Buddy read - Aug 16th, 2015

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "end of Chap 13 - this feels like a black comedy. I love it. It had me laughing. Most of the US films which portray similar stories are all so serious, so full of the consequences. We do have cau..."

That chapter was the best!

and I agree with your spoiler re Doug and Nate.

[Maya]

I just finished.
For me, after the difficult Part 1, Part 2 (where the conflict escalated) and Part 3 (the aftermath) were both great.

Can't wait for you all to finish so we can talk about Doug.
There were chapters where I felt sympathy for him, and others where I hated him for what he was doing to those around him (view spoiler)[especially to Nate (hide spoiler)].

[Maya]

@Sofia - re chapter 12 (view spoiler)[are you laughing because of the court hearing? That was ch12, right?(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

btw, can anyone tell me what a crypto-sadist is?
I think Charlotte used it in one of her conversations with her brother.

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "@Sofia - re chapter 12 [spoilers removed]"

Yes - that

I was laughing and smiling at that,(view spoiler)[ so cool, so clear, wham and the bubble burst and then those dogs :D (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "btw, can anyone tell me what a crypto-sadist is?
I think Charlotte used it in one of her conversations with her brother."

crypto-or crypt-pref. Hidden; secret: cryptoclastic. [From Greek kruptos, hidden, from kruptein, to hide.] crypto-or before a vowel crypt-combining form

sadist -
A sadist is someone who enjoys inflicting pain on others, sometimes in a sexual sense. Sadists like seeing other people hurt.

putting the two together - a sadist in hiding?

[Carol]

a definition found with the help of google: a crypto-sadist is one who enjoys inflicting the pain of encryption tools on people. Does this fit?

[Maya]

Carol wrote: "a definition found with the help of google: a crypto-sadist is one who enjoys inflicting the pain of encryption tools on people. Does this fit?"

I googled it too but only found a tweet giving the same definition. So I wasn't sure if it was correct.

Will have to find that conversation later to see the context.

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Maya wrote: "@Sofia - re chapter 12 [spoilers removed]"

Yes - that

I was laughing and smiling at that,[spoilers removed]"


(view spoiler)[that was one of the chapters I sympathized with Doug more that I was happy about Charlotte. Can't explain why. Maybe because I felt it was only downhill for him from that point on. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Maya wrote:"

(view spoiler)[you know being happy for Charlotte, admiring the elegance of the scene does not make me sneer at Doug. I think I've become invested in him and what's going to happen to him. (hide spoiler)]

[Apeiron]

Guys, sorry I've fallen behind so dismally. Seems like whenever I want to finish a book, my friends remember I exist.

I'm... Um. At chapter 5. Feel free to carry on without me, I'll read your comments in a day or three :)

I'm super glad you all (?) liked this book. I'm liking it too, 's why I'm taking my sweet time with it. Right.

[Apeiron]

Carol wrote: "a definition found with the help of google: a crypto-sadist is one who enjoys inflicting the pain of encryption tools on people. Does this fit?"

Lol. Seems like someone who makes one of those viruses that are going around lately: "we've encrypted all files on your computer; pay us ransom and you'll be able to access them again" :D

But... Inflicting the pain of encryption tools seems bizarrely specific for such a universally-sounding word.

[Maya]

Apeiron wrote: "Guys, sorry I've fallen behind so dismally. Seems like whenever I want to finish a book, my friends remember I exist.

I'm... Um. At chapter 5. Feel free to carry on without me, I'll read your comm..."

No need to rush, we'll be here :)

I think by the end of Part 1 - after the characters were introduced - the book became very interesting and it read easier and faster. At some point in Part 2 it became difficult for me to put it down.

[Carol]

Apeiron, no problem. :) I am looking foward to hear your views on this book. But take your time.

Maya, I also felt very conflicted about Doug, alternating between pity (view spoiler)[ in the end he was just so incredibly lonely. I am still not sure if he was gay, but he sure did miss Nate's company. (hide spoiler)] and contempt (view spoiler)[ he just was so mean to the youthful and naive Nate. I fear that he ruined Nate's ability to believe in the possibility of a normal, loving relationship with someone. (hide spoiler)].

