Strong Prose or Strong Plot? (Feb 10/14)

[LindaJ^]

I was looking through my books this morning and was struck that on my poetry shelf were the writings of Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan and realized that that was poetry that spoke to me!

[Casceil]

Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

[Terry]

So I started reading Dominion by CJ Sansom. I knew he didn't have a rep for great prose but the premise interested me and a fancied something non challenging after Proud. I stuck with it for two hundred pages, but only because I'm stubborn. It wasn't actively bad, but the prose was just so... pedestrian. It felt like eating platefuls of mashed potato. There's plenty of plot, but I just didn't care. So I started Cold Mountain by Charles Frazier instead, and within two pages I was hooked by the way the careful and inspired prose painted the scenes and the characters. Apologies if anyone here likes CJ Sansom, this is just my opinion and I'm not singling him out, just illustrating the effects that put versus prose has on me. Even at the other extreme, prose but no plot, I'm sure I'm happier...

[Terry]

Proud = Proust.

[Terry]

Put = plot

[Pip]

Terry wrote: "So I started reading Dominion by CJ Sansom. I knew he didn't have a rep for great prose but the premise interested me and a fancied something non challenging after Proud. I stuck with it for two hu..."

I agree, Terry - Dominion was a massive letdown. Yes, the prose was dull, but I might even have overlooked that if I had cared a ha'penny about the characters. And personally, I don't think the plot was strong either; the premise, as you say, is fascinating and the first scene with Churchill was promising. It soon became too bloated for its own good, though and it was a struggle to finish (yes, I did get to the end!!). And as for the bizarre political rant in the epilogue... Just bizarre, whether you agree with the politics or not.

Having said all of this, I am a fan of CJ Sansom's Shardlake series. I'm a sucker for a DECENT historical mystery ;-)

[Pip]

BTW: I don't know how long the Question Of The Week section has been a feature here, but it's a great idea. I'm a bit late to join in the gender marketing topic, but I've loved reading the thread and the links posted. Keep the polemical questions coming!!

[Daniel]

Pip wrote: "BTW: I don't know how long the Question Of The Week section has been a feature here, but it's a great idea. I'm a bit late to join in the gender marketing topic, but I've loved reading the thread a..."

So glad to hear you're enjoying it, Pip! We've been running it for about a month now and the response is certainly making it worth the effort.

Oh, and don't worry about being too late to join in if the week has already come and gone. If you ever have something to add to discussion on a previous question, please feel free to do so!

[LindaJ^]

Terry wrote: "So I started reading Dominion by CJ Sansom. I knew he didn't have a rep for great prose but the premise interested me and a fancied something non challenging after Proud. I stuck with it for two hu..."

If you like Charles Frazier's prose, Terry, you might like that of Ron Rash.

[Terry]

Which Rash would you recommend, Linda?

[LindaJ^]

Serena is his best known novel - made into a movie - and it is quite good. But I think I'd recommend you start with One Foot in Eden, which is the first novel I read. He's also really good at short stories, so if you'd be inclined in that direction, I'd recommend Burning Bright: Stories.

[Carl]

I'm reading a collection of stories by Rash, Nothing Gold Can Stay and I love them so far. I think they may be his latest...

It's not a good idea to read any author after Proust or Proud.

[[deleted user]]

A plot line drives the action, prose is a rose garden that one must hack at with a chainsaw.

[Carl]

Greg wrote: "A plot line drives the action, prose is a rose garden that one must hack at with a chainsaw."

Ha! Action is merely a chainsaw on the nerves after enjoying a rose garden carefully crafted by Proust!

[[deleted user]]

Carl wrote: "Greg wrote: "A plot line drives the action, prose is a rose garden that one must hack at with a chainsaw."

Ha! Action is merely a chainsaw on the nerves after enjoying a rose garden carefully craf..."

I can see the enjoyment in a good long walk but I don't enjoy long walks myself.

[Theron]

Daniel wrote: "The books we read in January took two very different approaches to literary art. The Flamethrowers was more interested in the subtle nuances of language, whereas [book:The Goldfinch..."

For me, it's all about language, the art of the written word. I love when a writer, like Joyce for instance, plays around orthographically with the language of their narrative. I'm also drawn to writing in such a manner. To quote Nabokov: "Style and structure are the essence of a book; great ideas are hogwash."

