A call for suggestions...

[Richard]

I've been away, working on a new book, so my apologies for being such a stranger! Part of the conflict I'm developing deals with family troubles the main character has to deal with as a result of his Irish Traveler Family roots in South Carolina. I'm reading a book called, Gypsy Empire by Eamon Dillon, which seems to be primarily headline driven media exploration. Can anyone suggest a book or books that would go deeper into the culture and the clan interactions as well as means of making a living for these people?

[Seraphina]

I can't recommend a book but typically Irish travellers make there money buying and selling whatever they can get their hands on from copper piping to horses. They buy and sell horses going to different fares and also race greyhounds. Sometimes they work in trades like tarmacing pavements and drives.

[Richard]

I'd heard they traditionally raised dogs and horses. There's so very little about their communities here in the US, but I'm committed to the research. Much appreciated.

[[deleted user]]

Hi, Richard. There was a TV3 show aired over here called Travellers in America which might be of interest to you. There are more clips of the show underneath the main video. If I can find whole episodes online I'll link them here.

There was also a movie released a few years ago calledPavee Lackeen about a young Traveller girl growing up in Dublin. I'm having trouble getting that link to work. You might have better luck.

There were also two books that my ma really enjoyed: Gypsy Boy and Gypsy Girl. Rosie McKinley. She recommends them to all of her friends.

[Richard]

Thanks, Declan -- I'll see if they work for me. That's exactly the kind of thing I was trying to find. Not just re-iterations of reprisal murders, etc.

[[deleted user]]

No problem, Richard. If I think of any more I'll post them here.

[Richard]

I just rented Season 1, episode 1 of Big Fat Gypsy Weddings. I'm speechless... need a drink.

[[deleted user]]

There are similar scenes in Travellers in America, Richard, but they're not central to the programme aas with BFGW.

[Richard]

Declan wrote: "There are similar scenes in Travellers in America, Richard, but they're not central to the programme aas with BFGW."

I jumped off onto Rosie McKinley's book, and it's a gentler education. I couldn't find a working link to Travellers in America. Was it a series?

[[deleted user]]

@Richard. It was a brief series, just a few episodes. I didn't watch it so I'm not sure how many, but it made a bit of noise over here.

TV3 made other programmes about other aspects of Traveller life, from finding employment to bare-knuckle fighting. It may be worth tracking them down through their site.

@Jamielynn. Insane only approaches what these weddings are.

[[deleted user]]

They're a very small minority, and for most of my life they've been pretty insular. Often, the world outside (the settle community, as they refer to it) barely registers with them. They were bound to to develop their own traditions and styles.

[[deleted user]]

The Amish are more closed than the travellers ever were. They at least worked out in the larger the community.

[Richard]

I'm nearing the end of Rosie McKinley's (pseudonym for her protection...) book now, and I'm feeling a nagging depression coming on. I can't imagine why a woman of reasonable intelligence would remain in such an abusive culture, let alone introduce so many children into it. I'm still hoping for a silver lining somewhere, but it's looking bleaker by the page. This is reminding me most of the "Compound-Living Mormon" culture seen here in Utah and neighboring states and touched on by the silly HBO series, Big Love. Scary.

Actually, there are several Amish communities that now work and sell in the larger "English is what they call the rest of us...) world, from electric (!) fireplaces to barn-building post and beam crews, furniture, etc.. I don't think they ever eschewed a solid R.O.I. I know if I wanted a barn pout up, I'd rather it be Amish than any other

[[deleted user]]

Richard, typically they're pretty isolated in among their halting sites. If abuse occurs it's hard for services to attend and help. Traveller halts are very intimidating places to visit, even for the Gardaí. I don't want to say that the community is inherently abusive. I don't believe it is.

There's an Irish charity, Pavee Point, which helps people within the traveller community. They might be a good place to source info. They provide their own studies for reasonable fees, if memory serves me right.

[Richard]

Declan wrote: "Richard, typically they're pretty isolated in among their halting sites. If abuse occurs it's hard for services to attend and help. Traveller halts are very intimidating places to visit, even for t..."

I had a friend also recommend their site for more sources. I'm going to give it a rest for a few days. The whole trapped thing that Jamie mentions below is actually really critical to this project of mine. I'm going to give it time to digest properly. Thanks all for the great help!

[[deleted user]]

Don't mention it, Richard. Glad to have helped.

@Jamielynn. The recent decline in social mobility is shocking. People are finding it increasingly difficult to climb out of difficult circumstances like that.

[Seraphina]

Just on the topic of big fat gypsy wedding tv programme, a lot of Irish travellers were offended by that programme. It just shows the extreme cases and is a poor generalisation of the community as a whole.

[Richard]

It's exactly the same on this side of the water as well. The middle class has no where to go but down as there are no jobs.

[[deleted user]]

There was a programme to find a two young travellers to be the face of the traveller community in the UK and they had a hard time getting people to speak to them because of BFGW.

[Seraphina]

They do like to glam things up alright.

[[deleted user]]

That's true, Cphe. It's a pretty bog deal and there are dozens of well-made documentaries about it.

There's a lot of inter-family feuding and every now and again it blows up into a street brawl.

[[deleted user]]

Over here they dress to kill, Jamielynn. There was a time when they were quite poor, but that changed significantly during my lifetime.

[[deleted user]]

They all, both Irish and British based travellers, use the same designer. They've made her quite rich.

[Richard]

Last night I saw a docudrama, Pavee Lackeen: Traveller Girl.... I'm as confused as I was before, and I'm especially surprised that my normal liberal outrage over the "country people's/community government's" treatment of the Pavee wasn't kindled. Instead, my anger was directed at the parents. I'm still trying to find some redeeming qualities in the Traveller culture besides "It's the way we've always done it." Seems like the children... lots of them ...are the victims with no power over their future at all. Women come in a very close second.

