should not expect such a thing. A beta reader is a reader; they're there to tell you their opinions of the story from a reader's perspective. I want to know if they don't like a character, and why. That doesn't mean I need to totally rewrite the book--it's one person's opinion. But if I have several readers commenting on the same thing, that's a sign that there's work to be done.
If a beta reader offers editorial advice, to me that's just an added bonus. I even reject some of my publishing house's editors suggestions, depending on my own style. Writers don't need to be defensive, ever.
And I agree with J.L. If it's a DNF (did not finish), why, and when would be great to know.
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Mary's definition of a beta reader is something that's great for people on both sides of the fence to keep in mind. I perform part-time editing work, which is indeed work, but when I beta read I consider myself nothing more than a reader, simulating a paying customer. It's enjoyable because I don't have to look for every little flaw.
As such, I try to tell the author what I would comment on, either good or bad, if I were writing a comprehensive review of their book. If they choose not to take that well, I simply move on to the next book. If they appreciate it, I feel good for helping them. Either way I gain insight on ways to improve my own writing.
From an author's perspective, I LOVE beta readers who say more than "It was good. I liked it." I'm well aware that I have a tendency to get so busy concentrating on what I *want* to say in a manuscript that it doesn't always come out that way. I appreciate how the betas and editors allow me to see my work from new perspectives. The good points they bring up tell me that I'm growing as a writer, and the bad allows me to fix mistakes so I have less of a chance of disappointing my customers.
Authors need to remember that few, if any, beta readers are here just to bash us. *Most* of them are trying to help (though I suspect a few just want free books) and they deserve our gratitude whether we agree with them or not. And beta readers need to remember that some authors might not be as ready to hear the truth as they think they are, while others are really hoping you'll give them something to work with.
It's a gamble of sorts, for both parties, but I think there are more gems in this group than there are rock salt chips.