Another question for everyone:
Did you think that this book deserved a Lambda? (view spoiler)[ One the one hand, you could argue that it is a great book and it includes at least one gay protagonist. And it does a great job portraying the difficulty of being in an affair with a "straight" man. But I feel that this is just such a minor part in the novel. What is your take on this? (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

@Carol

Re: Doug (view spoiler)[yeah, I don't think Doug's sexuality was an important part of his character. Surely not as important as his (I'd say controlled and not involuntary) inability to have an emotional connection with another human being. I'm still thinking about his meeting with his mother - I think for him the most poignant moment in the book. Did you get the impression that the person he grew up to be was entirely influenced by his experience with her alcoholism and detachment? I felt it was hinted that she drank so much because Doug was a reminder of his father. And when he left, she had a reason to get better. (hide spoiler)]

Re: Nate (view spoiler)[I think there was a lot in common between Doug and Nate with regards to their teen years. So one of the main things in the book for me was if Nate would be more influenced by Charlotte or by Doug. That chapter with the other gay kid I think was to show that yes, Doug caused a damage. But the kiss left me hopeful that not all was ruined for Nate. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

Sofia wrote: "Maya wrote:"

[spoilers removed]"

(view spoiler)[yes, I understand you perfectly. I'm just trying to figure out for myself why Doug's misfortune in this case threw a shadow on my happiness for Charlotte. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Hi all. Just finshed, so my thoughts still need to settle.

Apeiron, it's good, I for one am glad you chose it.

Doug (view spoiler)[ it's as if his emotional growth had been stunned it stopped to wait for his mother to talk to him. He grew, made a career but emotionally he is incapable of connection. Not even when his mum tried to talk to him he couldn't accept it and he was incapable of maintaining a connection with Nate even though he sure needed it. I feel a great sadness for such loneliness. I felt sadness too for Charlotte's loneliness but hers was not the same as Doug's, she remained capable of passion and connection.

I was glad Nate decided to kiss Alex, he had a choice there, be the guy Doug taught him to be or the guy Charlotte and his father fought for, so I'm glad he chose the latter (hide spoiler)]

Lamba - when we read gay or mm fiction, the world there is mainly gay and I often get to wonder about it's veracity visa vis the reality we live in, as straight people are often on the very sidelines, if present. A story as this one mixes up the gay and the straight more as the real world does. It does not hide them as often happens in straight fiction. The mix is just like in the real world which makes it more relevant for me and for this factor I would give it points.

[Maya]

Sofia, re your spoiler - we are on the exact same page with this one. :)

[Dani]

So interesting! I have many thoughts on this but unfortunately have to run. I will answer later this afternoon.

[Sofia]

Maya I'm trying to think what to think of all this but I'm still chasing thoughts. (view spoiler)[ considering all I should be sad, but I'm not. (hide spoiler)] I liked reading it, it involved me and as Dani said the relationships he descrbes and the sameness in our own lives have created connections with me.

[Sofia]

@Maya. I just saw your spoilers above.

Doug Nate (view spoiler)[ i was just thinking whilst i worked that Nate represented an opportunity for Doug to rework his youth. One reason to treat him so bad because he had hated that weakness in himself ergo he never let himself be that we weak again. Although Nate was going through a bad patch he had help on which to draw, his dad, his mum, charlotte, so hopefully he escapes the Doug trap. In a way Doug made him aware of the sharks out there, it's always good to know of the dangers.

I agree his sexuality did not matter to him. It was just a need to satisfy or a tool to use. Not a means of connection or a prop for his identity.

I keep wondering what it would take for him to break open because so many potential ice breakers did happen to him, the airline fuck up, Nate, Charlotte, the UA disaster, the meeting with his Mom and zilch, nada, he continues. Although he did keep seeing Nate at the end. (hide spoiler)]

[Apeiron]

(Finished part 1 and wow. I'm intimidated by how complex it is and still, even by keeping up with only a part of what is said and thought in the book, my mind is getting so much nutrition.)

[Sofia]

with all this brain food you will be churning out like material Apeiron :)

[Carol]

Apeiron, I am also very glad that you chose this. As you said, there is just so much to discover in this book (I must confess, I also did not understand everything, especially with regard to the world of finance).

