The Dyatlov Pass Mystery discussion
This topic is about
DON'T GO THERE
Svetlana Oss. Don't Go There: a solution to the Dyatlov Pass Mystery.
date
newest »
newest »
Just finished reading your book Svetlana. It is an engaging read, well written, well documented. Liked the diary based narratives in the beginning. I loved the rational approach you have taken and for the most part tried to keep up with your line of reasoning. And when i got the drift that (view spoiler), I was eager to see how you would explain away the radioactive clothing. About Dubinina's tongue - i thought it would be the fish or other water based animals that might have eaten away her tongue/oral cavity. I will have to re-read your forensic evidence arguing against that (i guess it is about how neatly it was scooped out without damaging the skin tissue which would be impossible for fish).All in all, it is a very refreshing approach you have taken. But yours is the only non-fiction book i have read on the topic. I agree with your surmise that, in the real world, the explanation that makes more sense might generally be the most simplest one.
Having said that i did enjoy the movie too. I am sure they haven't been (or didn't intend to be) disrespectful of the incident or the victims. For most of the entertaining thrillers, the base is generally a real incident that happened somewhere out there. The movie is made to satisfy the thrill seeking parts of our minds, while your book satisfies the rational part of my mind. Am glad both exist.
Mod
Svetlana, the tongue mutilation is the core issue. You say it isn't, but it is critical. Richard D. Hall (Richplanet TV) and David Cayton cover this issue. This tongue was not eaten by a predator, it was most likely surgically removed. John Wantling, Rochdale UFOs AND NATO The Human Mutilation Cover Up 1 OF 6https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBIk...
Mod
Svetlana, look at the facts, this is all in your book… what finally managed to break so many ribs in one blow without leaving any bruising; tongue and eyes missing from some of the corpses; the diaphragm of the mouth and tongue were absent, the upper edge of the sublingual bone was bared; where could (the tongue) go? He shrugged his shoulders. It seemed to me he was depressed and even scared; died in an unpleasant mysterious way; its shown the damage to Tibo’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall, jettisoning of the body; this kind of trauma could have occurred if he had been rigorously thrown and fallen and hit against rocks, ice, etc.; a severe concussion to the brain; an unconscious state; action of a large force; calamity of overwhelming force; a very strong, but completely unknown, form of energy (Ivanov); staring into some hellish world of its own where normal logic ceases to apply; there was something scary that not only alarmed him, but also made all the others leave the tent urgently; they were scared, possibly holding each other by the hand in darkness; there was an energy we did now know, an energy that was beyond human strength (Ivanov); the force acted selectively and was directed at those who were still alive (Ivanov). John Wantling, Rochdale
Svetlana, look at the facts, flying spheres; I questioned many eyewitnesses who saw this UFO in the sub-polar Urals; this UFO was moving noiselessly in the direction of the Northern Ural Mountains (Ivanov); the real cause of the death of people was an Unidentified Flying Object, although I hid this in my final conclusion, by using the words ‘an impact of an overwhelming force’ (Ivanov); the Mansi, drew strange round and oval orbits; not caused by human beings.So the investigation’s statement that the students perished as a result of an ‘overwhelming force’ was a merit of Ivanov; Ivanov is a major figure in the investigation into the mystery of the Dyatlov group makes his interview of a great importance. So Ivanov knew the cause, but he could not say it, so he called it an ‘overwhelming force’. There is another youtube film on the yeti (Russian Yeti - The Killer Lives) and in that film a Mansi says that deer have been found minus tongue, so this missing tongue phenomenon is nothing new. It is a worldwide phenomenon. I am not sure, but do you know if Lyuda's brain was missing? I am guessing but it may have been missing too. John Wantling, Rochdale
Mod
Of course, if we put together what Ivanov has written in his later article and the fireballs observed in the sky at that period of time, we may assume that they are somehow related to the murder. But any guess of the nature of these almost surreal objects, including UFO, is confronted by a pretty clear evidence of the autopsy reports that there was a fight. It implies that the attackers were visible for the group and had flesh. As the forensic pathologist wrote, ‘[Rustem’s] fingers are clenched into a fist. In the area of the wrist joint of the hand there is a graze wound protruding from the soft tissue in an area 8 x 1.5 cm in size covered in dry parchment-density crust under the layer of skin.’ In other words, the knuckles on both hands were skinned and had ‘scabbed over’. There are also marks of a trivial beating on the face of Doroshenko: "The upper lip is swollen. Around the vermilion border of the upper lip, there is a 1.5 x 2 cm dark red haemorrhage". All the 5 had these marks, and it is not my opinion but comments from an expert.
