Discussion - Week Two - Ice - Chapter 8 - 15

[Jim]

This discussion covers Chapter Eight thru Fifteen, p. 86 – 158 and Conclusions/Book as a whole


Over hill and dale, through feast and famine, war and sorta-peace, our narrator pursues his girl with varying degrees of success, sometimes with her, sometimes chasing her, but always obsessed with her. In the end, they drive off into the sunset – sort of…

[Hol]

I was surprised at how happy the ending seemed to me. They are reconciled after so much antagonism. Sure, the ice is still coming, but they are together and at peace. And the girl seems like a real character finally. Having her own space in the beach house made her come alive for what seems to be the first time in her life. And the narrator has grown too. He finally is able to see himself from her perspective and gains empathy. After a violent and bleak setting for most of the book the ending felt surprisingly peaceful.
All in all I loved this book. I tried to recommend it to my real life sci-fi/fantasy book club but failed in describing it well and only got confused looks.

[Jim]

Holly wrote: "After a violent and bleak setting for most of the book the ending felt surprisingly peaceful..."

Did you like the punchline at the end when he comments on still having the gun? I suspect we might guess the happy ending...

[Whitney]

Jim wrote: "Holly wrote: "After a violent and bleak setting for most of the book the ending felt surprisingly peaceful..."

Did you like the punchline at the end when he comments on still having the gun? I sus..."

I was reading one article that was talking about how Kavan had to do repeated drafts before her publisher would accept Ice. There was speculation as to the 'happy' ending being a commercial necessity, and the gun being Kavan getting the last word.

Jim, I also thought of 'Fight Club' with regards to the narrator's constant confusion between himself and the warden. At one point the POV get a bit confused as to that point as well. I saw them as two sides of the same (male, sorry) coin. He saw himself as her rescuer, but kept ending up being her abuser. She herself never seemed to rise much above the level of victim and bone for the dogs to fight over, although the interlude where she became a popular figure in the town was interesting. Any speculation on that?

[Hol]

Definitely thought of Fight Club too!

[Whitney]

Holly wrote: (in the discussion of the previous part) "I wondered if she was some sort of metaphor for drug addiction, given the author's history. She tantalizes him, draws him irresistibly to her, but is at the same time is completely passive."

To me it seems more the opposite, that he is a metaphor for HER addiction. In the scene where The Warden essentially rapes her, Kavan writes

"To bring the thing to a finish, he stared into her dilated eyes, implacably forced into them his own arrogant, ice-blue gaze. This was the moment of her surrender, opposition collapsed at this point, when she seemed to fall and drown in those cold blue mesmeric depths. Now she had no more will. He could do what he liked with her."

And later, when the narrator sees her on the verandah:

"Sudden terror had seized her: the thought of the man whose ice-blue eyes had a magnetic power which could deprive her of will and thrust her down into hallucination and horror. The fear she lived with, always near her, close behind the world's normal façade, had become concentrated on him. And there was another connected with him, they were in league together, or perhaps they were the same person."

Her savior, and her jailer. And both passages mention the "ice-blue" eyes. I saw the world of the enclosing ice as the world that he is making and dragging her into.

On an unrelated note, I kept thinking of Kobe Abe's Inter Ice Age 4 as I read this. An occasionally surrealistic description of a coming ice age.

[Jim]

Whitney wrote: "She herself never seemed to rise much above the level of victim and bone for the dogs to fight over, although the interlude where she became a popular figure in the town was interesting. Any speculation on that?.."

I've been pondering this question for the past three days. I think we just have to take the narrator at his word re: the girl's destroyed psyche via her mother's mistreatment. One reason she may have been with the warden was that his dominance was at least something she was used to. I also thought that she found the narrator's attempts to be nice to her to be painfully confusing, and possibly condescending. She did find both of them to be tormenters, but for different reasons.

And so, once she's in the tropical climate, out from under the thumb of the warden, and on a very loose leash from the narrator - and he was bankrolling her material whims - she was able to literally relax in the sun and find herself amongst the company of other people - specifically people who were NOT her two tormentors.