Sofia, thank you for your thoughts on why it received the Lambda. I really think you have a point.

And Maya: (view spoiler)[ Good point about the mother, being unable to live with Doug because of his resemblance to his father. I really felt so incredibly sad for him after the scene with his mother, because it was so tragic that the one person he wanted a connection with could not be with him in return. He even got the house for her and that makes me weep somehow. Perhaps I pity him so much despite his unlikeable character because there is such a good reason he is the way he is. (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

Jumping in Carol re your spoiler #74

I often think of why we are the way we are and the way forward. Yes D had a reason for the way he was but is that enough of a reason for him to stay that way? Is any reason ever enough? Shouldn't we just raise our finger to that reason and say f*** y** reason, I'm going for a 'good' life regardless of you. Hard I know. Sometimes we are able to do it and sometimes we wallow or stay tied and sometimes we need an earthquake to move us and (view spoiler)[I do hope that D gets that earthquake. (hide spoiler)]

[Carol]

Sofia, you have a point. But I do not completely agree with you. Especially such an neglect in your childhood is way harder to overcome.

(view spoiler)[ The things you experience in your past shape you, especially if its in early years, and they are hidden within you. (I am sure D thinks most of the time that he is completely normal) Sometimes this is the reason why the capability to show emotions and to learn to have basic trust in people is missing. Which is required to form meaingful relationships of any kind. But D could always seek help I guess... Perhaps his incredible loneliness in the end leads him to open up a little bit, I sure hope so. (hide spoiler)] This is a very personal topic for me, so sorry for ranting a little bit. And I am not sure if I am projecting, so forgive me for that. :)

[Sofia]

rants are totally necessary in BR's Carol. I do agree with you that we are so shaped. Sometimes this makes be so, so angry that, that which is such a hurdle to me, is an easy thing for others. Probably that's where the f*** you's come from. That anger, that control is taken away from us by past experiences which leave us tied. Maybe it's my rebellious/romantic streak then that wants me to overcome, not give in. But saying all this, it is sad to think that there are things which tie us which we are not even aware off (like you say with D) because you need to be aware to do something.

[Carol]

Thanks for understanding, Sofia. I completely get the desire to have decisive control of your fate or at least cherish the illusion of it. Personally, I prefer that way of thinking about my life, too. :)

[Dani]

I love all our topics.

Warning, thought vomit ahead!

First off, I always find emotionally avoidant, narcissistic characters very fascinating.
Doug, I think, crosses the threshold to sligthly pathological, or at the very least deeply engrained narcissism, so I very much doubt that he could just change by sheer will.
However, he definitely does not really fit the callous&unemotional-traits- mold either, he is able to empathise with others (within limits) and even reflect his own emotions.
(view spoiler)[ The scene where he "reads" Nate's attachment and neediness and immediately starts to reject his own emotional response to it "A lifetime of doing only girls and now Doug had got himself into this. A hand job or two was one thing—a convenience—but now the kid was blowing him. The way he looked at Doug in the closet mirror was almost worshipful, his need clinging in a way that a girl wanting Doug to call her never had. He felt implicated somehow, and it galled him." tells me that he is able to feel, to empathise, to experience guilt, he just really is not used to it and HE DOESN'T WANT TO.

He is just severly restricted in his ability to adequately deal with his emotions.
So I'm with you Carol, this is deeply engrained and probably not really consciously accessible for him, so I don't really have much hope here.

And one of the necessary stepping-stones to getting help/therapy is the feeling of psychological distress - and I don't see that here. Doug is so disconnected from his emotions, so numb, that I doubt he will be driven to change.
The experience with Nate was monumental for him, probably because (1) he it was an unusally unsettled, vulnerable time in his life and (2)there were unknown dynamics at work (since he was a man he was able to identify with him because he saw himself in him, an intimacy that never happened with woman), but I don't think that this would be enough to change him. If anything it will make him shut everybody out even more.
But that might just be my cold, cynical heart talking :D (hide spoiler)]

Regarding his relationship with Nate:
(view spoiler)[ I'm simultanously fascinated and not quite sold on it.
But I love that it makes me think. I even read an interview with the author to help me out.
The following quote is very interesting and I'd like to hear your thoughts:
DH: As a gay reader and bookseller, I was transfixed by Nate and Doug and about whether Nate would survive Doug. You settle the matter at the end of the novel in a way that I am not going to disclose…except to say that Nate resolves his character by walking across a room. A writer who displays such savvy on how to use a “stage set” has my sustained admiration.

