21st Century Literature discussion
This topic is about
A Tale for the Time Being
2014 Book Discussions
>
A Tale for the Time Being - Parts I-II (March 2014)
date
newest »
newest »
I was so hooked on this book from the start when I started it just a few days early for the group.. The worst thing was when I started and immediately realized that there's no way I'm going to read it along with the group, cause it's just going to be gone in a few sittings. It's one of those books. Still, I'd like to talk about it with you guys, so I'll try not to give away anything.The concept of a 'time being' was something I really liked. An interesting point, and an interesting play on words.
One thing I wanted to ask the readers though. I'm someone who can speak Japanese and have spoken it for about a decade, so all the little words sprinkled here and there and all the cultural details didn't bother me so much cause I didn't have to look them up or look at the footnotes very much, even. And yet, even as someone who knows all this, it was a little annoying how Nao always used those terms which I thought some of you might not even been familiar with. Was that part annoying to read? It was a little annoying to me at first, but then even in just a few chapters I understood that what Nao has to say is more interesting and important than how she says it, so maybe that's okay. Plus, I think the writer wanted to make Nao's texts more teenage by doing this. And yet, it was a little bit annoying. So I wondered if it was the same for you.
Another interesting thing. Did it make you wonder if the author is writing about herself? The name, many details? I couldn't help wondering if maybe Nao was really and the author did write about herself, haha. However, the Ruth in the book lives in Canada. I think I have checked, but doesn't the actual author live in America still? (or am I wrong) I wonder what made her move her alter ego to Canada? (especially the way she talks about America and American politics later on - in many parts of the book, so I think it's present even in the first chapters - even why they moved to Canada in the first place).
Those would be my questions for now.
I'm going to avoid the time being question for the time being and go right to what hooked me on this book.I felt almost that Ozeki was being really ... I don't know, the only word I've got is naughty. I mean are you allowed to do that?
I've heard from (who knows where) that when we dream, we are always dreaming about ourselves. And by extension, maybe when we write we are always writing about ourselves. But who does that? Who casts themselves as the narrator of the novel, with their own name and all! It's both delightful and really uncomfortable. That hooked me. I think there are moments like that through out, that are what elevate this book.
with their own husband even, as far as I understood.it also kept me wondering. in a way hoping that this tale was real.
Evelina wrote: "I was so hooked on this book from the start when I started it just a few days early for the group.. The worst thing was when I started and immediately realized that there's no way I'm going to read..."I would like to pull out two points from your post, Evelina. Both happen to be points I had flagged for discussion myself.
First is the sprinkling of Japanese words and the extensive descriptions of cultural details. That annoyed me as well in the sense that it made Nao's diary feel manufactured rather than personal. And yet we could probably argue that it is effective in reminding us that Nao's chapters take place in Japan. What did everyone else think of the stylistic elements of Nao's diaries?
Second is whether the author is writing about herself. I had skimmed a few author bios (e.g. https://www.goodreads.com/author/show...) and knew that Ruth Ozeki is married to Oliver Kellhammer, and that they spend time in both New York and Vancouver. As such, I went into this novel assuming that Ruth and Oliver were in fact the author and her husband functioning as some sort of meta-narrative. How does it change our perception of the story if we make this assumption? (And remember, no spoilers without tags!)
Deborah wrote: "Who casts themselves as the narrator of the novel, with their own name and all! It's both delightful and really uncomfortable. That hooked me..."Yes! I found it audacious that she would flirt so close to the divide between reality and fiction. Could she perhaps be making more of a zen statement? Reality, fiction, same thing.
I saw the footnotes as being "Ruth's" information. There are several places in the book where Ruth is google-ing information about the Japanese slang and pop culture. I don't think the footnotes are Nao's contribution, but Ruth explaining the concept for her American/Canadian readers.
The footnotes looked to me to be written in Ruth's voice, too.Some readers can be strongly emotionally affected by what they read. I'm one of them (due to an imagination without an off switch). There are some very unpleasant parts in this novel that made me sad or angry. But I finished it, and I would like to assure my fellow sensitive readers that I found the payoff at the end sufficient to justify reading what came before. Also, that the tone varied enough that the unpleasant parts where surrounded by less emotionally wrenching parts.