She was a beautiful young woman who appeared somewhat phantom-like in terms of her color and fragility, and I imagine that the appearance of such a creature might have been a nice diversion to help the people not focus on the inevitable progress of the ice. So she was accepted as is by the town, without having to serve the needs and obsessions of the tormentors.

[Hol]

Jim wrote: "One reason she may have been with the warden was that his dominance was at least something she was used to. I also thought that she found the narrator's attempts to be nice to her to be painfully confusing, and possibly condescending. She did find both of them to be tormenters, but for different reasons."

And one could argue that the reason she eventually accepted the narrator was not his empathy/niceness but him raping her. She was used to trusting people who took advantage of her and so he finally fit into that category.

[Jonathan]

The happy ending was a surprise. Well happy-ish, given that the world's going to be covered in ice and everything's going to die....but you know what I mean...

[Larry]

Somewhere around chapter 10 it struck me, "Dhalgren!" Anyone else read it? I knew there was a mood, an abstraction, that felt a little familiar. Dhalgren, written around the same time, dystopian, nameless narrators, constant geographical shape-shifting etc. They make happy book-fellows.

[Jonathan]

Larry wrote: "Somewhere around chapter 10 it struck me, "Dhalgren!" Anyone else read it? I knew there was a mood, an abstraction, that felt a little familiar. Dhalgren, written around the same time, dystopian, n..."

No, I hadn't heard of it before...just looked it up to see it's by Samuel R. Delaney. Is it good? The style of Ice made me think of a mixture of Wm Burroughs and J.G. Ballard.

I believe that in the '60s/'70s scientists were predicting a Big Freeze rather than Global Warming. I guess a lot of that must have filtered into fiction of the time, especially sci-fi.

[Larry]

Jonathan wrote: "Is it good?"

Wow, it is many things!!! I would recommend it to people who like fat challenges. It's definitely the most "out-there" sci-fi, I've ever read. Really poetic, yeah full of nasty sex as well! All things for all people. Like Ice it required my full attention as it was really easy to get lost... (says a lover of Joyce and Proust)

[Jonathan]

Dhalgren sounds good...I've heard of Delaney, particularly Hogg. Reading Ice has got me in the mood for reading some more good sci-fi, which can hold its own with 'proper' literature in my mind.

[Whitney]

Larry wrote: "Somewhere around chapter 10 it struck me, "Dhalgren!" Anyone else read it? I knew there was a mood, an abstraction, that felt a little familiar. Dhalgren, written around the same time, dystopian, n..."

I read it over 30 years ago (yipes!), so don't remember many details. But, you're right - I do remember surreal shifting landscapes and shifting narrative as well. Great, another monster book on the tbr list!

[Whitney]

Jonathan wrote: "Dhalgren sounds good...I've heard of Delaney, particularly Hogg. Reading Ice has got me in the mood for reading some more good sci-fi, which can hold its own with 'proper' literature in my mind."

Ice also put me in mind of the works of Steve Erickson, especially Rubicon Beach. I'd definitely recommend trying his books if you're looking for more genre-bending, 'apocalypse of the mind' kind of literature.

[Jonathan]

Rubicon Beach looks good - I haven't heard of the author.

Does anyone know if other books by Kavan have a sci-fi feel to them?

[Larry]

Jonathan wrote: "Dhalgren sounds good...I've heard of Delaney, particularly Hogg. Reading Ice has got me in the mood for reading some more good sci-fi, which can hold its own with 'proper' literature in my mind."

Cool, I'd totally recommend it then! Hogg on the other hand, I've been severely warned about.... which means I'll have to read it. Delaney is neat just as a black, gay voice in Sci Fi.

[Larry]

Anyone have any ideas as to what's up with the singing lemurs??

[Whitney]

Larry wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what's up with the singing lemurs??"