But I wanted to ask you if you felt any qualms about putting some “gay interest” scenes in your novel.
Do you think that the society of book readers has reached the point where it’s not going to type work. Saying: “This is not for me, it has gay sex (or more accurately perhaps, gay “non-sex”) scenes in it.” Or, with equal inaccuracy: “What a great gay novel.” (Which it isn’t, it’s just great.)
So was striking a balance in the display of sexuality an issue for you in writing this novel? Or is it a big non-issue?

AH: The challenge for me on this score was how to write about a man who had never had sex with another male having sex with a younger guy and yet not leaving the reader with the simple conclusion that he’s therefore gay.
All the characters in the book seek intimacy in one way or another. Doug is particularly bad at achieving it; in fact, the only way he even knows how to try is to exercise power over other people, whether through money or sex, whether they are male or female.
Nate is for him a kind of doppelganger, a younger, alternative version of his own self, which in one scene of the book he imagines he can penetrate; as if he could penetrate his own past.
His sexuality is less about choice of object and more about force and control. That our current spectrum of publicly recognizable sexual identities doesn’t happen to include a slot for someone like Doug Fanning says more, perhaps, about the rigidity of even a liberal understanding of sex and sexuality than it does about people who exist outside those more readily legible categories.

As for Nate and the portrayal of his desire, it took me a long time to get around to being able to write his scenes because the exposure still scared me. Even after my first book, even given how long I have been out to family and friends, it still took me a long time to work up the courage to describe what he wanted in unsentimental terms.
But as Baldwin wrote, “every artist, if they are to survive, must vomit the anguish up, all of it, the literal and fanciful.” Fanciful anguish. It’s such an accurate ways of putting it.

I have so many thoughts on it.
First off, why this reluctance to use labels? I find it annoying and uneccessary (and a bit pretentious hipsterish a la "I don't write about common gay people, so generic, my characters defy all labels and make you question the very foundation of your understanding of sexuality."
So what if he's bi? Big deal.
And by the way, that answer confirms exactely why I felt the gay relationsip felt slightly fabricated and not as real as the other portrayed relationships:
It was in fact a bit arty, a bit more construct-driven than character driven from the outset. And I can feel that in the execution.

On the other hand I (somehow) understand what he means. I just don't agree. Doug's connection with Nate is (for me) not so much about control/force (because if that's his thing he would have experimented with it before, with woman) but more about his narcissism: he sees himself in him and fights with his old self through Nate.

Other thoughts about the interview: What do you think AH means when he says he is scared by the exposure of Nate's desire.
What exactely: Nate's desire for love/connection? His desire for being fucked? His desire to being used? His desire to be submissive?
What is so scary and personally revealing about Nate for AH? I'm not sure I understand.

Also, I think you mentioned it, Carol, I think Nate will survive and find a more healthy connection. Asking the other guy for a kiss is a pretty solid indication. Thank god for small mercies :-) (hide spoiler)]

[Dani]

Regarding the Lambda: (view spoiler)[ At least in part three of the book the "gay" theme was quite prevalent, so I get why the book was considered. Also the theme was treated in a rather unique way and the sex scenes were bravely explicit (for fiction, not for us :-).

So I get it. I just think the gay relationship was the weakest part in a very strong book. But that probably still makes it stronger and more complex than in a lot of other books. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

@Dani

I enjoy our discussion a lot too.

We should also talk about Charlotte and Evelyn at some point.

To your spoilers:

(view spoiler)[
I agree, Doug can empathize. He’s not a sociopath although I must admit that was my first impression of him after reading the prologue - when he left the shop after seeing the dead bodies on the TV all he thought about was his college applications (so I had to reread to convince myself he was affected by the images).

