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The Iliad: Background Info and Resources
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Mar 02, 2014 12:10PM
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The Bernard Knox introduction to the Fagles translation is worth reading, if you can get it from the library, even if you're not reading that translation. There are dozens and dozens of works about the Iliad. I can only mention a few that I have actually used at one time or another. This doesn't at all mean that they're the best, and my mentioning them isn't a recommendation to go out and get them, but if you have access to a library that has them, these comments might be useful.
There are two resources specifically aimed at reading the Lattimore translation, though they can be useful with other translations. Malcolm Willcock's "A Companion to the Iliad based on the Translation by Richard Lattimore" goes through the Iliad with commentary on each important event, and quotations from Lattimore to illustrate. Normal Postlethwaite's "Homer's Iliad: A Commentary on the translation of Richard Lattimore" goes through almost line by line, and in my opinion is so detailed that it would almost double your reading time. Frankly, I think for a first reading one should just read it through getting the most out of it that one can, and then use these works on a second reading to fill in details.
Mark Edwards's "Homer: Poet of the Iliad" has a series of sections on such issues as The Bard, Language, Battle Scenes, Similes, and other general topics about the Iliad. The second half of the book consists of commentaries on some, but by no means all, of the Books. (he has commentaries on Books 1, 3, 6, 9, 13, 14, 16, 18, 22, and 24). These are not line-by-line commentaries as with Willcox and Postlethwaite, but discuss major issues covered in those Books. It's useful if you have the time and interest to dig into the Iliad more deeply, but again, not at the cost of spending sufficient time on the Iliad itself.
E.T. Owen's "The Story of the Iliad" is a fairly simplistic summary of the story line, but I really can't recommend it for serious readers.
Albert B. Lord, "The Singer of Tales" isn't specifically about the Iliad, but is a fascinating look at his research, following the work of Milman Parry, into whether, and if so how, the original bards, in a time when there was no written text but the entire Iliad had to be memorized to be sung, the poets could possibly have memorized that amount of material. Parry and he found (this was work started by POarry in the 1930s and continued by Lord in the 1940s and 1950s) that there were still oral bards active in Yugoslavia, and they went to study them and learn how they were able to sing such lengthy material. Their findings are quite interesting, but unless you really want to delve into the subject you can probably learn all you need to from the Wikipedia article on Milman Parry. The key point is that there was not a single fixed text of the oral epics, but that while much of the text was memorized, there was an overall framework fleshed out by formulaic sections which almost always occur in the same places in the lines to fit the meter, and that each recitation would have been slightly different (and most likely edited to fit the audience, so that the exploits of heroes from the city he was telling the tale in would be emphasized and those of heroes from rival cities de-emphasized.)
The who issue is quite fascinating, but isn't necessary to know to enjoy and benefit form reading the Iliad today.
My library has a copy of the Fitzgerald translation on audio, and it's been good so far. It's understandable, but doesn't feel too dumbed down or "modernized."
Fitzgerald has long been a favorite for me. There are other translations that are closer to the literal original Greek, but Fitzgerald sounds natural & easy in English. Of course the characters & the story in the Iliad are so good that it doesn't much matter whose version you read it in, so long as you read it. Hope you enjoy it, Alana.
Alana wrote: "My library has a copy of the Fitzgerald translation on audio, and it's been good so far. It's understandable, but doesn't feel too dumbed down or "modernized.""C.S. Lewis has an essay on some of the "problems" with the Fitzgerald translation. It's called Odysseus Sails Again. He realized that there are unfair criticisms out there so he's very gentle with the issues, but issues there are. My friend, who knows Homeric Greek, says that when you read Fitzgerald, you get more Fitzgerald than Homer. I think Fitzgerald is very readable, but I'd prefer to hear Homer or as close to him as I can get. Richard Lattimore is a well respected translator, usually the scholarly choice, and my favourite. He's readable, but he also keeps the beauty and majesty of the poem.
