Lord of the Rings Read-Along discussion
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I love every single one of Sam's lines. I can't believe that book!Sam is outdoing movie!Sam in my heart, but somehow things like his willingness to conspire with Merry and Pippin to help Frodo just win me over even more. I am also especially enjoying Merry's characterization. He seems very much the leader of the group and I'm super impressed with his competence. He reminds me of the best kinds of movie producers or of Arthur from Inception: You say "I need to leave the Shire" and he shows up NOT ONLY with ponies packed with provisions and anything else you might need, but also with THREE tubs of hot water so you can all take a bath before you leave, AND he can make a decent attempt at navigating the Old Forest. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that one of his expeditions in there took place earlier that year to make sure he'd be ready just in case Frodo needed that kind of help. Flawless preparation skills!
Pippin's outspokenness and Frodo's closed-mouthedness and tendency toward self-sacrifice are also clearly evident. The contrast between them is entertaining. Frodo: "*mumblemumble*nothingtoseehere*mumblemumble*" Pippin: "OMG. Let me tell you EXACTLY what happened." Pippin's youthful lack of stamina is also super cute (did anyone else "Aww!" when the Elves had to stabilize him during their long walk?). I look forward to seeing his development as the series continues!
One of the things that struck me, actually made me want to host this discussion and talk with others about it, was the fact that Frodo, in his youth, had trespassed on Farmer Maggot's land. While this may not seem odd (and I should have remembered it from previous readings) it does show some of Frodo's less responsible side. In the film, the entire scene is different and there is no mention of Frodo's youthful follies. I appreciate the little anecdote, it shows some of Frodo before he grew up. And you are totally right, Pippin nearly falling asleep while walking is very sweet, especially considering how energetic and outspoken he tends to be otherwise.
Actually I love the hobbits. These 4 hobbits in particular.I completely agree with castillon02 about Merry.
He is my favourite! His character in the book is simply amazing. But I was quite impressed by the adaptation in the movie too (if I remember correctly, at the end of ROTK he was the first one who raise his sword cring "Frodo!")(->correct me in case). I love his loyalty to his friends, how he's ready to struggle and fight for them and with them. As far as we have read now, he is the one who plots everything and he sounds so deadly convinced that he won't absolutely let Frodo leave the Shire by himself, without him and the others. He cares so much about his friends that he noticed all the little gestures, sights, glances and acts that Frodo did before the departure from Bag End.
I don't want to spoiler anything, so I won't write anything else about what he did during the course of the book, but.. yes, I love him the most.
My second favourite is Frodo, but I can't really tell enything else because I would write nothing but spoilers. Now my favourite scene was the one from Gildor. Since I study many foreign languages, I totally understand how he feels and what he tryes to do when listening to the Elves speaking to each others.
Anyway, he may seem confused and many many people criticed his character in the movies, but I really admire him because he is brave, more that he imagine, and, yes, he will show us even more courage if you think that what he did now, 6th chapter, wasn't enought.
About the "irresponsible side". Well, I think that is his Brandybuck side =D and this particular of him is wonderful.
I have to defend Pippin from my dad critics XD he hates him, but with no reason. I think he treats him like Gandalf in the movies (until the palanthir accident). His character in the movies wan't so far from the original book version, but... somehow, on the paper he doesn't seem only a fool, easygoing, cheerful hobbit as in the movie where, it seems to me, he finds his courage and seriousness only in Gondor.
As for Sam... I do prefer him in further chapters, so I'll discuss about him later :)
Hello everyone! :) I just discovered this discussion group (though I've been a part of the Read-Along on Tumblr since the beginning) so I'll be making a lot of scattered comments in the next few hours. I apologise in advance.I completely agree with you guys about Merry. As much as I loved the movie!Hobbits, I was always a little disappointed by the change in Merry's character. He's wiser, bolder and much more practical in the books and I wish PJ had kept that. I loved him right away from the first chapter.
"You’ll live to regret it, young fellow! Why didn’t you go too? You don’t belong here; you’re no Baggins – you – you’re a Brandybuck!"
"Did you hear that, Merry? That was an insult, if you like," said Frodo as he shut the door on her.
"It was a compliment," said Merry Brandybuck, "and so, of course, not true."
We will see how clever and practical Merry can be in A Conspiracy Unmasked and The Old Forest soon (I think we've a little over two days left to be done with them?) though in case there are first-timers here, I won’t give any spoilers.