Daniel wrote: "First is the sprinkling of Japanese words and the extensive descriptions of cultural details. That annoyed me as well in the sense that it made Nao's diary feel manufactured rather than personal. And yet we could probably argue that it is effective in reminding us that Nao's chapters take place in Japan. What did everyone else think of the stylistic elements of Nao's diaries?..."You know, at first I felt like they were manufactured as well. But then, then.. I tried remembering what it was like to be a 15 year old girl. That might be different in your case, you were never a girl :) but as for me.. I was someone immersed in otaku culture when I was 15. It's not so easy to remember, as that was 10 years ago :D but still, I have some written things, some diaries, some chats with my friends.. and you know what? I did talk something like that :/ it's a little embarrassing, and Nao's talking does feel weird at times, but let's hand it to her.. she's 15! turning 16. have you heard kids of 15 talking..? I have to say, when you look at it like that, it's more likely to seem real. Maybe it's a little bit overloaded, but she's in Japan, she's out of place there and she's 15. keeping all that in mind, I think it's quite okay for her to talk like that. although it is annoying, but hey - most teenagers are, kind of.
about Ruth and Oliver, I also came to the same conclusion, but I found it quite funny, cause, well.. she's openly criticizing Oliver. like, A LOT. I wouldn't want to be him :D I mean.. it's pretty mean to do that in public like that, isn't it? (I mean, a novel is definitely public)... I often wondered if this other-Ruth is partly made up, or if the author actually put her own feelings down on the pages. because if she did, I don't know if she's very happy about herself and about her marriage. on the other hand, Daniel said that the author does live in New York on and off - Ruth doesn't in the book, but wishes she did. maybe the book-Ruth is the possible past of the author if she had chosen a more sedentary life? and she thinks she might have regretted that? because the book-Ruth definitely doesn't seem happy to me.
I hope you guys didn't think any of that was spoilers. I didn't think so, cause it's pretty general, but please tell me if I'm making a mess.
Deborah - "reality, fiction, same thing." - I loved that :D (view spoiler)
yeah, the footnotes are definitely Ruth's.
Daniel's quote, actually. He's kinda brilliant our Daniel.I'm going to put my second thought over in the second half of the discussion. I think it's a better thought for the whole thing.
I didn't find the Japanese footnotes at all annoying. I've been reading a fair amount of Japanese fiction lately and I find these insights into the culture very valuable.
The theme of the book as far as the whole concept of time and time beings is quite an alluring one. I enjoy all the Proustian references. The quote on page 109 I thought was very important: "In reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer's work is merely a kind of optical instrument, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader's recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth." I love this!! It's exactly why I read!
Then, a few pages later (p123),..."There was nothing there. No hands, no face, no eyes, no glasses, no Ruth at all. Nothing but a vast and empty ruthlessness." (bold type added) Without a savvy reader, where is the writer and where is the story?
I am enjoying this book tremendously.
The theme of the book as far as the whole concept of time and time beings is quite an alluring one. I enjoy all the Proustian references. The quote on page 109 I thought was very important: "In reality, every reader, while he is reading, is the reader of his own self. The writer's work is merely a kind of optical instrument, which he offers to the reader to permit him to discern what, without the book, he would perhaps never have seen in himself. The reader's recognition in his own self of what the book says is the proof of its truth." I love this!! It's exactly why I read!
Then, a few pages later (p123),..."There was nothing there. No hands, no face, no eyes, no glasses, no Ruth at all. Nothing but a vast and empty ruthlessness." (bold type added) Without a savvy reader, where is the writer and where is the story?
I am enjoying this book tremendously.
Terri wrote: "Then, a few pages later (p123),..."There was nothing there. No hands, no face, no eyes, no glasses, no Ruth at all. Nothing but a vast and empty ruthlessness." (bold type added) Without a savvy reader, where is the writer and where is the story?"Yes! An excellent quote that thrilled me as well when I read it.
The Proustian quotes are something I eventually hope to bring up in the spoiler discussions. They are indeed very fitting - not just on account of their literary insight, but also because his oeuvre was so concerned with time (lost and regained).