[Seraphina]

To be honest Richard I wouldn't describe them as victims. The majority choose to continue the traveller traditions and a few do leave the community, go to college and marry 'settled' people. This is frowned upon but it does happen. They are an extremely religious community which would be one of their redeeming traits for me. I think those shows don't really show you enough to get a balanced viewpoint

[Richard]

I've followed the religious aspect, and that is completely understandable especially after the Cromwell incursion. That also really explains the development of the Gammon or Cant from Shelta. What I don't follow, is why there would be pride in a culture that required the prevailing culture (and other working taxpayers/governments who are stressed as it is...) to pay their way for their choice and remain illiterate while making women into domestic slaves. But, I am willing to learn more. I describe the children as victims because they have no choice in the matter. What child can choose to defy and lose the love of their family? There's gotta be more to it than I've been able to uncover. You can enjoy good craic and warm, loyal family without having to follow that path. I think. Maybe I'm wrong?

[Richard]

Jamie -- I'm probably going to have to move on in my research. I've checked lots of additional resources and found essentially either tabloid style reporting, exploitative TV, "from a distance" novels and a couple of films that touch in a roundabout way the truths. If any group wanted to be less known, they'd have to be invisible.

[[deleted user]]

The ambitions of both men and women seem very limited: Get married, have kids. I really don't think much thought is given beyond that. Literacy is much better among their community nowadays. My own thoughts are that they have little interest in integration so they care little about what outsiders think.

I'd get in touch with Pavee Point, Richard.

[Richard]

Thanks, Declan -- I've got the link. I;ve also downloaded several of the "Lives" stories, but I'm not finding much beyond a well-honed ability to solve problems, but it's always short term. I also really get the thing about their isolation. I have been a "direct reservation trader" in American Indian arts since 1985, so I understand parallel cultures, linguistic/religious isolation and self-induced poverty, but the Pavee just remain enigmatic. Oh well, back to the reading...

[Brian]

Hi Richard
You might want to try contacting the Irish Traveller Movement for background material. They had an excellent exhibition in Cork about two years ago and give a more credible source of information on travellers. They have a site at: http://itmtrav.ie/network/county_info...

[Richard]

Thanks, Brian -- that's one I hadn't found!

[Richard]

I've looked through several reports on accomodations and the legislative "mandates" and I still have a few questions. Who pays for these installations and development of bays in halting sites? Do the Traveller families that use the facilities thus provided pay for such, or are they free? Are local councils compensated for their costs in complying with the accommodations requirements? If anyone knows, these answers, it might help a lot in understanding the residual persecution they experience.

[Seraphina]

Here is a site about halting sites. Paid for by local authorities and a rent then is paid by tenants depending on the kind of housing used from what I gather. http://www.dlrcoco.ie/aboutus/council...

[Richard]

Thanks, Seraphina -- it seems to be quite detailed. From what I can gather, then, it is subsidized rent semi-permanent accommodation. I can see, from the descriptions of the most simple halting bays, that this does mean a substantial investment in construction, infrastructure and management for the county council. It also has some parts which almost feel like assimilation is the intention. Hard call to make. Of course, it will take a long time to bring Travellers into full equality with other Irish sub-cultures. We're still struggling here with racial stuff as well as ethnic diversity issues. Like the lyrics go in the Rodgers and Hammerstein musical South Pacific, "you have to be carefully taught." Thanks for your help.

[Isabella]

I tried a very simple route for Traveller info for my book - I looked at groups on Facebook, and randomly messaged someone. He turned out to be a fantastic contact, and even read some of the novel to confirm - or otherwise - certain bits.

[Barbara]

Richard wrote: "Thanks, Seraphina -- it seems to be quite detailed. From what I can gather, then, it is subsidized rent semi-permanent accommodation. I can see, from the descriptions of the most simple halting bay..."

hi Richard - I do understand the interest in the Travelers'/Pavee's history and culture. As outsides, and Americans, we are pretty far from living with them and understanding the Irish views of the people and culture. Having said that, I want to share this short video about a really outstanding woman named Rosaleen McDonagh. Ms. McDonagh is a playwright, a traveler and a person with a disability. Here's a short video:
http://vimeo.com/4059064

Also a few years ago, The Kitchen Sisters on NPR did a great piece on the changing lives of Traveler women:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/st...

I include Travelers in my course on Irish culture and identity. The point of the course is life in 20th-21st century Ireland to give the students a broader view of Ireland, Irish people and its culture(s).

[Richard]

Isabella wrote: "I tried a very simple route for Traveller info for my book - I looked at groups on Facebook, and randomly messaged someone. He turned out to be a fantastic contact, and even read some of the novel ..."

That's brilliant! Thanks for the idea. I'll give it a shot, too, when I'm at the beta stage -- still 1yr out.

[Isabella]

Richard wrote: "Isabella wrote: "I tried a very simple route for Traveller info for my book - I looked at groups on Facebook, and randomly messaged someone. He turned out to be a fantastic contact, and even read s..."

You're welcome, Richard. I wish you well with it and look forward to hearing more about it.

[Richard]

The untitled book is set on this side of the water, dealing with a first generation Irish American seaman whose father left the immigrant Traveller community down in South Carolina to follow the ship builders trade in New York. It isn't working out too well for his son, who is now dealing with a "cousin" showing up from down South and expecting to be put up in his home, and bending his boss' ear a bit too much. It begins in Red Hook Brooklyn, runs through New Orleans also (second family there...tsk, tsk.)and ends in the Panama Canal Zone in 1947... so far.