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Kill Mandela
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Vicki wrote: "No John, not the straight shooting bad guy, me personally I like the straight shooting, intelligent point of view, not overly opinionated good guy. That same one that is willing to see two maybe th..."Vicki,
You want a Jack/Jan hybrid. Not many of them out there. Good luck...or maybe you've found one already?
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Vicki wrote: "I should have said that Jack comes across as a Draadsitter, but I don't for one second believe he is. I would just like him to open his mouth sometimes and stand up for h..."You got it.
Vicki wrote: "It is nerve- wrecking, but Jan has a big mouth. He's going to pay for that. Actually I've just decided that Jack is the dark horse."Vicki,
Are you going to put some money on that dark horse? It's a long shot, and you could lose. Big time. Maybe.
Mod
I agree Vicki, they are very similar and very different at the same time. Both have strong beliefs, both put family first. Yet Jan is the macho man, straight-talker-no-matter-the-cost and Jack is more cautious.
This happens with several characters. A combo we haven't explored is York and Kobus.
Lisa wrote: "I did find Jack frustrating, but I think that he finds himself in a very tenuous position. He has served the ANC for a long time, yet is only privy to some information and when Jan comes across wit..."Lisa,
This is why Jack doesn't leave Lillian:
'Payment for the sins of generations of colonialism was almost done. And, yes, he would rest when the work was finished – but only long enough to gather strength for the next liberation struggle: that of Lillian. He knew that he’d never be free as long as she remained enslaved by alcohol. He loved her, and that was that.'
You make an excellent point about Jack not being privy to all the information. He was in a difficult situation, particularly as the things Jan had told him about Vula were confirmed by Alpheus. He had to sit on the fence - hopping down on one side or the other might have been disastrous. He had to get more info first.
Lisa wrote: "John wrote: "Adele wrote: "I think Jack is very tactful/diplomatic. Maybe a "people-pleaser". He doesn't like outright conflict. He will test the waters before making a outright stand. That way, he..."Lisa,
I really enjoyed that insight...and it's true. We see it in relationships and marriages all the time.
And - by the way - I root for the good guy on the tv show. I guess that makes me the ...
Mod
Ai Vicki!
Mod
And caution is not necessarily a bad thing.
In a way, I have to respect Jack for his ability to step back and rationally see the dilemma in which he finds himself. He, unlike Jan, Kobus, and York, does not act immediately but thinks the situation through. Part of this is because he is the people-pleaser, and he wants to find a solution that will benefit everyone. I’m not sure one exists unless there are some major changes of heart. Even Jan is drawn to Jack: “It was strange, but he felt safe with Jack. Not because Jack was weak, but rather the opposite: because he was an honest man, and honesty required strength of character” (chapter 24). I find the Jack-Jan friendship surprising initially, but as mentioned, they do have similar desires, such as putting their family first. I wonder if Jack won’t end up coming out on top when it’s all said and done. I find myself thinking of the adage, “Slow and steady wins the race.” That reminds me of Jack because he does not act, for the most part, on raw emotion, but rather tries to see the best way forward for everyone. Maybe I’m just being an idealist, though.Jan puzzles me in many ways. He is driven by what happened to his parents, but is that his true nature? I question because of his previous employment with the police force: “It was the street work, the murder investigations in particular, that had kept Jan in the police. Helping people who, in death, were unable to avenge themselves. That was something worthwhile, in the restoration of the balance of things: ‘an eye for an eye’…He didn’t see it as revenge. He didn’t believe that the Law of Moses meant it in the spirit of revenge. It was justice, pure and simple. There had to be justice, or the world would be out of balance. If it went too far out it would tilt over into anarchy” (chapter 22). It would seem that this aligns with his need to avenge his parents’ brutal death, but then later in the same chapter he realizes something else: “Somebody suffered when a life was taken; and that suffering couldn’t be erased. Could he kill if the life of someone he loved, rather than his own, was threatened?” The question seems to be whether he can become like Thembelani and Sipho, or even Andile, killing perhaps innocent people because they are on a different side than he is. Jan, rather than Jack (in my opinion) seems to be the character who is changing. When he sees the shacks of the blacks while in the plane, Jan has a revelation: “And, for the first time in his life, Jan Kruger felt the pain of the black man. It clawed at his throat and set fire to his brain, and he knew that it was the same pain that he’d carried like a cross for all his adult life. In this, they were one in their suffering! Both needed someone, or something, to open the way for their return to the land. How could he not have seen this before?” (chapter 37). I think that this was fueled in part by recognizing Thembelani, and I wonder what he would have done if Peaches hadn’t killed him. Would he have taken his long-sought-after revenge, or is his exposure to Jack having an effect on him?
