Does Tolkien own the Dragon sleeping on a pile of gold idea?

[Michael]

I ask because shrek had this

[anday]

eh, I looked at wikipedia (for dragon) and the word gold is not mentioned. However there was this sentence "They are sometimes portrayed as hoarding treasure", with no reference given.

It is also used in Dungeons & Dragons. A dragon by necessity has a hoard of relative size to it's level/size.

I'm curious, when you say 'own', do you mean 'own the rights', or are you just asking if he invented the idea?

[Elentarri]

Dragon hoarding treasure is also found in Beowulf. I think it's one of those things that has been around forever.

[David]

Fafnir the dragon in Norse myth: Sigfried, also a ring plays a part in the cycle...

[Elentarri]

There is a book called Tolkien's Ring by David Day that discusses some mythological material for themes found in the Hobbit and LOTR.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

[Isaac]

I think it originated in the Norse mythology, which partially inspired Tolkien when creating his universe.

[Ken]

^ Isaac has it. This symbolism and association stems from ancient folklore.

[Michael]

anday wrote: "eh, I looked at wikipedia (for dragon) and the word gold is not mentioned. However there was this sentence "They are sometimes portrayed as hoarding treasure", with no reference given.

It is also..."

Own the rights I mean.

[Michael]

Yeah I see it a lot to, I asked because I found it curious that Shrek had it. But with the red dragon in Shrek that is like a carbon copy of Smaug it could have been used as a spoof of The Hobbit.

[sailor _stuck_at_sea]

Dragons sleeping on their hoard of gold is literally older than print, so no he, or rather his estate, does not own the concept. On top of that it's extremely hard to claim rights for literary concepts.

[Scott]

Just off the top of my head, the only truly unique item of Tolkien's is hobbits. I don't think they ever occurred previous to his writing about them. Having said that I must insist that this does in no way diminish what Tolkien did. Mozart didn't invent notes, but look what he did with them. The quest theme goes back to the very beginning of story telling. Dragons have come in all shapes and sizes, some even aquatic.
Can anyone tell me the first time a dragon was ever ridden?

[Scott]

I don't know the chronology but I suspect the Chinese dragon is older than Gilgamesh. Smaug, I believe, derives from European dragons. This, I think, is a worthy research topic.

[Gary]

Michael wrote: "Own the rights I mean."

You can't really own the rights to a concept like a dragon sleeping on a pile of gold. You can own a particular image, or the text of a story that has such an idea in it, or you could own plot of such a story and its characters, but the idea of a dragon sleeping on treasure isn't copyrightable.

You can have things like copyrights, trademarks and patents, but those are on specific intellectual properties. That is, you can copyright a work of fiction about the first mouse shot into space, but you can't copyright the concept of doing experiments on rats in orbit. You can trademark the image of a cartoon character, but you can't own the idea of a talking mouse. You can patent the mechanism of a mouse trap, but you can't own the idea of dealing mechanical death to rodents.

[Wastrel]

Scott wrote: "I don't know the chronology but I suspect the Chinese dragon is older than Gilgamesh. Smaug, I believe, derives from European dragons. This, I think, is a worthy research topic."

Unlikely. The earliest Chinese civilisation actually reliably attested (and the beginning of Chinese writing) starts around 1000 years after Gilgamesh's death (and the earliest surviving texts of the Gilgamesh legends, including him fighting 'Huwawa', are from just a couple of centuries later).

It's possible, I suppose that the people living in China thousands of years ago were telling stories about dragons, but there's no evidence of this - there can't be any evidence until the invention of writing. And it's also probable, of course, that the Sumerians also had stories of dragons before they wrote them down.

[Scott]

The earliest appearance of Chinese dragons, that I am aware of, does not occur in literature but as jade carvings, one at least from the fifth millennium BC, Gilgamesh is said to have reigned sometime around 2500 BC. The Chinese dragons are possibly a concatenation of a particularly large crocodile that existed around that time and dinosaur bones, which are still plentiful there. I am not claiming that Chinese dragons are the source of all other dragons.

Smaug was very likely inspire by Beowulf's dragon.

[Wastrel]

Unfortunately, 'Chinese dragons' in early carvings are kind of... well, for one thing it's strange to call them 'dragons'. "Pig-dragons" is one word that's often used for them - they're basically crescents or foetuses with a face. They could be a foetus, a dragon, a pig, a slug, a dolphin, it's hard to really fix on 'dragon' as a useful description. It's also strange to call them 'Chinese', as these cultures seemingly had no genetic, and minimal cultural, links to the later cultures of Sinitic peoples. 'Asian weird things' would be a more accurate description'.

[A good claim for 'first dragon' might be Apep, Lord of Evil. In the early depictions he's just an extremely long snake, but I think later on they give him arms as well]

[Scott]

I mention the jade carvings only to indicate that the concept of a dragon is much older than anything one can find in any form of literature. Some feel they are actually an archetype (if you believe in archetypes). From the root of this topic it may be more appropriate to identify the earliest greedy dragon and/or one that can fly. I don't recall any mention of Beowulf's dragon flying, but then I could be wrong.