I think, in his teen years, he had managed to develop a mechanism to cope with things that emotionally disturb him. He made a plan for his future and whenever something would cause him discomfort he would redirect his thought process to that plan/his goals thus shutting down his own emotions.

So yes, I agree that he doesn’t want to feel. That’s why I felt that his inability to connect with another person emotionally is controlled.

Re: The interview – to be honest AH succeeded in not making me jump straight to the conclusion that Doug is gay because he was having sex with Nate. Not putting a label on Doug didn’t bother me really. I felt that Doug’s sexual orientation wasn’t important for the events in the book. I think it was even mentioned a couple of times that he barely even thought about sex.

I think for Doug sex was about power. Just like his job. Like everything he did actually.

In all the sex scenes I didn’t see Doug experiencing pleasure where Nate definitely did (I think the author did this on purpose). Maybe I’m missing something but the whole ‘relationship’ between Doug and Nate was more about Nate’s character arc for me. Like the interviewer asked, for me it was about would Nate survive it?

I see what AH was aiming at with the doppelganger but I don’t think Nate’s presence or the lack of it would’ve changed the course of events for Doug. So coming from that I share your opinion that the relationship was not very convincing.

As for Nate – I’m not sure what the author meant when he said he was afraid to show Nate’s desire. Personally I didn’t see anything scary in what Nate wanted. Could it be because we’ve already read plenty of gay fiction/mm romance? He wrote the book in 2008 – I think the acceptance of the genre has grown significantly in these 7 years. (hide spoiler)]

I hope this makes sense. Read your comment just before going to bed so my brain is half asleep :)

@Carol, Sofia – I read your comments on Doug, too. I have thoughts on Doug’s views of weakness, the importance of his past, and the house but will write more tomorrow.

Good night :)

[Sofia]

@Dani - many interesting points you make, some of whom I had said my pieces further up. Thanks for the interview bit.

I'm with Maya, re labelling, which is something I find confining generally. (view spoiler)[ I can't really label Doug as gay or bi or even straight for that matter. Sex is more power/control to him . (hide spoiler)]

I found interesting your discussion about the relationship (D & N). (view spoiler)[I'm tempted to say what 'relationship' because was it really. It sure was a strange one, fuelled by Nate (and his want (not love) want) and passively accepted by Doug and then used by him for get what he needed to fight Charlotte. So if AH wanted to portrait a strange, lopsided, dysfunctional relationship, oh yes he did that. I tried to compare it to the relationship Nate had with Charlotte (setting aside the sex) but even though he was the one that went to Charlotte, it still felt different, as if Charlotte participated willingly in it, it felt more like a two way, happy to see each other relationship. (hide spoiler)]

In a way Charlotte was like Doug, (view spoiler)[alone, but she lived this differently. Yes her upbringing was different and that showed it's results. I got to thinking about Doug last night and I imagined a little baby/boy (very self centered - all little ones are) and he had nobody to teach him to interact to see that he was not the centre of the universe. Usually Mums or the main caregivers are the ones who teach us that. All the memories of his Mum he mentions are of waiting for his Mum to call him, or going for his Mum etc. So all that came after got built on that. So what Carol said about it being hard to discern and discard makes sense. (hide spoiler)]

[Maya]

I found the interview Dani mentioned above, too. Here's the link: http://threeguysonebook.com/interview...

I found some things about Charlotte and Henry in it that I hadn't thought about before.

Also, it's interesting that AH says in the first drafts he didn't have Nate in mind when writing Doug. What happened between them came much later in his drafts, and I think that kind of shows in the final book too.

[Sofia]

Maya wrote: "I found the interview Dani mentioned above, too. Here's the link: http://threeguysonebook.com/interview...

I found some things about Charlotte and Henry in it that I hadn't thought..."

Good Morning Maya - going to read that interview during my break - thanks for the link :D

If N was an afterthought, D did treat him as such :)

[Maya]

Morning :D



We had a good storm early this morning so I finally can breathe normally. Hope you all have a good day :)

[Carol]

I am a little bit sick, got my wisdom teeth pulled out yesterday and it is starting to catch up with me. But you raised so many interesting questions and I am definitely going to read this interview, looks really interesting! Catch up with you later! ;) and have a good day as well, Maya (and everyone) :).