York, too, is changing, and I am still unsure of which way he is going to go: “Something had to change. He didn’t know what, or how, but his life was in the balance; he could go either way. He must do something to be happy. He couldn’t wait for Jack, and it was a waste of time to wait for God” (chapter 23). A character whom we haven’t yet explored is Jemaine. There is a distinction between her as a “coloured” rather than a “black”; does this mean that she is of mixed race? Either way, I think that, just as Jack seems to be having an impression upon Jan, Jemaine may prove to be York’s saving grace. She is able to make him feel strong and like he belongs: “The hurt and the horror and the longing all surged into one and rushed up from his heart. He bent forward, as if in pain, and then sat down on the path. He put his head between his knees, and wept. He wept as never before. The pent-up tears of eight long years, the years since Judy’s departure, found their way to the surface: triggered by Mrs. Hawthorn’s death, by Jemaine’s gentle touch” (chapter 23). It also helps him come into his own identity: “With that kiss, he’d broken through his own defences. For the first time in his life he felt as if the way was open—the way to take control of his sexual identity” (chapter 33). This is a very healing thing for York, to finally be able to let go of some of his emotions and to have another person with whom to share his fears and frustrations, someone who is a third party.
Also, there is the relationship between York and Boxer: “Boxer’s story unfolded; and York grew in admiration for the short, lively young man beside him—and grew in anger at a South Africa he hadn’t fully known to exist. This was the world where a black person’s first crime was being black” (chapter 28). Here York is introduced to a bit of a reality check. He seems to have gone through life without really having to make a stand, and it seems that that is about to change. He hasn’t fully decided, it seems, which side he is on, but he definitely seems to be vacillating toward his father’s allegiance, and he has broken away from Kobus and possibly Mrs. Kruger as well. In fact, he may be breaking from his father also, in the face of what he sees as his father’s betrayal: “On the threshold of manhood, and York felt like a fool. Or like a wounded child” (chapter 37). Perhaps this is the greatest test for him. His entire life has been spent trying to protect Jack, only to discover that Jack has led a double life that he is excluded from. Now he will have to reconcile that with his developing viewpoint; will it make him or break him?
Vicki wrote: "Sorry ... Sentimental sap"I am. Cry too easily.
Sarah wrote: "In a way, I have to respect Jack for his ability to step back and rationally see the dilemma in which he finds himself. He, unlike Jan, Kobus, and York, does not act immediately but thinks the situ..."Sarah,
Your drawing our attention to Jan's assessment of Jack as 'an honest man' may well be the final word on the matter of Jack's character. Their 'friendship' is nothing more than the mutual recognition that they are old school types, basing their lives on the core values of bluff honesty and integrity to a cause.
But what happens when both are tested in this regard? Jack has to deceive Jan and play him along to protect his own. Will Jan be able to maintain his position of being a man of his word as MAMUD progresses? What happens when values like this are tested to the limit?
Jan puzzles me as well. His inability to shoot something and take a life took me by surprise as his character developed, and I was able to turn it into a plot point and not just leave it as a mere idiosyncrasy. The loss of his parents at an impressionable age has left him with a deep reverence for the sanctity of life, and the suffering it's loss can bring about.
Jan's foundations were ripped out from under him as a sixteen year old boy, and he re-built his life grounded on the twin passions of anger (revenge) and faith in God. Will these prove to be a sandy foundation? Does Jan really have anything to base his life upon? What does he do as the pillars of his life begin to crumble, starting with Mandela going free and the govt. negotiating with the organization he holds responsible for the slaughter of his parents?
Thank you for introducing Jemaine into the discussion. I found her as a character at my wife's insistence. My wife was my only beta reader as I wrote the first draft. As she read, she constantly expressed her concern for York. She said that I cannot leave him with only a mountain and old(er) married woman in his life (Mrs Kruger & Mrs Hawthorn). He, above all, needed a love interest, and so did the book, she said. I eventually agreed.