I wanted to get the Lattimore translation but my library doesn't have either a print or audio copy of that one, so I figured I'd just go with what they have available. I may do a more scholarly re-read in the future, but so far I'm liking it well enough. It's read by Dan Stevens, so it flows along nicely :)
I have read a fair amount of Homer in the original as well as in several different translations. Which version is better is largely a matter of taste. Personally I think Lattimore is closer word for word to the original, but Fitzgerald is more natural English & better poetry. (I'd put Fagles in between but a little closer to Fitzgerald.) But again, the important thing is to read it, in whatever version.
I'm often limited by my library and have to choose between what I want and what I can get, so I know exactly what you mean. And after all, it's better to read The Iliad in whatever version you can get than not read it at all. Try looking for Lattimore in used book stores and you can probably pick up his translation quite cheaply. Happy reading, Alana!
I found one of the Odyssey the other day, but it was abridged, so no good!
Bill wrote: "Fitzgerald is more natural English & better poetry..."That's interesting because one of the issues Lewis brings up its unnatural English. I'd disagree about the poetry or at least the sound of it ......... Lattimore sounds much more majestic and the pace is more balanced. My friend who has read many translations and can read the original, had this to say about Fitzgerald: "Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key." About Lattimore, she said: "For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original ...... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love." Even though I had the same feeling with both translations, I'm no expert so I just went with those whom, I felt, were.
Alana wrote: "I found one of the Odyssey the other day, but it was abridged, so no good!"Me, too! I avoid abridged versions like the plague. I'm sure a Lattimore translation will pop up for you somewhere and then you'll be able to comparet it yourself to Fitzgerald, which is always fun.
Indeed, I'm enjoying the Fitzgerald version thus far, so I imagine I'll be up for a re-read in another translation on down the road :)
I recently had my first read of the Odyssey with Fitzgerald, now you whetted my appetite for Lattimore's Iliad and Odyssey! Thanks for the great info here.
Your welcome, Simon! Since there's some interest, I'll post what she mentioned about other translations (of The Iliad and The Odyssey) here as well. She's very well-read and I tend to trust her judgement:"For the Iliad and the Odyssey, imnsho, the only translations I have ever seen which begin to do justice to Homer are Lattimore's. Simple, unadorned, but managing in so many places to capture the feel of the original ... some things just can't be translated... but Lattimore makes me catch glimpses of the real thing and has a quiet grandeur which I love.
Fitzgerald has a nice translation of the Aeneid, but his translations of the Iliad and the Odyssey are, imho, too florid.. there is too much Fitzgerald and not enough Homer. They are pretty, but way off key.
The Fagles translations repulse me. They are so colloquial, so far from Homeric that they feel more like modern adaptations than translations.
Lombardo takes even more liberties with the text - imho this is definitely more of an adaptation than a translation.
For a very literal translation (most useful if you are trying to translate Homer yourself) the Loeb editions have facing English and Greek pages and follows the word order of each Greek line as closely as possible - I wouldn't use it as a primary text, but it is a neat supplement. (Ex: "The wrath sing, goddess, of Peleus' son Achilles," )
Some people like the Rieu prose translations, and I guess they could serve as an intro to Homer, but I wouldn't use them.
Mandlebaum has a slightly clunky translation of the Odyssey - he is my translator of choice for Dante (though it was a hard choice!), but not for Homer... but, unlike most of the others it *is* a reasonably reliable translation, as I recall.
Pope's translations are an older version of what Fagles has done - an adaptation in the "translator's" own style.. pretty, but not Homer... but, imo, less grating than Fagles and less ornate than Fitzgerald... though Fitzgerald is a more reliable translator.
Butler has prose translations of Homer... pedestrian is the adjective I would apply to them. Rieu's has a little more flavor, but Butler's is sold and straightforward.... not a version I would choose, but there isn't anything *wrong* with it...