[Linda]

Tolkien would never want to own a dragon. Isn't he the good guy, the author who writes about dragons, etc. I've read all three of The Lord of the Rings and it's not at all a book where dragons are good. They're evil, and Tolkien sides with good.

[Julia]

Is it my imagination, or does OP appear to have some preoccupation with copyright & plagiarism matters? It might be a different guy, but it seems like somebody named "Michael" with that same Vampire Diaries picture has posted stupid plagiarism questions about timeless concepts in at least 3 other threads.

If I'm correct in making this connection then please, OP, do share why you are so occupied with who copied or borrowed from who?

If I'm not correct, than I apologize for bringing this up.

[Ashley-Anne]

Not by a long shot. Most of what Tolkien wrote was built on Norse and Celtic mythology. He originated a few concepts, like the Sylvan style elves rather than little stumpy gnomes, but other than that the most original parts of his texts are the languages.

[Bjarne]

I agree about the originality of the hobbits, and the un-originality of dragons, in LOTR. But I must add the Ents! They are a very original Tolkien theme.

[BookCrazy]

JRR Tolkien specialized in Classical Literature including Norse mythology. He wrote what is still considered the ultimate treatise on Beowulf. He had rich sources to draw from, plus his own imagination.

[Feliks]

I'm liking the fact that Scott and Wastrel both articulated their very divergent views without getting nasty or supercilious. Good job you guys.

[Ken]

I'd like to see more of that "origins of dragon schema" discussion.

[Gabe]

I think others have already mentioned this but the image of "dragons" or "worms" hoarding treasure is a very old one. It's mentioned in Beowulf (along with the idea of a burglar stealing from a dragon via secret door) but probably the older occasion to this can be found in the Fáfnismál, a heroic poem within the Poetic Edda.


I have to say "probably" because the dates of when these stories came about is basically unknowable. We only know of them because some kindly scribe decided to jot the oral tradition down. The manuscript with Beowulf is from somewhere between 7th and 10th century, and the Poetic Edda is found within the Icelandic Codex Regius of the 13th century. Although, we have evidence that puts the tale of Sigurd and Fafnir many many centuries before.

Tolkien was not only aware of these two stories, he was, in his time, arguably the worlds foremost scholar on both. His analysis of Beowulf is still highly regarded today in academia, and during his life he gave a great many public lectures on the Codex Regius.

[Peter]

To Linda - Tolkien wrote far more than The Lord of the Rings. In which, from memory, no dragons featured. They were certainly participants in his other works...

For the rest - I believe there are three (five? not many anyway) posited fiction themes.

One of which is THE QUEST. Read the Rivan Codex, where David Eddings (another Professor of English Literature) gives a potted history of Fantasy and how to write one.

[Mackenzie]

Gabe wrote: "I think others have already mentioned this but the image of "dragons" or "worms" hoarding treasure is a very old one. It's mentioned in Beowulf (along with the idea of a burglar stealing from a dra..."

^^^This is correct, and, if I'm not mistaken (which is often the case) I read somewhere online that his translation of the text will be published (if it isn't already). It happens in part three of Beowulf (if you handle Beowulf in parts), and Fafnir the dragon in the Norse/Germanic mythos guards a gold-horde as well. Tolkien was a medievalist and handled Anglo-Saxon works such as this, and other influential Germanic and Celtic themes. I was told by several people, but with no sources to back it up: The Lord of the Rings was written to be a sort-of compiled folklore/mythology for England and its people (not in the sense that we regard mythology today, more of just I dunno, "book-like"??). Most of the other creatures in Lord of the Rings are based on/influenced by their Germanic counterparts, such as the elves and dwarves. I really like this discussion, I never looked into dragons before. Thanks for all the info, people, and thank you op for triggering this interesting discussion. And sorry if I come off as rude. I'm sorry ;-;

My question is: did Tolkien create orcs, or were they already a thing?

[Michael]

Mackenzie wrote: "Gabe wrote: "I think others have already mentioned this but the image of "dragons" or "worms" hoarding treasure is a very old one. It's mentioned in Beowulf (along with the idea of a burglar steali..."

He did create orcs but he got the name throughout a German word I think so anyone can use the creature. The only evidence I have to back that up is the orc series that was published a few years ago

[J.]

Michael wrote: "Mackenzie wrote: "Gabe wrote: "I think others have already mentioned this but the image of "dragons" or "worms" hoarding treasure is a very old one. It's mentioned in Beowulf (along with the idea o..."

If I remember correctly, there is a line in the first part of "Beowulf" which says that Grendel is descended of the line of Cain. It goes on to list other members of the lineage including orcnaeas. Its a small step from orcnaea to orc.

[Gary]

J. wrote: "If I remember correctly, there is a line in the first part of "Beowulf" which says that Grendel is descended of the line of Cain. It goes on to list other members of the lineage including orcnaeas. Its a small step from orcnaea to orc. "

Well, I guess now I'm rereading Grendel again.... It's been a few years. Probably about time anyway.