[Sofia]

Poor Carol :( hopefully you'll be up to battling dragons soon.

Good interview Maya. He says that we think or read through the filter of our own prejudices. So true. We will probably all read the interview and each of us will see it differently. Interesting that he created the characters seperate from each other and then the interactions. It shows i think in that each character is really fleshed out regardless of the interaction.

Good news about your storm. We are in the need of another one :)

[Maya]

@Carol, I hope you feel better soon.

@Sofia - yeah, I found the interview very interesting too. Seeing 'behind the curtains' usually reveals nuances in the story that I have missed. I think he did an excellent job with all characters, including the supporting ones like Evelyn, Holland's wife, and Nate's friends. It's just - I don't know if Doug's story would have been that much different if Doug and Nate hadn't interacted.

[Maya]

also, more messy thoughts on Doug:

(view spoiler)[So, I’ve been trying to figure out why I felt so much sympathy for Doug. It’s mostly, I think, what we all have already mentioned - that he doesn’t want to feel. I find this incredibly sad.

For me the most emotional scene in the book was Doug’s visit to his mother. His shock that she had built a better life, his admission that he had imagined saving her – these tugged at my heart.

I read in a review that Doug joined the Navy because he was tired of his mother. I didn’t see it this way. My impression was that it was the lack of connection between them (because she didn’t want to have one) that chased him away. I’d even call it a rejection on her part. I thought this was when he figured that looking for intimacy and not receiving it made him weak. So he replaced that with ambition.

I remember when I was reading Part 1 I kept wondering why he had to build the house so close to where he grew up. Why even go back there. That he subconsciously did this for his mother and could not find the strength to visit her during the year they were practically neighbors broke my heart a little.

----

His relationship with Nate – I do think that Nate managed to make a crack in Doug’s shell. Agreeing to take him to the hotel in Boston proved as much, the last chapter even more so. But I’m afraid that wouldn’t have been enough for Doug to want to dig deeper even if he didn’t have to flee the country. So in the end I didn’t have any hope for Doug. :( (hide spoiler)]

[Sofia]

The next question will be will the crack repair itself or will it continue to open?



it is left a bit in the open this question (view spoiler)[(vide the Nate sightings at the end> (hide spoiler)]

[Apeiron]

Finished!

And holy shit. This was amazing.

I'm gonna open all your spoilers now, but about the lambda:

(view spoiler)[ Haven't they been known to nominate books whose only claim on an lgbt label was that the author was not straight?

But even if no, for Nate the relationship with Doug was definitely a critical experience that pushed him to make a choice between self-destruction and perseverance. That last scene with Alex was powerful. I'm in awe. (hide spoiler)]

[Apeiron]

And since I'm already here, I just want to say that sometimes I really really want to troll some people :[

This seems to be the book that attracted the most oblivious and simple-minded reviewers I've ever seen. Like, how the hell did those people find it? Was it book of the month in Cosmo? The amount of low ratings explained by hilariously clueless blubbering about
- slow pacing
- unlikable characters
- lack of morally and politically didactic conclusion
- complicated prose and financial jargon
- lack of entertainment value
... WHAT? That's why you one-star a book? Because it's challenging?

I don't remember the last time when I wanted so say this, even though this is the lowest of lows of arguments and I swore to never say it, but:

Maybe you're just too stupid to understand it? Don't take it out on the book.

[Apeiron]

Carol wrote: "I am a little bit sick, got my wisdom teeth pulled out yesterday and it is starting to catch up with me. But you raised so many interesting questions and I am definitely going to read this intervie..."

Aww Carol, I'm sorry you're suffering so. Hope you have good medication on hand. Get well soon!

[Maya]

Apeiron wrote: "And since I'm already here, I just want to say that sometimes I really really want to troll some people :[

This seems to be the book that attracted the most oblivious and simple-minded reviewers I..."


Haven't read any of the negative reviews and now I won't.
But I am not surprised that a book with unlikable characters has a low average rating.

