Why is child rape explained as something natural in this book?

[Ani]

I did enjoy her books many years ago. However, I did not care for her inclusion of the brother and sister having intimate relationships. I thought it rather sick, even for that time period! I do not believe her credibility as a writer should be discounted for this, though. I believe it was still a good serious. It did have some low points, but over-all, it was written very well.

[Renee E]

You do know that part of the Arthurian legend is that he unknowingly fathered a child on his half-sister, right? Thus begetting his own doom — his son, Mordred.

So that's not an inclusion of MZB's creation; that's her holding her story within the boundaries of the existing mythos. Granted, she did explore the psychological aspects on both sides, and how both were affected and how it effected their lives in the long run, but it wasn't glorified or romanticized.

[Arlene]

Funny I took it more of a "little" person not a little girl.. I enjoyed the books and never once did I ever take it as child molestation or rape....

I HATE it when an author's work is dissected after they die and there is no way for them to stand up and correct or defend what they wrote. Now there are a whole lot of people who enjoyed a book that have a negative connection in their heads that were never there to start with. Right or Wrong the only way we will ever know exactly what was implied in this case is if we die and get to meet up with her... Unless one of you can talk to her in the collective consciousness.

[[deleted user]]

Both her daughter and son have said she was sexually and physically abusive. MZB admitted herself in testimonies to physically abusing her children and overlooking his husband's pedophilia. I'm never reading her books again, and I regret ever spending money on them. I bought them after she died, but the money doesn't go to the children, it goes to one of MZB's ex-lovers, the owner of her estate and someone who denied MZB's and her husband's activities and smeared anyone who tried to speak out against them.

I don't believe that any woman would willingly ignore what her husband did to children unless she was part of it too.

I'm just disgusted that it went unnoticed for so long because most of her colleagues didn't speak about it. People in the 1960s at Berkeley seemed to find it AMUSING that her husband diddled children (in FULL VIEW OF OTHER PEOPLE), and the science-fiction/fantasy community seems to have a history of sheltering absolutely shitty people.

EDIT: I'm not posting all the details, but you can find them very easily if you google.

[Constable Reggie]

Hannah wrote: "That's what happened! Either accept the reality of the true story or read something else. "

While I completely agree that that is canon in the Arthurian legend, you shouldn't really call it "reality", or a "true story", I think.

[Momma Foxx]

Totally overlooked that myself until now, but after having read the other discussion on this book; "..just found out that Marion Zimmer Bradley was, in fact, a terrible human being. Before she died, Bradley admitted she knew of her then ex-husband's sexual abuse of several minors as it was happening and did nothing. (He was later convicted on several counts of sexual molestation) 5 years after her death, Bradley's daughter stated that her mother sexually molested her from the ages of 3 to 12." She was obviously one twisted woman, so it comes as no surprise to me that she attempted to make that scene seem completely natural. What a shame.

[Dan]

Read these when I was much younger and never really liked it. Can't give clear examples why as it has been too long ago but I do remember not liking the characters themselves.

That said HOLY CRAP I had no idea about MZB but surely knowing all this must put new light on this book.

How shameful, I will never read her stuff ever again.

PS: and people give Orson Scott Card so much trouble for being a bigot yet not a peep about this.

[Guilherme]

Xdyj wrote: "I don't think the ancient British pagan society envisioned by MZB in this book is meant to be a flawless utopia, or the narrator Morgaine is supposed to be MZB's mouthpiece."

Totally agree. Can't see how some shades of grey instead of the good versus evil thing we see so often would detract from a book.

[Guilherme]

Susan wrote: "Argument over ideas isn't a bad thing. How can any of us know what we stand for if we can't identify the practices or beliefs that no longer serve us? Through the exchange of ideas, you've refine..."

Susan, how glad I was that you made a distinction between good and pleasant! It seems to me that for most people they are the same thing, to which I could agree if we were talking about, say, food. But for books? No way!

[Kali Jaguarstar]

Don't spread LIES and nonsense about this book. Are you a mentally retarded clown, calling this wonderful author "a monster" just because the scenes in her book don't fit your narrow-minded, childish morality??? This book describes multiple Celtic rituals, one of them being a sexual ritual known as the Great Marriage. It also describes medieval women being forced into marriage at a very young age. That is not condoning rape, that is describing real life in 5th century Britain, and real Druidic rituals.

[Rick]

The world was much different in 500 A.D.

[Kari]

I think those who are viewing this negatively, are viewing it through a 21st century lens. We all have to remember that, as women living in the free world (I'm assuming most of us do), we have a completely different perspective on the matter. But we must keep in mind that things were not so open and free as we're used to back when this book takes place. It would simply be a sort of anachronism (however unfortunate) to say that even girls were thought of as independent, intelligent beings. It simply wasn't true. A priestess? Maybe. But that was a different sphere of influence altogether. Things we find abhorrent and offensive today were the societal "norms" of that time. We've come a long way in terms of our freedoms and opportunities, but it simply wasn't always so.