I love discussing the hobbits :) I loved their personalities both in the book and the movies. I like all four of them for different reasons. In the movies, I liked Sam, Merry and Pippin a little more than Frodo (I just thought that Frodo's personality was a little better in the book.)All 4 are great in the book especially.
What struck me this week was the deep change that Frodo noticed in Sam after his encounter with the Elves. Here we see a matured, reflective Sam who is in fact far-sighted. I wonder if the Elves woke his own far-sight in him or if they "gave" him some of theirs (knowing he would indeed have a part to play in the adventure befire its end). How do you guys see this?
I don't know if Gildor and the other Elves know Sam's future role in the story, I don't think so, but that's just my opinion.But I do think that his encounter with them have suddently open up his mind. Sam is a very Shire-ish Hobbit, who loves his home, his everyday life, his safe and well-known places. Bilbo's stories nourished the seeds of curiosity along the years, off course, that's why he follows Frodo without complaints (also because he love his friends, yes); but I think he is still narrow-minded at this point.
This encounter is his first turning point. He finally sees the truth, makes experience of how the world can be wide, dangerous, various; and... how can I say it? The Shire is a safe place, there the time doesn't really seems to pass, nothing changes. The Elves, with their long life and wide knowledge, suddently make him feel like there was a past, there's a present and there will be a FUTURE; the time passes, things change.
Sam realizes that he is going to shape his own future in that wide world: how? He's the only one he can decide it.
Ok u.u stop with foolish talking (and, probably, grammar mistakes =P sorry guys, I do my best, I swear!)
"The Shire is a safe place, there the time doesn't really seems to pass, nothing changes. The Elves, with their long life and wide knowledge, suddently make him feel like there was a past, there's a present and there will be a FUTURE; the time passes, things change."Right on! It's surprising, because Elves are immortal, but it is their immortality that causes that, their view of life and especially of time is different. They make every mortal more acutely aware of their fleetingness, of their limited life span and of all that they will not be able to do all that they will never know, never see.
Also, if you think about the knowledge and accomplishments of Elves, who knows, maybe Sam feels, just a little bit, like he wants to do something exciting, be a little less like a hobbit (as far as learning new things and going on adventures goes) and more like an Elf? The Shire lends itself to a quiet life, a life filled with good food, stories, companionship but without much change. Sam knows more or less what his life would look like in the Shire, he knows what is supposed to happen. But in the rest of the world? Who knows?
(okay, so we do, but...)
I have seen the movies, but this is my first time reading the books (I am on Chapter 5 right now, and add Merry after I am done with this weeks reading).Caution: Super minor spoilers maybe... they would be very vague if any.
On how their portrayals differ:
1. Sam seems pretty similar. He was always extremely loyal to Frodo and would forego what he thought or wanted if Frodo wanted differently. (Such as Chapter 4 when he wanted to take the road, but Frodo wanted to take a shortcut).
2. Frodo is again, fairly similar, however I think that he is more commanding in this one? It is probably because in the movie they left out a lot of the travel scenes in the first few chapters. He is very curious and has a strong will, the latter being evident in the movies.
3. Pippin is still very cheerful, like he is in the movies. He is a happy go lucky guy at first, and throughout the Fellowship of the Ring (movie). So far he is pretty similar, however in the book he does a little more than being light hearted and funny. (Obviously in the Two Towers and RotK they play a more crucial role in the story).
I think these aspects have changed because well, so far, the movies did not go into depth of the Hobbits' travels before they meet Aragorn. So, at this point there is not a lot of movie to go on, because the movie doesn't address these scenes with depth. Plus, Sam + Frodo meet Merry + Pippin when running away from Farmer Maggot, which is much different than in the books.
Defining Traits:
1. Sam- loyal, curious, able to put other's needs before is own, selfless
2. Frodo-strong will, able to think things through, able to be a leader
3. Pippin-happy, carefree (for now), excited
Pippin and Sam are alike because they do care for Frodo and are risking their lives traveling with Frodo. They are all very sheltered from the outside world in the Shire, so that is something that they have in common as well.
I think that's about it so far! I am excited to see how their characters develop as stuff gets more intense.
Lislbr wrote: "What struck me this week was the deep change that Frodo noticed in Sam after his encounter with the Elves. Here we see a matured, reflective Sam who is in fact far-sighted. I wonder if the Elves wo..."--- I have had this saved for the last few days but because of spoilers I didn't want to post it, but since today is Friday I think it'll be alright. ---
Now that you mention it, it does pose an interesting question. While I do not believe the Elves could have actually known about the rest of Sam's adventure, but perhaps in some way they opened up some path in his mind/soul that allowed him to perceive that there was something in his future he needed to do or be.