And so Jemaine was found working at the cable car ticket office - fortunately just the right type of girl to empower York's frustrated growing masculinity. Without Jemaine, I fear that something terrible might have happened to York and Boxer would have been on his own.
Jemaine is of mixed race, like Peaches. The Cape Colony during the 17th & 18th century became a melting pot of widely diverse racial groups: European settlers, Malay and Indian slaves, and indigenous Khoisan and Xhosa peoples. The interracial mix of these groups was lumped together under the term 'coloured' by the apartheid SA govt. They are the dominant racial group in the Cape province today.
Boxer is also a saviour of sorts for York. He is the deal-breaker between Jack and Jan Kruger's view of the future of SA. In a way they both save each other, and are the one solid relationship that the reader can rely on in KILL MANDELA. They are good for each other, and their future success depends upon the mix of their relative strengths. I enjoyed developing their relationship. I sometimes thought that it was too good to be true, but whenever I looked for serious conflict points between them I could find none...yet.
Vicki wrote: "Okay, after reading some more last night, I am now convinced that Jan is an idiot and Jack is definitely the dark horse.Poor York. Hormones, girls, a new friend and politics. Please just tell me h..."
Vicki,
Jack - so you are going to back the 'draadsitter' after all. That's good - it'll give us something to talk about in Week 3.
York - catching a break? Can you be more specific?
Kobus - perhaps we should do a poll and see who is disliked the most, Kobus or Andile. That could be interesting.
Vicki wrote: "Of all the kids in this story York just seems to be having the hardest time. From family life, murdered neighbours, Kobus's bad attitude the only positive thing is the girl. And because she is a co..."Belly laugh!!
Ah, Vicki. I hope you and I are still going to be friends after KILL MANDELA. I'm strapping on my crash helmet right now.
Vicki wrote: "Bring it on."Week 3!
I'm glad that Jemaine came into existence in the novel, and that York and Boxer seem to be developing a friendship. Hopefully York will get himself straightened around, although after his fall-out (perhaps that's too harsh a term, but that's what comes to mind) with Jack, my concern is piqued again...
John wrote: "...there is another way to respond to power...Martin Luther King...able to achieve so much with relatively so little violence. Perhaps our American readers can help us with perspective..."At the same time MLK was preaching non-violence there were a lot of violent and destructive race riots, perpetrated by people very much like Andile, in America's northern cities. Liberal white Americans were relieved to hear MLK, but I doubt he'd have had so much impact if there had not been the threat of violence.
I remember participating in a 1978 conference addressing Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania's public housing policy and hearing an African-American woman who was diisatisfied with the funding level proclaim loudly, "What Pittsburgh needs is a race riot".
Sarah wrote: "I'm glad that Jemaine came into existence in the novel, and that York and Boxer seem to be developing a friendship. Hopefully York will get himself straightened around, although after his fall-out ..."Sarah,
Jemaine does play an important role in cushioning York from some of his troubles, and in helping him to 'grow up'. However, I also knew that I could not allow York to become sidetracked from his primary objective by romance. Love has a way of doing this to men.
'Piquing your concern' is what a good story should do. Plenty more of that to come.
Dave wrote: "John wrote: "...there is another way to respond to power...Martin Luther King...able to achieve so much with relatively so little violence. Perhaps our American readers can help us with perspective..."Dave! Welcome!
Thanks for that enlarged perspective on MLK. Yes, it does seem true that the threat of violence hastens the negotiating presence. Good cop, bad cop - works every time.
Mod
Wondered where you were! Hi Dave
Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out and I'm busy doing a virtual book tour, so it takes up a lot of time. Just to let you know, I'm reading it as I got free time and well done. You've captured everything so beautiful. I'll do a review once I'm done on here, amazon. If you have any other places you want me to add my review, just yell.
Adrienne wrote: "Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out and I'm busy doing ..."Thanks for the pop-in, Adrienne. I understand only too well the pressures of writing and reading at the same time. Thank you for making the effort in any way you can - your reviews will be most appreciated. All the best with your magical mystery tour.
I am also writing and reading! Writing an article for Mmed degree. I think its more difficult to deliver an article than it is to deliver a baby...
John wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out an..."Thanks John. Your book discussion is a huge success. I just hope mine will have the same outcome in March. Good luck and I'm sure before Week four I'll have something to ask or say, depends, but doubt it. Your book is really amazing.
John wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out an..."Thanks John. Your book discussion is a huge success. I just hope mine will have the same outcome in March. Good luck and I'm sure before Week four I'll have something to ask or say, depends, but doubt it. Your book is really amazing.
John wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out an..."Thanks John. Your book discussion is a huge success. I just hope mine will have the same outcome in March. Good luck and I'm sure before Week four I'll have something to ask or say, depends, but doubt it. Your book is really amazing.
John wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Hi John, I started with your novel and I have to say it is really amazing. Sorry that I haven't participate yet. I'm really busy at the moment as my second edition just came out an..."Thanks John. Your book discussion is a huge success. I just hope mine will have the same outcome in March. Good luck and I'm sure before Week four I'll have something to ask or say, depends, but doubt it. Your book is really amazing.
Mod
Actually enjoyed the article, it's the studying!
Kudos to anyone who treats writing as a profession.
Adele wrote: "I am also writing and reading! Writing an article for Mmed degree. I think its more difficult to deliver an article than it is to deliver a baby..."Anybody ever 'delivered' a kidney stone? I've done 13. Don't talk to me about babies, ladies!
Lisa wrote: "Adele wrote: "I am also writing and reading! Writing an article for Mmed degree. I think its more difficult to deliver an article than it is to deliver a baby..."Actually enjoyed the article, it'..."
Yes, Adele. Research is not the fun part. I love it when the research is done, the outline is down, and the muse has been notified. Ready to write!
Vicki wrote: "Who else feels that Jack is in way over his head?"I do...maybe...
Vicki's getting too fixated with Jack. I'm worried. Time for a new discussion point:This is Jan's recurring dream. It's meaning is open to interpretation. At this stage of the novel, tell me what you think the following aspects of it mean:
1)The long, straight, dusty road.
2)The boulder.
3)Why he cannot walk around it.
4)Who moves it for him?
'The dream, which visited him at intervals ever since the murder of his parents, was always the same in every detail:
Jan is walking along a dusty road, long and straight, and suddenly his path is blocked by a huge boulder, rough and immovable. For some reason not clear to him, he cannot walk around it, even though there is an open field on either side. He has to move it, or forever stay in its shadow.
He rages at the boulder, striking it and bloodying his hands before collapsing, exhausted. Time passes. He raises his head, only to find the way open before him. He is amazed, and he looks around to find the cause of his liberation. In the field to his right a man, a stranger, staggers under the load of the boulder. His shoulders and hands are bleeding. Jan wants to see his face but he cannot because the man’s head is bowed. Jan gets up, and starts walking towards the man with the boulder, and this is how the dream always ends, just as if the lights had been switched off.'
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Adele wrote: "I am also writing and reading! Writing an article for Mmed degree. I think its more difficult to deliver an article than it is to deliver a baby..."Actual..."
Yes, research is never done. I guess I'm referring to that huge slab of info. that is needed to start laying bricks. The stuff needed along the way I find doesn't break my rhythm much.
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Vicki wrote: "Who else feels that Jack is in way over his head?"I do...maybe..."
Why John, why?"
Just messing with your head. Now, leave Jack alone. Move on.
Mod
This is Jan's recurring dream. It's meaning is open to interpretation. At this stage of the novel, tell me wha..."
I've been trying to figure this dream out in 2 ways:
What does it mean to Jan?
What does John want it to mean?
It is however easier to ask John questions than it is to ask Jan. if I could speak to Jan, I'd want more detail. We know the dreaming started after he lost his folks, but what is the context- is it completely random, is it when he investigates murders, is it when he's angry, is it more frequent now?
I'd want more on the setting- is it a familiar road, is it always the same road, day or night, summer or winter, noises around him.
Then I'd like the emotions- is he happy at first, content, frustrated. When he sees the boulder is he excited at first or always frustrated, what emotion does the rescuer evoke?
The surface interpretation is that there is an obstacle in Jan's journey through life and he requires assistance in moving it.
The spin on this:
Jan's walk through life is fairly simple (the straight road).
Yet there is relatively little meaning in his current life, more in his past(the empty fields evoke his youth, there is little representation of his current life.
The boulder, I think it's an emotion: hatred, fear, emptiness that traps him in this status quo. But it also gives meaning to his life as it is the only mentionable object in this setting. I think the events of his past have led to severe repercussions making a great deal of his life meaningless without hate/fear.