How can I brighten your mood? Would a relaxing massage help? xx

[Apeiron]

Haha Maya you always know what I need :D wait, is that massage oil on the floor in that gif?

and my mood is already great thanks to this book, but thank you <3

[Apeiron]

Pssst, do we still need spoiler tags? ;)


Sofia wrote: "Jumping in Carol re your spoiler #74

I often think of why we are the way we are and the way forward. Yes D had a reason for the way he was but is that enough of a reason for him to stay that way?..."

Sofia, remember the scene where Charlotte and Doug talked at the 4th of July party? She gave him this Rorschach test:

“I wonder, Mr. Fanning. If you were to see a lone soldier fighting an army, what would you think of him? That he is a fool? Or that he simply believes in his cause?”

“Neither. I’d say he was going to lose.”

“Right. Because that matters more than anything to you, doesn’t it? Dominance. That’s the childish pleasure you people can’t get enough of."

So you made me think about that scene and about how for Doug it's not that he's choosing to do the morally wrong thing, or he makes excuses for his shitty actions blaming it on his childhood. (That's what Nate does) I think he really believes what he does is right, so he doesn't even think he should need an excuse. For him, the right thing is always to win.

As to my views, I agree with you. People are responsible for dealing with their issues and not taking them out on others. But lack of parenting can really screw up your judgement and emotional capacity. I don't remember the book mentioning how his non-parent influences (his uncle, cousin and a childhood friend) shaped him as a person. Maybe he didn't have any role models until he joined the army?

Also, I can't figure this out: did Doug have sex with his mother? O_o in the chapter where he visits her, he remembers a moment when he was sweaty and shirtless and his mom looked at him, her only romance. Is that what it meant?

[Maya]

I'll add a note in the first comment in the thread that there are spoilers below so we don't need to tag any more :)

Apeiron wrote: "Also, I can't figure this out: did Doug have sex with his mother? O_o in the chapter where he visits her, he remembers a moment when he was sweaty and shirtless and his mom looked at him, her only romance. Is that what it meant? "

It crossed my mind because he said this memory was the reason for not calling her all this time but I don't think so. I think it was the alcohol speaking.

[Apeiron]

Dani wrote: "I love all our topics.

Warning, thought vomit ahead!

First off, I always find emotionally avoidant, narcissistic characters very fascinating.
Doug, I think, crosses the threshold to sligthly pat..."

Dani, thanks for bringing up that interview, it's super interesting.

As to the question of gay, bi, vulnerability etc. I *think* he might mean how he writes about homosexuality in a non-romantic way. There's no love, the attraction is either purely physical or about selfish needs and projections.

I noticed about myself something that I didn't use to understand. When I read romance, I usually don't feel the "love" or the attraction. I get heart-flutters about people helping their lovers overcome their own flaws, about unconditional devotion and things that are not about the 'romantic' parts of romance. The heaving bosoms, the heart thumping, the need to be with each other all the time, the desperation to possess. The D/N relationship is totally devoid of those things. It's not about their togetherness, I don't think even Nate was ever in love. It's about finding an outlet for each of them's personal needs. And I never thought Doug was gay. Everything he did with Nate really was about Doug's needs/curiosity/whatever and, in the immortal words of Randy Harrison, with Nate as a semi-willing prop.

And it's interesting that at one moment during sex Doug said "relax, I'm not going to rape you." Because for Doug this was about power, for Nate about powerlessness and their relationship was based on undisclosed motivations, which someone might argue makes the consent questionable. Words. They're funny.

[Sofia]

Aperion
Doug is totally focused on the result yes, no question of right or wrong. Same with how he uses sex.

I thought about his outside influences but they seem negligible and he was to old for the navy to be a role model, not a moral one anyway. The way things played out how the navy handled the airline debacle was a training ground for how he was to handle stuff in his,banking career, deniablity, supremacy etc.

I did not get that sexual feel, rather a sort of him becoming the man of the house. His deciding to not tell her was payback plus a cry for her to seek him out which she never did. He was really fucked up in his parents, both absent. A person not acknowleding you by talking is really annihilating, makes you feel non existant.

Your troll comment, if the book is so bad how come we have not stopped chattering about it :)

Charlotte's final parry, she chose how to go, made me sad but also respectful, she was not only words.

[Sofia]

Next step :)