Chapman's translation is a classic in its own right, but one I would read for itself not for Homer...
Those are all of the translations I have read... or at least can remember off hand ....
It's interesting to read different translations to compare them. I know Constance Garnett gets a bad rap for putting too much of herself into her Russian translations, but they are still a pleasure to read. I just have to keep reminding myself that I'm probably getting more of her than Tolstoy, for example. But with Homer, I'm more of a purist with a balance. I suppose it's because he lived such a long time ago, but (to paraphrase C.S. Lewis) I'd rather find out what it feels like to be Homer, than what it feels like for Homer to be me, if you know what I mean. :-)
I wonder what translation to go for with the Aeneid, as Lattimore has none for it i think, and Fagles i hear isn't very faithful.
Fitzgerald's The Aeneid is great; this one:
I avoid Fagles. I think he might be useful for high school kids or if someone is really struggling with reading other translations but I find him seriously simplified.
Bill wrote: "I have read a fair amount of Homer in the original as well as in several different translations. Which version is better is largely a matter of taste. Personally I think Lattimore is closer word fo..."I've been re-reading it for another group, and chose the Mandelbaum translation this time, having read both Lattimore (3 times) and Fitzgerald (and Fagles) in the past. I'm really appreciating Mandelbaum, and he seems to me closer to the Greek than Fagles and Fitzgerald, though not as scholarly as Lattimore, which is still the translation I respect most.
Everyman wrote: "I've been re-reading it for another group, and chose the Mandelbaum translation this time, having read both Lattimore (3 times) and Fitzgerald (and Fagles) in the past. I'm really appreciating Mandelbaum, and he seems to me closer to the Greek than Fagles and Fitzgerald, though not as scholarly as Lattimore, which is still the translation I respect most. ..."I haven't read Mandelbaum's translation of The Iliad. I have read his translation of The Divine Comedy and am presently reading his translation of Metamorphoses. I've heard that he sticks closer to the original, but so far I've found his translations somewhat "stiff". That's what I appreciate about Lattimore; he seems reach a very good balance.
In selecting a translation of Homer, which of these criteria do you prefer?1. Homer composed an exciting & very moving poem in beautiful epic Greek poetic language. An English translation should be an exciting & very moving poem in beautiful epic English poetic language.
2. Homer was an archaic foreign poet whose whose style is nothing like English poetry. A good translation should be a word for word & line for line equivalent to the Greek.
Bill wrote: "In selecting a translation of Homer, which of these criteria do you prefer?"Can I say neither, in the way you've defined them?
Greek syntax is very different from English syntax, so trying to to a word-for-word translation would be almost silly. Also, if we're being really true to the original, Greek originally was written without any spacing or punctuation, sotobeliteralwewouldhavetopresenttheEnglishtextlikethiswhichisveryawkward
But your option 1 sounds as though you accept considerable straying from the literal text, as does Lobardo, and I don't think that works either.
I think it's necessarily a compromise between the two. Which doesn't, I recognize, answer your question in the "1 or 2" manner you asked it, but I can't answer it that simply.
I agree it's not as easy as that, though I found that Bill does make a case for free translations that create a feeling of (english) poetry that corresponds to the style it might have in greek.
Of course it is necessary to compromise. I was merely trying to show the extremes a translator has to choose between.
Bill, I'd say your option number 1 reflects more the original intent and spirit of the ancient bards. Since it was by and large an oral tradition, a "definitive" version doesn't really exist. The poets would adjust the poem to incorporate current events, address varying cultural norms, or change a word in order to maintain the integrity of the meter, among many other changes each time the epic was told.P.S. I'm happy to see other classicists! So far and few in this world, and most the ones I know, I can trace back to college!
Reading the Classics
Books mentioned in this topic
The Iliad (other topics)The Divine Comedy: Inferno - Purgatorio - Paradiso (other topics)
Metamorphoses (other topics)
The Aeneid (other topics)
The Iliad (other topics)
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