It felt ironic that I quoted this on another board a couple of days ago:Clifton Fadiman wrote: "Like many others, I have been reading these books, off and on, for most of my long life. One thing I've found out is that it's easy enough to say they enlarge you, but rather difficult to prove to young readers. Perhaps it's better to say that they act like a developing fluid on film. That is, they bring into consciousness what you didn't know you knew. Even more than tools of self-enhancement, they are tools of self-discovery...." (bold added)
The New Lifetime Reading Plan: The Classical Guide to World Literature, Revised and Expanded
Or later:
To repeat a bit, Fadiman writes in his introductory comments .... "We all die uneducated....Even more than tools of self-enhancement, they are tools of self discovery...."
A bit of intertextuality? Or am I perhaps misusing the term in referring more to overlapping conversations than one text influencing another?
oh yes, Proust! I have been told by a friend I should read his stuff a while ago, but of course you just say 'yeah' in those cases and forget. but now, now! now I'm definitely going to read it! the quotes were absolutely wonderful.the 'ruthlessness' thing, I thought that was great. and a little professional itch - I kept wondering how one would get away with translating this.. something like this is a translator's headache. but I always love those when I see those.. it makes the book unique in the language. translate it and it loses at least a little of the magic.
Out of curiousity, is anyone reading this as an audiobook? I'm curious to know how the word-pictures were handled in that format.
I did. And she talks at the end about how it's a trade off. Listening you read it exactly as your wrote it. (She narrates.) Reading you get all the bonus stuff. She suggests you check out the print version too.
Deborah wrote: "I did. And she talks at the end about how it's a trade off. Listening you read it exactly as your wrote it. (She narrates.) Reading you get all the bonus stuff. She suggests you check out the print..."A trade off in both regards, I imagine. Having Ozeki narrate a fictional version of herself must bring the experience to a whole other level.
I am glad to hear it was mentioned at the end, though, rather than simply ignored. Thanks for the insight!
hey Deborah, how is the Japanese handled in the audio version, Deborah? I mean all the footnotes? Is it just read the way you're supposed to understand it, or is it first in Japanese, and then explained? Just curious :)it must have been a little bit hard listening to this though. Seems like it would be a little hazy that way. Although if the author's reading it, that would be cool to hear solely for that purpose..
I started this yersterday and I read the first 30 pages :)It's a pleasure to read it so far! I didn't expect to enjoy it so much upfront.
And I don't find the notes annoying. The cultural references were enriching, the japanese words as long as they are explained by Ruth are okay, even if these lead you to several notes. :)
I like in fact the way in which everything is so full of interesting particulars, and Nao's account is very likable! :-D
She simply reads it in Japanese.
I have finally finished Parts I & II. I'm mostly neutral on the book at the moment. Things I have liked are the letters and the discussion of time and suicide. Things I have yet to decide whether I like or dislike are the narrators. Nao's journal reminds me of the young girl's journal in The Elegance of the Hedgehog, especially the point of view. Teenage angst is teenage angst. And I'm just not sure about Ruth yet. What exactly is her problem? She seems stuck and somewhat despondent.
Linda wrote: "...Nao's journal reminds me of the young girl's journal in The Elegance of the Hedgehog, especially the point of view...."Linda -- thanks for calling our attention to that parallel. I hadn't gone there, but it has been a bit since I read Elegance. I don't think I would parallel the story with Swamplandia! however -- although that is not a journal either. Nao has moved among a variety of cultures and situations. We don't get a lot about her mother, other than that she rescued her husband (Nao's father) repeatedly and eventually went to work herself ("stopped going to the aquarium to watch the jellyfish" -- sounds as if she, too, had undergone withdrawal in her change of living conditions). She did examine Nao after they had gone to the sento (baths) together, but her advice or support didn't seem very helpful. But Nao was also in that separation phase that goes with being a teenager, so she was probably of a mindset neither to listen or to acknowledge any impact, such as her mother visiting the school. A sustaining relationship seems to come with her grandmother and the summer at Miyagi.
What exactly is her problem? She seems stuck and somewhat despondent.
Likely at least partly grieving of losses -- her mother, her move from NY, changes in living conditions and work surroundings,... (See Holmes and Rahe stress scale. Ruth may not be over the top, but she is probably in the risk range.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_a...
Well, I'll say first, I am behind most of you. Here's what happened: she referenced Heidegger so closely in conjunction with Nao's anger, I decided to review what he was all about in terms of meaning of life stuff, and BOOM, I had forgotten, Heidegger's big deal, and unfinished big deal at that, was called BEING AND TIME!So I've been reading Being and Time again. Heidegger focused on the idea that Western Civilization had always ignored questioning what being was, taking it for a given or as a postulate. There's a lot more to it and I suppose that's why it takes a few pages to illicit. Later in life, time became a really important thing for Heidegger and he comes to believe that he mishandled time in his original work.