I was hoping someone else would explain the Happy Harmonious Singing Lemurs of Peace. I guess I thought the obvious interpretation in that they represent an ideal outside of the world of violence and abuse that the characters exist in. It's interesting that the two men are the ones who are attracted to the lemurs (although ultimately rejecting them for the violence of life), while the woman finds their song to be torture. Maybe to her, with her lifelong history or abuse, the promise of peace and harmony is as alien as true kindness.

The lemurs play a big part in Mercury, as well. Actually, the entire book seems to have been cannibalized for Ice. If you click on the GR link, the description will show the obvious similarities. Here is the first part of Mercury, which is all about the lemurs, as reproduced at the "Lemur Conservation Society" website :-) http://www.lemurreserve.org/literatur...

[Larry]

Whitney wrote: "Larry wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what's up with the singing lemurs??"

I was hoping someone else would explain the Happy Harmonious Singing Lemurs of Peace. I guess I thought the obvious i..."

Thanks Whitney.

[Whitney]

Larry wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Larry wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what's up with the singing lemurs??"

I was hoping someone else would explain the Happy Harmonious Singing Lemurs of Peace. I guess I thoug..."

I was just posting idle speculation in the hopes someone else could flesh out an interpretation. And a link. I frequently post links when I have no clue what things mean.

[Larry]

Whitney wrote: "Larry wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Larry wrote: "Anyone have any ideas as to what's up with the singing lemurs??"

I was hoping someone else would explain the Happy Harmonious Singing Lemurs of Peace. I..."


Your speculation and link were more than I expected as a response.

[tia]

I am pretty ignorant of Kavan's background, excepting the short blurbs I've read on Wikipedia...can anyone tell me if Kavan was the victim of sexual assault? The descriptions of sexual violence in this book, sometimes painfully accurate, would point towards Kavan being betrayed in this most fundamental aspect of the female pysche.
Or are the passages concerning rape symbolic of Kavan's relationship with drugs and alcohol? Could she be describing the desperation and destruction of addiction?

[Jim]

Tia wrote: "I am pretty ignorant of Kavan's background, excepting the short blurbs I've read on Wikipedia...can anyone tell me if Kavan was the victim of sexual assault? The descriptions of sexual violence in..."

Of the little bit I've read, I haven't found specific mention of sexual assault. Apparently she used heroin to alleviate pain from a back condition. Coupled with mental breakdowns and stays in asylums, I'd say Kavan is describing all kinds of situations that involve loss of control and physical/emotional assault, submission, oppression, and revulsion.

[mkfs]

Finally started Ice last weekend, and pushed through it this evening.

I was convinced the entire time that the encroaching ice was a manifestation of the narrator's emotional distance (from the girl/himself/world-at-large), and that the whole thing was a hallucination that would end with him still driving up to visit her and her husband, as at the beginning.

The ending more or less nixes that theory, as they drive off into the snow to die together.

Throughout, the narrator is alienated from other people, even the girl that he is obsessed with. His nemesis, the warden, is the only person in the book with whom he has any sort of connection (an unrequited mix of rivalry and respect).

There are, of course, the singing lemurs: the one living thing on the planet which the narrator cares for or was touched by. For all we know, he was tripping balls in the jungle when he saw these singing lemurs -- there is certainly no evidence to the contrary.

[mkfs]

Larry wrote: "Somewhere around chapter 10 it struck me, "Dhalgren!" Anyone else read it? "

I read Dhalgren a year or two ago. I didn't really care for it; parts of it were too tedious, parts of it were just too naive (e.g. gang violence that amounts to a slap-fight or some Westside Story dance numbers), and parts of it were downright silly (usually the descriptions of the sex scenes). It had its moments, though, and it is definitely worth the read.

Ice reminded me a lot of J. G. Ballard's various end-of-the-world novels: The Drowned World, The Drought, Crystal World, The Wind From Nowhere, etc.

These novels start with a vague threat ("a wind that just keeps increasing!") that eventually threatens all life on earth. The characters are remarkably similar to the Ice narrator: solitary individuals of an ill-defined profession and an uncertain past, struggling to survive an existential threat while trying to achieve a goal of increasing irrelevance (finding a loved one, searching for a scientific breakthrough, etc).