[Cateline]

Rachel wrote: "Sadly, this thread has become prophetic. Her daughter has recently gone public with allegations of long standing sexual abuse. http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ac......"

Thanks, belatedly, for posting the WaPo article. I only recently read Avalon and while I thought it was rather drawn out (where was the editor?) and overly critical of Christianity I rated it 3/5. I do not remember the sentence that is the subject of this thread, but found much of the ritualistic events disturbing. Especially now, in light of MZB's personal life. It is difficult to separate an artists personal and professional life, their art is so imbued with their personality and beliefs.

That makes me think of the old Hollywood Studio System of completely hiding any peccadilloes of their stars. Of course that made for some horrible results, but it kept the public from associating the stars with what the studios considered untoward behavior.

[Michelle]

Thanks hoop hoop for your original question. This passage has ALWAYS bothered me, from the time I first read the book when I was 10 years old through all the years and many times that I reread it. It was one of the formative stories of my life, which as it turns out is appropriate since I was sexually abused in severe and sadistic ways, including group ritual, but didn't remember any of it until decades later. Interesting that I was drawn to this book. Thanks to those of you who posted the articles about Bradley's daughter and her abuse, it's somehow a relief to know this.

And the little girl in question is described in an earlier passage very clearly as a "little girl" with no intermediary adjectives, skipping across the ritual space strewing something or other. She's not a teen nor does it say anywhere that she has her "monthlies". She's a little girl, defined in the dictionary as under 10.

Bradley's enchanting text weaves a spell, a sort of hypnosis- she probably thought it was funny, or maybe sneaky, to slip this in there.

[Rowan]

The way the author writes it is kind of telling. As if this kind of thing is natural to her. These characters she created are from the mind of a depraved pervert who actually did these things to her daughter so it doesn't surprise me. I have never read the book it looks alright from what i have heard. But yeh it's something she saw frequently and took part in. You would think that even back then people would feel empathy or horror even at seeing a kid raped. That is not the case in this scene obviously.
Although this information wouldnt stop me reading it. It kind of leaves one feeling cold at the thought of reading a book that was written by a child abuser because the characters in it are a part of this person.

[JoAnn]

My ALL TIME FAVORITE BOOK!!!! I believe this was an act that was not looked upon as heinously as it is today. Looting and plundering happened as a matter of conquering. Sadly, it was a part of the spoils of war.

[Brandi]

The culture has changed in terms of what is considered a "child." It truly wasn't until the 19 century that views on age and age of consent was viewed acceptable. Girls were considered a woman when their first mensies began. They were then considered to be marriage material, as that was their most fertile time. The culture of that time had girls married at the age of 12-14. Woman died at such ages, and if you weren't married and having children before the age of 20, you were considered a spinster. Bradley is sticking into the culture of that time, which is how it should be with Historical Fiction. It does not mean she would agree with child rape.

[Mellie]

Brandi wrote: "The culture has changed in terms of what is considered a "child." It truly wasn't until the 19 century that views on age and age of consent was viewed acceptable. Girls were considered a woman when... It does not mean she would agree with child rape."

What you are saying is not incorrect. Just because an author writes something does not mean he/she is condoning it. However, in this particular case, MZB abused her own children and believed it was good for children to have sexual relations as early as possible. :(

[Robin]

What do you do when your favorite author turns out to have been evil incarnate?
I purchased The Mists of Avalon by Marion Zimmer Bradley in the Birmingham, UK Virgin Mega-store in the early eighties. I had already read her Darkover novels and The Mists of Avalon became my favorite work of fiction.
Thirty four years later I'm in the US; the place I had worked for thirteen years had closed. I had just lost my Father and our family home, and a viral pandemic had begun to grip the world. I dug out that same book I had brought with me from England and started reading.
I was surprised the book seemed as brilliant as it did all those years ago. Upon reaching page 512, the incongruity of Morgaine's time in the land of the fairy folk or the memory of nasty rumours at the time of Marion's death made me stop. I decided to look her up on Wikipedia. Any hope I had that she had been exonerated of wrong - doing evaporated instantly. The truth was far worse than I could have imagined!
Her own children had been victims of their parents' abuse. Marion's paedophile husband, Walter H. Breen, had died in jail having been convicted on 22 counts. Her own Daughter, Moira Greyland, had stated that Marion was more depraved and abusive than her husband, who himself was a monster!
I then read many articles on Art vs Artist, all of course, citing the likes of Wagner. None of the arguments for separating art from artist applied to Marion Zimmer Bradley!
Then I read Moira's poems: Mother’s Hands and They Did Their Best.
https://deirdre.net/marion-zimmer-bra...
I read her words and knew what you do when your ex-favorite author is evil incarnate.
You rid yourself of works created by those very same hands that caused so much pain.

Options:
Gut reaction: Take a blow torch to them. Not an option; book burning is historically linked with evil and would also generate greenhouse gasses!

Sell or donate the books. Even if done for charity, some innocent person may fall in love with her work, only to feel the same as I felt when I found out the truth.

Recycle them! They help to save the environment!

I put them all out at the curb and the next day they were gone on their way to becoming something else.