I am not sure that we have to try to compare the injuries of the group with the examples of the alleged body mutilations in different cases - the similarity is not a way to proove anything. If we go in this direction, there are also evidences of foreign espionage in the Ural area, and there is even a book of Russian writer Alexey Rakitin where the reader can find many examples of how so called NOC (agents) infiltrated the region and on the basis of this (not this only, of course) the author makes a conclusion that the group was killed by trained professionals who worked for foreign intelligent services. One is free to make comparisons of course but it is not the way to prove anything.
My guess is that Dubinina and Semyon would have been drained of blood. The brain may have been removed as well as other internal organs but my guess is that this was all covered up, If you have viewed UFOs AND NATO film by Richard D, Hall and David Cayton, then it leaves little doubt that this was a paranormal event. Ivanov was right, Yakimov was right. How can there be a fight if no other footprints were found? That is impossible. No chance of trained professionals. John Wantling, Rochdale
Wow, I really liked this book. It's the second I read about the subject, the first was Donnie Eichar's Dead Mountain - but I tought the infrasound theory was simply unlikely. Not as unlikely as Discovery Channel's yeti theory, but still unlikely. (By the way, it was funny, recently I heard an interview with Mike Libecki, and he was almost apologizing for the russian yet documentary movie - saying, that even he doesn't believe it was a yeti, the editors made a terrible job with his investigation movie, and he thinks the accident has to do something with the military.) After reading Don't go there I don't know what to think: the author made an extensive research and she gave a very convincing solution in the end. One part of me believes it. The other doesn't. But maybe the other part of me simply doesn't believe it because it's so fond of for the mistery and the mystical.Anyhow, very good book - I hope if new evidence emerges about the hunter and the sold gun for example, a follow up book will come or any update - and the mistery will be solved forever for real. Ha, my other part's not gonna like that I bet.
Zoltan, if you have not read Keith McCloskey's book, then do so, and concentrate on the Yakimov chapter. I believe that Keith McCloskey is writing another book. I think that this will throw more light on this issue. Here is a link... Richard D. Hall is well worth your time. John Wantling, Rochdale UFOs AND NATO The Human Mutilation Cover Up 1 OF 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBIk...
John wrote: "Zoltan, if you have not read Keith McCloskey's book, then do so, and concentrate on the Yakimov chapter. I believe that Keith McCloskey is writing another book. I think that this will throw more li..."Hi!
Thanks, I'm reading Keith McCloskey's book now - to be honest, I jumped to the famous Yakimov chapter first, but I'll start the book from the beginning some time. It's good to hear, he's writing a nother book - I have listened to an interview with him last week, he knows a lot about the case.
Also the Svetlana Oss interview is great too:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB0hc...
Cheers.
Zoltan wrote: "Wow, I really liked this book. It's the second I read about the subject, the first was Donnie Eichar's Dead Mountain - but I tought the infrasound theory was simply unlikely. Not as unlikely as Dis..."i also heard Mikes interview and he there says that this part re the negative is true( but its not a Yeti) and McCloskey and Wilkins both have confirmed that the photo is real and that the negative is in the Archives and indeed M had an expert photoanalyst study the print and she claims its legit ...... it doesnt mean its a Yeti though ( and in Ms case the chain of evidence needs to be investigated,though i assume he has done this) If not though who will be walking through the woods without a rucksack,rifle or skis and why would a hunter have somone else carry his stuff or why would one of the tourists take a picture of one of their group doing this.....? With Svetlana as you will know her case is that the chest injuries especially ,on 3 of them, inc Dos,show that hunters under the influence jumped on their chest which could be said to imply that Khanty hunters had a very good knowledge of forensic medecine in that such injuries might be difficult to interpret and so provide them cover ..... she also would have it that Rustem received a very dynamic kick to the head to leave extensive wounds to both temple areas both being somewhat hard to accept face value as well as the ability of hunters to infuse tear gas into a tent without someone smothering it but maybe someone had in fact been seized outside when urinating, though Khantis speak no Russian but one supposes gestures at knife-point might have been convincing.On the other hand if killing by jumping was a well-established Khanty tradition she could have made more of this as well as looking in more detail at what fly agaric in fact does.
