Faust - Preliminaries

[Kathy]

Wendel wrote:

Here is a link to the Faust movie by Franz Murnau: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbtTM... (1 h 45 m - I'll watch it after finishing the book)."

That one is in German and Portugese, or so google translate told me. Here's the same movie with English subtitles. From what I read, there are some differences between the original German version and the U.S. version, but since I neither read nor speak German, I'll have to watch the U.S. one. Like you, I'll wait until I've finished the book before watching it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Flnxq...

[Nicola]

Mary wrote: "I'm curious -- have any of you read Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus?"


I did at university oh so many years ago. I watched the movie with Burton/Taylor as well.

[Chris]

I watched the movie with Burton/Taylor as well.

Oh, I'll have to check that out at some point!

[Thomas]

Any thoughts on the opera adaptations? I will confess that I am more or less a philistine when it comes to opera, but I've listened to both Gounod's and Berlioz's operas and enjoyed them both. I haven't gone much further than a casual listen, but I'm curious if others have thoughts on these.

There is also Busoni's Doktor Faust. That's one I haven't been able to lay my hands on.

[[deleted user]]

Not an opera, but I would include Mahler's Eighth Symphony (The Symphony of a Thousand) the second half of which uses the second part of Faust.

[Mishek]

I would add Liszt's Faust Symphony. Well worth a listen.

[Ashley]

Mary wrote: "I'm curious -- have any of you read Christopher Marlowe's Doctor Faustus?"

Hi all- Sorry to be joining late but glad to be joining nonetheless. I have read Marlowe's version, Mary, and enjoyed it very much. Obvious upfront differences include the fact that Marlowe's version is considered a tragedy, while I at least am finding Goethe to be very humorous. Also, the Job-esque deal between God and the devil is not included in Marlowe.

I found a blog that compares some different versions. Be warned(!) I felt a little plot spoiler...
http://imaginingtheworld.blogspot.com...

[Ashley]

Apparently I have been reading a lot of dramatic verse lately. I know poetic form aides actors in the memorization of Shakespeare's plays, but TS Eliot felt there were distinct disadvantages to actual performance of plays in verse. I was curious if anyone here sees any particular advantages or disadvantages to composing/performing plays in poetic form? For those of you that have seen film versions of Faust, did they attempt to keep poetic integrity? (I'll hunt some versions down after I finish reading.) How did it effect you as an audience? Has anyone seen Faust performed live?

[Nemo]

Ashley wrote: "Apparently I have been reading a lot of dramatic verse lately. I know poetic form aides actors in the memorization of Shakespeare's plays, but TS Eliot felt there were distinct disadvantages actual performance of plays in verse."

What was Eliot's rationale?

I would think that performing plays in verse is not for everyone, just as performing in operatic form is not for everyone either. The former requires poetic sensibility and the latter musical talent, among other things. Memorization is the relatively easy part.

[Ashley]

Nemo wrote: "What was Eliot's rationale?

I would think that performing plays in verse is not for everyone, just as performing in operatic form is not for everyone either. The former requires poetic sensibility and the latter musical talent, among other things. Memorization is the relatively easy part. "

Unfortunately, Nemo, I've returned my Eliot resources to the library and I can't quote as accurately as I'd like. In a brief internet search I find that Eliot wrote plays in part to reach a larger audience, but may have been concerned about the wide potential for errors (such as come with live performance) that could detract from the message of the play(s).

Those who were critical of Eliot's plays said that they were lifeless and still (though not everyone felt this way). One of the bigger problems with Eliot's drama is that they aren't very active. Which sort of speaks to the obscurity of Eliot's style.

From Hugh Kenner's The Invisible Poet: TS Eliot: "Eliot's great dramatic problem is that the distinctions he wishes to dramatize do not terminate in distinct actions, but in the same action." "In the finished plays, though the plot gets more accomplished, the action is either aborted or unintelligible. Can you tell me what happens in The Family Reunion?... For that matter can you tell me what happens in Prufrock?"

[Nemo]

Ashley wrote: "...the distinctions he wishes to dramatize do not terminate in distinct actions, but in the same action"

"In my beginning is my end". Indeed.

I guess great poetry cannot be visualized, at least not in an ordinary way.

[Clarissa]

Ashley wrote: "Apparently I have been reading a lot of dramatic verse lately. I know poetic form aides actors in the memorization of Shakespeare's plays, but TS Eliot felt there were distinct disadvantages to act..."

I don't know if it was Eliot's specific problem, but I've read some critics say that the poetry takes precedence over the dramatic tension which is considered necessary for a good play. I think it was John Dryden who said that some of Shakespeare plays should only be read and never performed because it is poetry.
It is interesting having that comment ascribed to Eliot, because I thought he was critical of his contemporaries plays and wanted to revitalise verse drama with his own work, but failed?

[Thomas]

Clari wrote: "Ashley wrote: "I think it was John Dryden who said that some of Shakespeare plays should only be read and never performed because it is poetry."

I wonder what Dryden thought of Homer, whose poetry was only performed and never read, originally at least. There is a musical element of poetry that only comes out in performance, so I have some trouble with the idea that there is any poetry that is meant to be read and not performed. (Some modern poetry excepted, but even Eliot used meter to great effect.)

That's part of the problem I'm having with Faust -- I feel like I must "perform" it silently, and I'm not a very good performer. Many of the lines sound Seussian, singsongy, and I find this irritating after a page or two. Maybe it's less cloying in German, but I do wonder if a good performance would make the verse come alive in a way that it hasn't for me.

