Shelfie - Get free and discounted Ebooks of your print or paper books

[Eric]

So far I haven't found much. Out of hundreds of books I own, two were available for $2 each.

[Ben]

I've used this for a handful of books and have been pretty happy. Unfortunately, I think big publishers are reluctant to try something like this. That said, Tor/Forge books are here, as are (I think) Ace. There are also some good smaller publishers like Angry Robot and Evil Hat. I've been using them not only to get ebook versions of some of my favorites, but with the hope that some success will lead more publishers to sign on.

[Eric]

Nice. I don't have anything from Tor that I didn't already buy digitally. Frankly, the publishers should start doing like Vinyl or Audio CDs on Amazon where they give you the digital free when you buy the physical.

[Ben]

Eric wrote: "Nice. I don't have anything from Tor that I didn't already buy digitally. Frankly, the publishers should start doing like Vinyl or Audio CDs on Amazon where they give you the digital free when you ..."

Yeah, I physical/digital bundles were more common. I'm pretty sure Angry Robot does that through their website. Also, there's a group--called Bits and Mortar--of indie RPG publishers and FLGSs that try to encourage bundles as well as supporting local businesses.

[Rick]

The issue for bundles is this - it values the ebook at nothing. There are several issues with that:

1) people like me buy the ebooks as our only edition - why should you get the same ebook I pay for for free?
2) it continues the rather silly idea that the majority of the value of a book is in the physical artifact (I'm talking regular books, not special editions, etc). Isn't the value in the story, i.e the writing (and editing in its various forms)?
3) Only about 20% of the cover price of a book is the physical production and associated costs (shipping, warehousing).

[Ben]

Rick wrote: "The issue for bundles is this - it values the ebook at nothing. There are several issues with that:

1) people like me buy the ebooks as our only edition - why should you get the same ebook I pay ..."

I can see both sides. I prefer to read in ebook form and buy them at regular prices. But some publishers and authors feel that they should be bundled together and they're the ones making those decisions.

I also like that I can take my Gene Wolfe books that I've already read a few times and use an app like shelfie to get the ebook for just a few bucks.

[Rick]

Oh I like that I can get ebooks for an extra, discounted price if I've already bought the paper books - I just got the app.

You're right that publishers can do what they want. However, most have already set the precedent that ebooks are worth money in their own right so I think it would be hard to effectively discount them in bundles from now on. Setting aside my annoyance, I think they feel they'd be leaving money on the table. But this appeals to me since I have about 1000 paper books. If I can get some of those in electronic form for a reasonable price I'm in.

[Eric]

Rick wrote: "Oh I like that I can get ebooks for an extra, discounted price if I've already bought the paper books - I just got the app.

You're right that publishers can do what they want. However, most have ..."

I think it should be free because the cost of a book should be payment to the author. If they typed it up, it's electronic already - they use a file to make the physical book. So making an EPUB of that file should be free. Therefore, if I buy it as a physical book I shouldn't have to buy it again as an EPUB. Best example of this is Kickstarters. If you get the physical book, you get the ebook too. One is for looking pretty on your shelf and one is for being able to take on a plane with hundreds of other books on a phone or ebook reader.

[John (Taloni)]

Publishers are going to have to learn to accommodate the digital era or be dragged into it kicking and screaming. With so many users on kindle (or other ebook) the cost of distribution is negligible. Amazon has been changing its borrow policies around and it seems clear to me that they are concerned about making the value proposition good enough that people won't turn to piracy.

[Rick]

Eric wrote: "Rick wrote: "Oh I like that I can get ebooks for an extra, discounted price if I've already bought the paper books - I just got the app.

You're right that publishers can do what they want. Howeve..."

No. The idea that a book is just what the author typed is utterly wrong. Go read: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-....

Also, should audio books be free if you bought the hardback? If not, why not... you already paid for it. To anticipate the narration cost argument... fine, toss a few dollars at the narrator. But that narration alone doesn't justify the full price of the book again. So your argument boils down to "I should only ever have to pay for a book once no matter how many formats I buy it in." IN fact, you should be able to buy additional hardbacks at a steep discount because you've already paid for the story, right?

John (Taloni) wrote: "Publishers are going to have to learn to accommodate the digital era or be dragged into it kicking and screaming. With so many users on kindle (or other ebook) the cost of distribution is negligibl..."

And the percentage of a book's price that covers these is ALSO negligible (about 10-20%).

Seriously people, learn a bit about what goes into creating a professionally published book otherwise you sound naive to anyone who knows this stuff and it's really hard to take your points seriously.

[Eric]

Rick wrote: "Eric wrote: "Rick wrote: "Oh I like that I can get ebooks for an extra, discounted price if I've already bought the paper books - I just got the app.

You're right that publishers can do what they..."

Your argument falls apart when you talk about anything physical. Of course I shouldn't get more hardbacks for discount. Those cost something to make. Digital, essentially, does not.

[Ben]

I've been spending some time recently poking around ebooks and learning how to do some decent layout and design. It's certainly not the same as just dumping text to an ereader, and, to me, it's far preferable.