One could also argue that being confronted with the Elves themselves sparked a change in him. That faced with their sadness and gayness, as he puts it, he realized that there was something beyond his life in the Shire, something he needed to experience.
--- spoilers till Chapter "A Conspiracy Unmasked" ---
I personally think that part of his new thoughtfulness has to do with listening in on Frodo and Gildor's conversation. While we learn in "A Conspiracy Unmasked" that he was awake and that the three friends had already decided to go along with Frodo, hearing an Elf, one of the fairest and wisest beings, sound worried must have had an impact on how Sam viewed the journey he was going to undertake. Probably even more so than what Gandalf told Frodo and Sam, the Elf's words of caution and "advice" must have shaken Sam. Not in a way that he would consider not going along, but rather in a "okay, this is more dangerous than expected, but it is what I must do" kind of way.
Alright, let's get this discussion up and running again. There is lots to talk about if you know where to look. So, here are some questions for you:1. Why does Old Man Willow affect the hobbits differently? Any theories?
2.Why do you think Sam does not have a bad dream while at Tom and Goldberry's?
3. How can Goldberry tell that Frodo is an elf-friend? Do you think it means something more than simply a friend of the elves?
4. What do you think the hobbits think of Tom Bombadil? We each have theories, so they must too.
5. Is there any significance in the quartet being divided in the barrow-downs?
I hope you feel provoked by some of those questions or have something entirely different to say. In the next few days there will be more questions concerning the next chapters.
Sam is my favorite hobbit already by this point in the book. His loyalty and far-sight are clearly cherished by Tolkien as well. A couple of interesting Sam-moments come to mind:
1) He is the only hobbit who does not have a nightmare at Tom Bombadil's house
2) He is the most skeptical towards Strider, his is portaited as tough, keen and loyal
3) He is very protective of Frodo ("'I can carry enough for two', said Sam defiantly.")
4) He is the one with guts to tell Bill Ferny what he thinks of him and even throws an apple at his face!
5) When he starts singing about Gil-Galad the others are surprised. This hints that there is so much more to Sam than most can see! He knows his words and he was always interested in history and lore
6) At Weathertop he is the voice of reason noting that a fire will show their location
7) Most intersting is that Strider treats him differently. Sam is the one he talks to about Frodo's health.
All in all we can already see how special Sam is.
Follow up question then: why does Old Man Willow affect Sam less than the others? And Frodo less than Merry and Pippin? Of course, this is all speculation, but well, we should have fun with this.
Wow, thank you for sharing those thoughts. What you wrote makes a lot of sense. It also fits with Sam's no-nonsense attitude. Not that he is not occasionally funny, but he does seem to understand the immense importance of their task (especially after meeting the Elves). Merry felt most comfortable in the forest, probably because he had spent time there before, so perhaps he was not as on his guard as Frodo and Sam. And like you said, Pippin as the youngest would feel safe with his friends and also not as on his guard.
I think with Frodo remembering all the burdens he is carrying is important to understand his actions. Even decision is made up of so many components (leaving home, missing Bilbo, being a rather secluded hobbit, carrying the Ring, the responsibility,the weight, the temptation, leading his friends into danger...) The list of things constantly weighing on Frodo's mind is nearly endless.
Some impulses for the last few chapters:1. Sam, songs and the Elves.
2. Hobbits and trust
3. Sam's courage
4. Frodo facing the Riders at the ford
5. General hobbit hardiness (it is seriously underrated in the films, at least in the Fellowship, I mean, 20 miles in one day?!)
PS: Tell your friends to come and talk with us!
So, we don't get a lot of new impulses in the Rivendell chapters, but here are a few I could think of:1. Frodo and Sam's relationship (Sam's devotion)
2. Frodo and Bilbo's relationship
3. Bilbo in Rivendell (so, I know he isn't one of our 4 main hobbits, but it seems only fitting to talk about him here)
4. Frodo's proposal to take the ring
I am going to go run around tumblr frantically asking people to talk to us, I would hate for this discussion to die.
Claire wrote: "4. Frodo's proposal to take the ring"Actually we're talking about it in the Frodo discussion, that's why I won't write about it here. Somehow I don't want to mix up the things in different topics, regarding Bilbo too é_è
So I'll answer to the "relationship" points.