[Marc]

Theron, I also tend toward the preference for strong prose, but that doesn't rule out appreciating a good story or plot. Any 21st century writers you think exemplify this type of language play or art?

[LindaJ^]

Nice to see this topic re-energized. I just reread all the comments and was reminded of why I like this group. I'm still of the mind either good prose or a good plot can make a book good. But, I find myself these days tending towards prose, although a book that tells a good story makes for good comfort food.

[Lily]

Theron wrote: "For me, it's all about language, the art of the written word...."

Any one here know John McWhorter's Talking Back, Talking Black: Truths About America's Lingua Franca ?

Somehow the discussion here recalled to me this interview with him: "The subtitle of your book calls Black English 'America's lingua franca.' What do you mean by that?

"JM: I mean that if you walk across the Columbia campus and listen to any group of white men talking casually, most of them will sound slightly "Blacker" than their fathers did at their age. That's because there are certain aspects of Black English, such as cadence, syntax, and use of slang, that have seeped into the millennials' speech repertoire. The culture of the hip-hop has a lot to do with it. Black English suggests authenticity. It has also been said that it's becoming a marker of masculinity. But it's not as if a guy just decided to talk like Jay Z. None of this is conscious." (Columbia Magazine, Spring 2017)

I contrast that with this:

During the campaign, he stumbled upon his signature issue in the legislature: English as the official language. He remembers the moment, down to the exact date. During an October 10, 1996 fundraiser at Yellow Smoke Park sponsored by then-Governor Terry Branstad, a Republican, he made the speech that shaped his political future. "I was running through my topics and I said, 'And I believe English should be the official language of the state of Iowa.' And it just brought the house down. There was this huge applause," King says. "I knew how strongly I believed in it....”

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/the-p...

[Lesley]

LindaJ^ wrote: "Nice to see this topic re-energized. I just reread all the comments and was reminded of why I like this group. I'm still of the mind either good prose or a good plot can make a book good. But, I fi..."

I have just finished and absolutely loved Rest and Be Thankful...It only took a few pages and I knew a VERY fussy reader like me, would love it. Why? The prose, the rhythm, the pace, the real characters, the cinematic scenery...

I have just started Belly Dancing for Beginners and for no real reason, and despite being very familiar with all the places well described, meets : "I find myself these days tending towards prose, although a book that tells a good story makes for good comfort food. ".. Liking it it, but it feel YA in its pacing.

Was just trying to work out what the ACTUAL difference is, prior to seeing these posts. Interesting.

One of my favourites for two threads with different 'feel' is Leap. The rhythms are really different for each of the main characters.

[Kathleen]

Interesting thread! I'm definitely on the prose side, but I liked the comment calling it "moving" prose. Strong, beautiful. poetic words don't mean much unless they--I don't know--mean much! And that is so personal and sometimes changes over time and depends on mood.

I'd add character to the mix too. I can read a book with a character I care about and not much plot or moving prose. I can read one with moving prose without much character or plot. But I can't read a book with a great plot and not the other two.

[Kirsten]

I used to think I was all about the plot. But then I read a couple books by Iris Murdoch. I love the writing, but I'd be hard pressed to tell you what the books I read were about.

[Lily]

Kirsten wrote: "...I'd be hard pressed to tell you what the books I read were about. "

I wonder how Ms. Murdoch, before her last years, would have felt about that reaction to what she wrote. Or her husband.

(view spoiler)[ They might well have agreed? (hide spoiler)]

[Danielle]

Prose. A wonderful example is: Charlotte's Web.

[Patrick]

Prose, plot, character, theme are all part of the literary performance. The nature of the performance dictates what you pay attention to.

[Franky]

This is an interesting debate. I'm ruminating on this for quite a bit, and I think I'm more on the prose side, as I've read some wonderfully plotted books that have little in the way of great and beautifully artistic writing, and everything comes across very, very flat.

Obviously, there has to be both elements, though, for a successful and engaging book.

[Kirsten]

I used to think I was a plot person, but if the prose is good enough (i.e., Iris Murdoch) I can live without it.

[Bernadette]

I think good prose is a must but a plot is an optional extra.

[Marc]

Count me in the prose camp, but I've found excelling in either can make up for a lack in the other.