Having said all of that, my impression is that the author is lost in what she's trying to communicate about all of this and it makes the book sort of messy. The meta fiction of post modernism is behind the trick with inserting herself and her husband, but she does a terrible job with this. The best example I know of this is when DFW uses it in The Pale King. It's difficult to pull off and too gimmicky if not done well. And then the endnotes, which DFW mastered of course, and I think she does a terrible job with the endnotes. There are endnotes, parentheticals, and clauses, and she doesn't seem to trust the last two.
Having said all of that, I love so many passages in this book. It's perhaps child-like in style, but some of it is enchanting. I get tired of Nao's questions to the reader, yet another post modern trick handled poorly, but the rest of her narratives are great fun for me. She is a truthful narrator who knows herself well for her age, and it love the results. The author and her husband are annoying in their snobbishness and reverse snobbishness, and I wouldn't want to be around either one for more than a couple minutes, but they seem to serve their roles as alternate slices of time and being.
I love the references to Proust, and you can tell by the style that the author has learned a great deal from Proust and admires the book. Of course, Proust shows you that there is no need to search for lost time, that you need to carefully regard every moment and try to understand your place in it, which brings you back to Heidegger who tried to tell us the same thing. We think of it as Eastern, but really it's true consciousness vs. mailing in your life.
I'm always re-reading Proust. He's close to the top in my Kindle. Last year, a group tried to read A Recherché in one year but I couldn't keep up with the buggers! My, but did they analyze the heck out of the Proust to perhaps too much of an extreme, but every day, I was learning something new.
Carl wrote: "..The author and her husband are annoying in their snobbishness and reverse snobbishness, and I wouldn't want to be around either one for more than a couple minutes..."Carl -- do you think the author in the book reflects the "real" Ruth Ozeki? (I enjoyed the book enough that I would go and hear her speak or attend a local book signing.)
Thanks for the stuff on Heidegger, Carl - that was really interesting.Lily - if you ever do go to listen to her speak, be sure to tell us all about it (pretty please! as I will have no such chance ever, geographically, and I am also very curious about some things, particularly about how close the Ruth in the book was meant to be to the real Ruth)
Evelina wrote: "Lily - if you ever do go to listen to her speak, be sure to tell us all about it (pretty please! as I will have no such chance ever, geographically, and I am also very curious about some things, particularly about how close the Ruth in the book was meant to be to the real Ruth) ..."Evelina -- Will try to remember your request if I ever have the opportunity. For now, I am unaware of any in the region. But, if anyone hears that she will be speaking in the NYC area, I'd appreciate a heads up. Many places and times I wouldn't be able to make, but I might be lucky....
I don't know what is real, but usually the postmodernist intent with inserting yourself is to make a character sketch the highlights the personality defects. The author would want to be laughing at herself and encouraging us to do the same.
@25Carl wrote: "...The author and her husband are annoying in..."Carl, if you haven't already caught it, you might find Ozeki's comments about Author Ruth, Writer Ruth, Character Ruth of interest here:
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Book...
ooh, I missed that one. very interesting. will have to check it out.
Lily, I thought the interview was interesting. The book was a slow-motion failure for me.
Carl wrote: "Lily, I thought the interview was interesting. The book was a slow-motion failure for me."Thx for your response, Carl. Sounds like the read was a better experience for me than for you. Bits of it continue to float to my attention, even though I have moved on to other things, albeit partly because of the discussion here. But, still, the idea of a well preserved diary in a baggy floating up on a distant shore and its contents leading me to explore a little more about Japan has been personally worthwhile. On to other things.... (I have finished our April group selection.)
21st Century Literature
Books mentioned in this topic
The Elegance of the Hedgehog (other topics)Swamplandia! (other topics)
The Elegance of the Hedgehog (other topics)
The New Lifetime Reading Plan: The Classic Guide to World Literature (other topics)
A Tale for the Time Being (other topics)
To get things started, how did you process the concept of a "time being" in the first pages? Did it shift the way you thought of the title, or even the larger story?