He rages against it but simultaneously doesn't shift it, part of him wants it gone but part of him needs it to stay.
It's funny that he can't turn around and go back, examine the things in the past and attempt a resolution.
The figure that helps out of the blue- so he needs help to end this hatred, but the figure is not visible- is he afraid to admit that he needs help? Afraid to acknowledge it even to himself. Or does he feel that if he sees the face of the figure, he will find his rescuer.
I also think the fact that he doesn't see the rescuer's face is partly a fear of needing to admit that he needs to be rescued.
I'd love more details about his emotional response to the rescuer, my feeling is that Jan needs this boulder, it gives his life purpose; without it he's on a lonely road to nowhere.
Mod
Lisa, you are ready for exams.
Lisa wrote: "John wrote: "Vicki's getting too fixated with Jack. I'm worried. Time for a new discussion point:This is Jan's recurring dream. It's meaning is open to interpretation. At this stage of the novel..."
Lisa,
I was hoping for a particularly insightful comment from you on this one, but you have exceeded my expectations! I am blown away...and excited. You have added such depth to the character of Jan with your insights, that it is going to take me some time to work through them all.
Thank You!
I am going to step back on this one until all the comments have come in.
Obviously I had an interpretation in mind when I wrote the dream, but, as I have indicated before, such things are seldom fully-formed in the writers mind at the time they are given. I too have to work my way through the interpretation as I learn more about Jan.
The dream comes to Jan at infrequent intervals throughout his life. An important clue, however, is that it came to him while on the Boeing, looking down on the burned out shacklands below. His pain in the dream is a pain he shares with the the black, landless poor, driven from their heritage and forced to live a meaningless life of survival.
Mod
Sadly, psychology only 1 question
Vicki wrote: "John wrote: "Vicki's getting too fixated with Jack. I'm worried. Time for a new discussion point:This is Jan's recurring dream. It's meaning is open to interpretation. At this stage of the novel..."
Thanks, Vicki. I like all of those.
We'll add them to the mix and see what comes up once we have a few more opinions in. It will be interesting to see what is common and what is unique. I will reserve my own comments until then.
John,This is such a difficult scenario. Still you've chose such amazing conflict and executed it realistic. Putting yourself in their shoes definitely changes things, AGAIN, I've got a soppy story to relate to and it's one that didn't have a happy ending. Far relatives of mine which was old and fragile was murdered in their own house about fifteen years ago. They caught the perpetrator but justice isn't always enough. It left loved ones wanting more, the death penalty. Why he did that, I'll never know. I don't know his actions and I don't know him as a person but I can tell you one thing. Actions lead to various things. My relatives were racists and they called their workers by the K name, even after apartheid. That, I assume, was what triggered this new workers anger towards them. To kill them like that, don't think it was necessary and to violate their home and steal all their belongings was a bit drastic. It still happens today, we just don't hear about it as much as we used to in the beginning. The news that appears on T.V at nights are very political stuff and not what really goes on in our country. I personally, and thank God for that, haven't experience a vile attack like that. I wouldn't know the first thing to do. They've got no right to enter a home where there are children and held them at gun point. Nobody should go through that. It leaves scars that is almost near impossible to heal. It fuels anger that can't be dampen and if things are not going to change another war will break out again soon. All I'm saying pasts have a viscous cycle if you don't break the chain. It's extremely hard to forget and forgive, especially what goes on in this country.
Stepping in someone else's shoes aren't always that easy and we still don't get some answers we should get.
In Jack's case it was self defense. Definitely no doubt about that.
Andile is what I strongly believe happened in this case I've mentioned above. Can we say they are the same. No, different matters and things fueled them to fight back.
Like I said it's such a tough topic to discuss and I think all of you have done a great job giving your opinions.
I hope mine gave some input.
I'm not sure how to answer this. Gonna try.
I think that as people we have an awareness of our strengths and weaknesses. To different degrees depending on the individual of course. Perhaps we seek out those who possess the opposites, so strengths instead of weakness. So Adele and John support the bad boy on the reality show, he puts himself first and although in some ways he is appalling, in others you admire him this selfishness. I tend to say exactly what I think, and this can cause groot gemors (a big mess), so I support the more strategic character, hoping I can emulate his tact and timing.