Her strongest point is imo though that Dys tentshoes and fur coat were found well away from the tent( along with a tarpaulin) and it is hard to see how he could have dropped these essential items without recovering them so it does look as if he was made to discard them ........... but the photo remains-her book was written i believe before this was properly published and i know that M is now including it in far more detail in his new book and on his website.... sadly we will never fully know the context of that photo but to speculate ,its movement does strongly infer that the tourist who took it realising they were being stalked from a parallel course within the woodline quietly held back to allow the stalker to briefly emerge when the photo was taken before it returned to stealth mode and retreated back into the trees. ( McLoskey who has handled the print confirms this is his impression too and one of muscularity and strength).This would also explain their choice of campsite away from the treeline. The US Sasquatch often behaves in similar stalk mode and has infrasound capabilities( many sane and stable believers who go out searching dont like to believe this) and is so fast and agile over bad terrain inc snow and ice that experienced hunters often regret their lack of caution over choice of weapon and through overconfidence.Police and Forest rangers usually deliberately misreport such deaths as " bear attack" under threat of dismissal as huge money involved in outdoor activities,lumber,mining etc .Just after inquiries were finished the Russian Snowman Commission was closed down and the area was banned to tourists for 3 years
Mod
Kenneth wrote: "Zoltan wrote: "Wow, I really liked this book. It's the second I read about the subject, the first was Donnie Eichar's Dead Mountain - but I tought the infrasound theory was simply unlikely. Not as ..."Kenneth, if you are referring to the famous frame №17, to tell you the truth, I never felt that picture is a mistery:
http://dyatlov-pass.com/resources/340...
It was shot right after this pic:
http://dyatlov-pass.com/resources/340...
So same guy just out of focus I think.
well im sticking with Keith who wrote me his personal impressions of the photo having handled the print and having had it properly analysed...as being those of stealth,strength,agility and surprise that someone had spotted him/her/it.... but i dont insist its a Yeti though perhaps someone here is about to ask if Sasquatch etc exist, wheres the dead body lol ?? I would also agree that Sasquatch may not always be aggressive but imo its not too sensible to want to find out, and are way less likely to attack a group, and kill usually by twisting the head to break the neck/slightly different with deer.Can this be anthropologically equated with the Yeti? Maybe its of some value? If Svetlana could add some greater detail into the "Khanty" ritual of jumping on folk - and there was a recent prosecution of a Shaman defending his sacred lake from oil developers( they arent too keen on fracking too i hear) - and even has more evidence regarding the Khanty owner of a rifle who admitted involvement( under investigation when her book was released) i might relegate the Yeti theory in favour of hers which is way more impressive than the others inc Keiths imo, especially re the finding of Dys gear outside the tent. Yes,it seems v likely he was wearing his tent shoes and i feel the Yeti theory can only stand up if he was carrying them.....
Mod
It was actually my article in The Moscow Times (2008) that has reverberated around the world outside Russia, spawning books, films and blogs about the case.
This book is a result of retracing my original investigations back to Dyatlov’s hometown. Packed with a wealth of original material and authentic glimpses of Russian life in the 1950's under an austere regime it de-bags trendy theories and exposes the reality which communist policy could not allow to emerge. This is also the first book in English to reveal the original autopsy reports and in fact the only really forensic book on the subject. Here one can find human insight into the personality of one of the climbing team and a visceral explanation of why her dead body was missing the tongue.
The title Don’t Go There! suggests a forbidden territory which the students entered. Whose territory was it and what was so-called “overwhelming force” that killed the group in such a puzzling way? The answer is an exciting journey that reveals how the supernatural force that was capable of breaking eight ribs in a single blow without bruises had an extraordinary natural origin.
I have commented about Dyatlov Pass for BBC and Coast to Coast AM Radio. Hollywood scriptwriter Bragi Shute, the UK author Keith McCloskey and others sought consultation on the subject.