Somehow, the relationship between Frodo and Sam always give me some strange feelings. I like that Frodo respect Sam and treasure him although he would go through the fire for his shake, he doesn't take advantage of his "dominatin position". While Sam's attitude somehow... I don't know, sometimes it's annoying. Maybe because I don't want any of my friends to act like he does (devoting to me and my defense). And when I think about this, I realize that maybe he acts in this way just because he can see Frodo's sufference with his vey eyes, while I can't. And I began to wonder: wouldn't I act in the same way if I was in Sam's shoes?
In the end... maybe Sam's attitude annoys me just because I'm jealous of Frodo X'D
About Frodo and Bilbo relationship, I must say that the movie scene when Bilbo sees the Ring again (in the movie he doesn't ask for it, he see it by chance) scares me lot. After so many years, this is still a scene that I don't want to see. I love Bilbo, I don't want to see him like that é_è and I guess Frodo feels the same. He doesn't have his parents anymore, but he treasures family even more than someone who still has them: he's very fond of his cousins and of Bilbo, his uncle. They love each other a lot: Frodo wants to be like him and wanted an andventure as his, while Bilbo hoped to gave him a quiet and beautiful life in the Shire but feel so horrible to be the cause of his nephew most horrible adventure.
I like the relatives-love that comes from their relationship ^^
Frodo/BilboYes, that scene always freaks me out, and it is also incredibly sad. Here is an old hobbit, safe and content in Rivendell, the last Homely House and still, the Ring still has power over him. In the book it is even clearer (if not quite as frightening) because he asks to see it.
As far as Sam and Frodo goes, I know what you mean. Sam's devotion can be almost painful, pitiful at times, especially later on. Their relationship often feels unequal, more master/servant than friend, which I think is something that bothers many readers. We want Sam to be on the same level as Frodo and as Merry and Pippin. Seeing characters being too selfless tends to make them appear weak rather than kind, which is really too bad because I would not describe Sam that way, his personal courage is thrust into the background, even though it is vital to the story. This relationship is obviously one that will follow us through the next books as well, I am excited to see the differences to the films (the last time I read the books was a long time ago).
Claire wrote: "Seeing characters being too selfless tends to make them appear weak rather than kind, which is really too bad because I would not describe Sam that way"Me neither. Being so selfless makes him really breave and I really appreciate this kind of strength to "sacrifice" for a friend. But from the point of view of the friend whom someone could sacrifice for (OMG this sentence is difficult O_O I hope it is grammatically correct!!) it's... I don't even know what words to use.
BTW this is the reason why I'll prefer the later-Sam when he will take his own decisions and become an active part of the Ring travel (I won't add anything, I don't wont to write any spoiler ^^)
Yes, there is definitely a class difference between Sam (the gardener/servant) and Frodo (the land-owner/master) that is evident in their interactions. (And somewhat in Sam's interactions with Merry and Pippin, who are the sons of important hobbits.) However, I find that Sam's devotion to Frodo sometimes manifests itself in rebellions against the class system--for instance, sneaking into the Council of Elrond or conspiring with Merry to accompany Frodo on his journey. Sam's fidelity to Frodo always seems to overcome any restrictions/duty to obedience that are imposed by his class. I love Nancy's thoughts above re: Old Man Willow, but I also wonder if maybe Sam's immense loyalty to Frodo helped Sam to resist the influence of Old Man Willow; perhaps Sam's devotion to Frodo is so big inside him that there is very little room left for Old Man Willow to influence him, if you see what I mean. Maybe later this focus on Frodo's well-being will also help him to resist the Ring? We'll find out!
I was hugely disappointed in this one aspect of the movie vs the book, specifically (view spoiler). Still don't understand why PJ felt he had to do that -- really seemed to "break" the relationship between Frodo and Sam.perhaps Sam's devotion to Frodo is so big inside him that there is very little room left for Old Man Willow to influence him, if you see what I mean
Love this idea, Castillon02!
Claire wrote: "3. Bilbo in Rivendell..."This is one of my favorite parts of the book: seeing Bilbo in this wonderful place where he has everything he needs or wants - good food, good friends, he can sit by the fire and write poetry to his heart's content. I love seeing him so content.
nancy anna wrote: "I think he struggled a bit in trying to portray the impact the One Ring was having on Frodo and that was one of his poorest attempts! Sometimes I just pretend that didn't happen!"I agree on both counts. I see what he was trying to do, but I think he chose a poor way to do it. I have similar -- ok, actually even stronger -- objections to certain things he's done in The Hobbit movies thus far. Like you, I just pretend it didn't happen :)
Alright, so this discussion has been inactive for a while, maybe we can pick it up again?1. Frodo and Sam and the Mirror of Galadriel
2. Generally the hobbits' reactions to Lothlórien and Galadriel
Next week we will also have some more interesting things to discuss, but we don't want to spoil it for the first time readers...