I've read some plain text dumps, but once I get past the short fiction stage, I really get peeved when ebooks I've bought have been designed poorly.

All that's to say that there's value for me in also compensating the people involved in the technical side of books--the stuff that applies to both eBooks and treeBooks between the author stage and the printing stage.

If authors and/or publishers want to bundle books, I think it makes sense. Maybe the bundle could be a base price for the core processing cost, additional x percent for the physical book, additional x percent for whatever minimal cost there is for ebook distribution, additional x percent to cover audiobook production, etc.

A customizable bundle with a base cost and add-ons, in other words.

[Eric]

Ben wrote: "I've been spending some time recently poking around ebooks and learning how to do some decent layout and design. It's certainly not the same as just dumping text to an ereader, and, to me, it's far..."

You speak truth. But I wonder how much physical book layout carries over to EPUB layout. It certainly can't be starting from scratch again. If it is, then I see room for someone to create some software that pushes out to all formats.

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter too much with me. I'm going to buy ebooks because my shelves are full. But if there were beautiful hard covers I'd be willing to make some space for it - as long as the price of that beautiful hardcover included a free ebook.

[Ben]

Rick wrote: "3) Only about 20% of the cover price of a book is the physical production and associated costs (shipping, warehousing)."

I've been thinking about this. Doesn't this percentage depend highly on how successful the book is? I mean, if editors, layout artists, etc. are payed a flat fee once, wouldn't physical costs percentage go up as more physical copies are printed and distributed?

[Rick]

Eric wrote: "Your argument falls apart when you talk about anything physical. Of course I shouldn't get more hardbacks for discount. Those cost something to make. Digital, essentially, does not.
n..."

Again, LEARN. My argument, unlike yours, is grounded in the reality of the process - making and distributing the physical item is about 20% of the cover price. So using your logic, I should be able to buy additional copies for about that percentage of the cover price.

[Eric]

Cover price? The price no one ever pays for a book?

[Rick]

Ben wrote: "I've been thinking about this. Doesn't this percentage depend highly on how successful the book is? I mean, if editors, layout artists, etc. are payed a flat fee once, wouldn't physical costs percentage go up as more physical copies are printed and distributed?
..."

Not that much. A publisher had contracts with printers that cover their entire line so costs get amortized over the run for the full line of the publisher's books. There are setup costs of course, but those are relatively minor. Is there some variation? Probably. But the publisher gauges interest, tries to avoid buying novels that they don't think will sell, etc.

All that's to say that there's value for me in also compensating the people involved in the technical side of books--the stuff that applies to both eBooks and treeBooks between the author stage and the printing stage.

Don't forget the copy editing and other editing that is done. Author going on a book tour? Factor that in. Sales people talking to bookstores? etc etc

Seriously, people... go read http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-... for an overview of what goes into making a book.

[John (Taloni)]

Rick wrote: "Seriously people, learn a bit about what goes into creating a professionally published book otherwise you sound naive to anyone who knows this stuff and it's really hard to take your points seriously."

I'm puzzled how you arrive at the conclusion I don't know the market. If you want to get technical, the marginal cost to deliver the ebook is negligible - a few cents. If the user has purchased a physical copy, then the cost of editing, proofreading and cover are already included. The purchaser has already paid.

The biggest cost for a book is the printing and distribution. Take both out of the equation and books are a lot cheaper. Traditional publishing houses don't like this. There are newer, digital only imprints that happily sell books at $3.99 for ebook. Traditional publishers can live in reality or see their market share erode.

[Eric]

Rick Wrote:'m puzzled how you arrive at the conclusion I don't know the market. If you want to get technical, the marginal cost to deliver the ebook is negligible - a few cents. If the user has purchased a physical copy, then the cost of editing, proofreading and cover are already included. The purchaser has already paid.

Heh, you made the eloquent version of the argument I was trying to make, but a bit distracted to lay it out like that. Thanks.

[David]

I think there is a natural tension that relates to the supply/demand principle it seems that is being circled around here.

Quite simply, the publisher (who acts as advocate for authors and takes on much behind the scenes risk) with traditional printing (AND ebook printing, don't mistake the simplicity for the lack of intellectual property that gets involved) VERSUS the reality that in the technology space, consumers have a very real say.

This is a good thing - so on the one hand, most people will pay EVEN IF they have it in another format (think movies/tv shows - people have netflix AND rent/buy DVD/BluRay) - but that will have an appreciable cost on what people feel is fair TO pay if they have it in another format AND if it is just easier to "pirate".

I think the people looking to profit are seeing the writing on the wall (pun intended) and as with music's approaches (the plethora of music choices are all internet based by and large vs traditional media based), and books are even easier than music in this way.

Perhaps it's more of a marketing/packaging question than a real profit vs cost question. I'd buy a book with a marginal upcharge if it came with the electronic version. I'd pay a normal (but lesser) fee for the ebook ONLY. And this should drive publishing prices down because people will eventually forego the huge relative costs of hardcovers.

Now this has a natural tension against the publisher's business model because they want to print MORE books from a printing cost perspective (volume would drive cost per unit down).

All in all, understanding the natural tension is simple, but just goes to show that where the rubber hits the road is more complicated.