[Clarissa]

Thomas wrote: "Clari wrote: "Ashley wrote: "I think it was John Dryden who said that some of Shakespeare plays should only be read and never performed because it is poetry."

I wonder what Dryden thought of Homer..."

Maybe if you watch/listen to it rather than reading?
The experience of seeing a play is no doubt different (better?) than reading it alone. Or conversely pull in a dramatically inclined friend to take parts with you :)

[Thomas]

Clari wrote: "Maybe if you watch/listen to it rather than reading?
The experience of seeing a play is no doubt different (better?) than reading it alone. Or conversely pull in a dramatically inclined friend to take parts with you :)"

I haven't found a performance of Part 2 in translation as of yet... lots of Part 1, but Part 2 seems to be largely ignored. (Which is too bad, since I'm finding it to be more interesting -- and befuddling -- than the first part.) And so far I haven't been able to pull in a dramatically inclined friend either. I think I need a bigger hook. And maybe a tow truck.

[Lily]

Medallion of Goethe -- spotted while searching for something else tonight.

Pierre-Jean David d’Angers

Princeton University Art Collection

[Clarissa]

Lily wrote: "

Medallion of Goethe -- spotted while searching for something else tonight.

Pierre-Jean David d’Angers

Princeton University Art Collection"

thank you for sharing, Lily, when is the medallion dated from?

[Lily]

Clari wrote: "Lily wrote: "

Medallion of Goethe -- spotted while searching for something else tonight.

Pierre-Jean David d’Angers

Princeton University Art Collection"

thank you for sharing, Lily, when is the..."

Quick search: Pierre-Jean David (March 12, 1788 – January 4, 1856) was a French sculptor and medallist.

Clari -- just knew I should have linked the museum site!

Search string: http://artmuseum.princeton.edu/search...

1829

I'm not volunteering to search for info about the sources David used for creating his image! ;-0 (I do hope to visit this museum soon -- I have not previously, although it is quite near for me and has a good reputation; David apparently did a whole series of these medals, many for men whose names I do not recognize.)

(Johann Wolfgang Goethe: 28 August 1749 – 22 March 1832)

[Clarissa]

Lily wrote: "Clari wrote: "Lily wrote: "

Medallion of Goethe -- spotted while searching for something else tonight.

Pierre-Jean David d’Angers

Princeton University Art Collection"

thank you for sharing, Lil..."

Thanks for the extra information, Lily! You're very lucky to have access to such great resources.

[Lily]

Clari wrote: "Thanks for the extra information, Lily! You're very lucky to have access to such great resources. "

I am. But all the info I provided here came from the Net.

I was a member of a marketing research team in the early 1990's that looked at the interest (U.S.) for library resources. We were surprised to discover how embedded the demand was in small communities nation-wide. (Well, actually, our data was regional, but a large swath of the country.) In the years since we have all watched the Internet and the applications built upon it respond to those needs.

I enjoy playing with the capabilities now being provided online by museums, great and small, for viewing and learning about their collections. Although the experience is still inferior to visiting (in my judgment), ofttimes one can actually learn and see more virtually. (Try "Cupid and Psyche" at the Louvre, for example.)

[Mary]

Err -- do you mean "Psyche and Cupid"?

[Lily]

Mary wrote: "Err -- do you mean "Psyche and Cupid"?"

YES, thanks, Mary. I corrected in msg 71!

#11 http://www.louvre.fr/en/routes/mighty...

Ironically, tonight I don't find the wonderful walk-around panorama I have so often enjoyed.

[Lily]

Lily wrote: "Ironically, tonight I don't find the wonderful..."

Adobe Flash crashes on me these days, so I can't be sure this link still works, but a friend sent it (back) to me tonight. It at least suggests the kind of information seen previously.

http://musee.louvre.fr/oal/psyche/psy...

[Clarissa]

Lily wrote: "Lily wrote: "Ironically, tonight I don't find the wonderful..."

Adobe Flash crashes on me these days, so I can't be sure this link still works, but a friend sent it (back) to me tonight. It at le..."

you're right, Lily, although it doesn't compare to seeing things in real life (hope I get to the louvre one day), the internet is amazing if you know how to navigate it. Thought, I often find I get distracted and end up clicking such random links I forget what I originally wanted to see!

[Lily]

Clari wrote: "..I often find I get distracted and end up clicking such random links I forget what I originally wanted to see! ..."

Life is full of the needs for discipline and the opportunities of the serendipitous! :-)

[Wendel]

Here is an interpretation of Faust by a certain Alexander Gillies. A bit elaborate to my taste, but otherwise quite good. For the essentials see CliffsNotes or Cummings .

[Clarissa]

Wendel wrote: "Here is an interpretation of Faust by a certain Alexander Gillies. A bit elaborate to my taste, but otherwise quite good. For the essentials see CliffsNotes or Cummings ."

I have been working my way through the cliffnotes as I do find I need a lot explaining to me!

[Lily]

http://mysteriouswritings.com/wp-cont...



http://mysteriouswritings.com/the-mys...

The Norton edition indicates this Rembrandt etching was one source of inspiration to Goethe.

[Jeremy C. Brown]

Clari wrote: "I have been working my way through the cliffnotes as I do find I need a lot explaining to me!"

That's how I'm surviving as well. It's been almost a game to see how much I can get out of it before I go back and read the cliff notes, and then I see if I can catch a little bit more the next scene. :-) I've also been enjoying reading a section first, then cliff notes, and then one more time reading it again. Pretty revealing... :-)

[Everyman]

Lily wrote: "Life is full of the needs for discipline and the opportunities of the serendipitous! :-) "

Ain't that the truth!