Well I LOVE the Lothlorien chapters in the book! It is at this point obvious that the One Ring has an effect on Frodo, who is able to accurately perceive Galadriel's ring. Sam can see "a star on her finger" but not the ring itself.Both hobbits look in the mirror and see destruction. Sam sees the destruction of his own home and likewise Frodo, but Frodo's vision is more encompassing, shows the greater breadth of destruction. It's not because he is somehow more intelligent than Sam (though he is perhaps more spiritual? possibly amplified by the Ring, as well as being the eldest of the hobbits), but I would argue that the emotional and physical toll of bearing the Ring has greater psychological effects than merely leaving the Shire and gallivanting about with Elves, which did leave its impact on Sam.
And yet, in Sam is embodied such a no-nonsense Shire-like essentially hobbit attitude! I love it.
Merry and Pippin seemed to not feature all too heavily in these chapters, so I have less to say about them. Sorry!
I totally agree with the psychological effects and feel that bearing the Ring emphasizes aspects of Frodo's personality that were there before, but had less strength. For once, I am not talking about the negative sides, but rather that Frodo was always responsible, somewhat quite, contemplative. And between the weight of Middle Earth resting on his shoulders and all the things the Ring itself does to him, he is acutely aware of how important he is (though he would most likely say it is his task that is important, not he himself). Sam, on the other hand, focuses on the day-to-day survival, the shorter goals and probably thinks less about what may happen if they do not succeed. Not because he does not care, but because the pressure is not directly on him. And while he is Frodo's most adamant supporter, he is not the one faced with this incredible burden (both of the Ring and of the expectations of all who know). And who of us wouldn't be stressed if Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond and a bunch of other pretty magnificent people/elves/Maiar were expecting that of us? In addition to all the people/elves/HOBBITS who know nothing of him but would none the less suffer if he should fail.
(You rock, Frodo!)
Hobbits characterization – The Uruk-hai chapterThis is the first chapter we see Pippin and Merry on their own. It’s basically Pippin’s point of view and what a surprise to see how witty he is! Not a silly dumb young hobbit, but intelligent and daring. He read the situation very well, planned and carried out two ingenious tricks and even had a slight telepathic connection with Aragorn (saw him searching for signs). Yes, Merry is the “learned” one who studied the maps and knows where he is; together they are a great team.
Tolkien describes two very tough hobbits. Amazing how they could go through so much toil and pain without losing their hobbit-like optimism. They are not fools. They know they are in huge trouble! Both have been sick, have been tortured, are lost, and have little chance of survival, but they can still lift their hearts at the touch of grass or water. This relationship between nature’s pleasantness and hobbit hearts is a wonderful trait in Tolkien’s characterization of the race. It is unclear if the hobbits are able to recover so fast (both physically and emotionally) due to their tough natures, due to the orc medication, the magic of lembas bread or the effects of the waters of the Entwash. Maybe it’s a mix of all? Looking forward to more of these guys!
I loved seeing more of Pippin's POV in that chapter, too! You are right that his cleverness and improvisation make him a great foil for the more learned and fore-thinking Merry.We have had a lot more hobbit narrative now that we've gotten to the next book, which is basically The Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) Show.
One thing that broke my heart was when Frodo asked Sam if he really thought they would need food to last them the way home. :( It definitely highlighted how brave the hobbits are that they're going on this suicide mission so willingly and stoutly. It reminds me of when Tolkien was talking about Pippin and Merry's ability to keep up a fairly cheerful demeanor even after their terrible ordeal with the Orcs.
In these chapters we also see a bit of how Frodo and Sam differ from each other, especially in their treatment of Gollum.
What Frodo and Sam moment intrigued you the most in these chapters?
That quote is sad, but it makes me proud of Frodo at the same time because he is so brave all the time. One of my personal favorite moments is when he says he will go to the Black Gate because he said he would go to Mordor and 'what comes after must come.' Wow, he's so courageous.
On the one hand, for those of you who have seen the movies, how do their portrayals differ? Why do you think these aspects may have been changed?
For first time readers, how would you characterize them so far? What traits seem to define them? How are the four alike, how are they different?
Every week, new aspects of their personalities will be shown and maybe the ideas you or I have now, six chapters in, will change by the time we reach the end. I think this is a good way to follow character development and also to see if what you notice about the four is different from what someone else does.
Please be mindful of spoilers (I know it is hard) and enjoy delving into the psychology of our little heroes!