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1/06 Les Miserables, Volume I, Book I (Part I, Book I), SPOILERS ALLOWED FOR THIS SECTION ONLY
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Zulfiya
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Jan 06, 2014 10:17AM
We are embarking on a long but rewarding journey about social justice, darkness and light, love and forgiveness. This week, we are discussing Part I, Book I. (Volume I, Book I)
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1. In the opening book of the novel, we are introduced to Charles François Myriel, the Bishop of Digne. Do you find him convincing as a character? Is he driven by mundane (poverty, food, etc) problems or by divine motives?2. We learn that the bishop provides solace and attends the execution of a convict. How does this experience change him?
3. These are the lines that preface the novel.
So long as there shall exist, by virtue of law and custom, decrees of damnation pronounced by society, artificially creating hells amid the civilization of earth, and adding the element of human fate to divine destiny; so long as the three great problems of the century— the degradation of man through pauperism, the corruption of woman through hunger, the crippling of children through lack of light— are unsolved; so long as social asphyxia is possible in any part of the world;— in other words, and with a still wider significance, so long as ignorance and poverty exist on earth, books of the nature of Les Misérables cannot fail to be of use.
Do you think they are still relevant in today's world? Are the poor still villainized, women controlled and degraded, and children deprived of education/light?
4. According to Hugo, what are the bishop's 'personal flaws'?
5. Bishop is a Royalist, but he asks the Conventionalist and the former revolutionary to bless him? Why do you think he asks for a blessing? What does this plea for a blessing stands for? Was his plea for a blessing answered?
6. Are there any passages or lines that resonated with you strongly within these opening pages?
The questions listed below are not obligatory. I listed them only to give you a certain sense of direction. You can post anything you want and share any thoughts and ideas you have.
I'll begin reading tomorrow earliest. The temptation to read it fast is great, as is the desire to read it in French. That coupled with the fact that I avoid translated books means I hesitated. But I'm counting on the discussions to reward me.
Great questions though, I have a problem with calling issues like poverty and want of food "mundane" BUT great questions! Lots to ponder!
:)
:)
Delmy =^.^= wrote: "Great questions though, I have a problem with calling issues like poverty and want of food "mundane" BUT great questions! Lots to ponder!:)"
I used 'mundane' as an opposite to 'spiritual' and 'metaphysical'; basically, in this context it means the grit of everyday life.
That is the problem with communicating via a medium and not in the immediate vicinity:-) I should have been more precise with my choice of words.
Why backpedal? No biggie. Apart from Delmy, no one cares. Thanks for the questions.
I wasn't critiquing the questions, it was a comment, my personal opinion. I read the questions and I was planning on discussing the book following the questions.
Zulfiya- they are great questions and I wasn't asking you to explain yourself or "backpedal"
I am very eager to discuss this book! Great side read! :)
Zulfiya- they are great questions and I wasn't asking you to explain yourself or "backpedal"
I am very eager to discuss this book! Great side read! :)
I do understand, Delmy. I often ask people to reword sentences because I know how much is lost in communication, especially when there is no nonverbal/body language support. What translations are you all using? Is anyone reading it in French?
Now back to the book:
I found the Bishop to be a convincing character and I thought he was driven partly by the divine/God and the everyday. I think most clergy (is that what they're called?) is supposed to follow a certain code, some self-sacrifice to put everyone else ahead of his/her needs. Now I don't know any bishops or nuns and the closest person that comes to mind is our current Pope, so I guess the Bishop embodies everything we assume clergy to be or should be.
I found the Bishop to be a convincing character and I thought he was driven partly by the divine/God and the everyday. I think most clergy (is that what they're called?) is supposed to follow a certain code, some self-sacrifice to put everyone else ahead of his/her needs. Now I don't know any bishops or nuns and the closest person that comes to mind is our current Pope, so I guess the Bishop embodies everything we assume clergy to be or should be.
Delmy =^.^= wrote: "Now back to the book:I found the Bishop to be a convincing character and I thought he was driven partly by the divine/God and the everyday. I think most clergy (is that what they're called?) is ..."
Hey, aren't those spoilers?
Zulfiya wrote: "Is anyone reading it in French?"I am thinking of it. I'm also considering that I have too many teeth. I need to pull a couple off.
No spoilers, I gave my opinion on the character and what I believe drives him. I don't think that's a spoiler, you might have a different view of him. I didn't answer anything that wasn't included in the question above.
It's 12:31 AM where I am. Goodnight ladies.
These are great questions, Zulfiya - I will need to think about these with book in hand before responding. You are giving me high expectations for this group read by opening the discussion this way - I like it! :)I am reading the translation that is posted here - the Lee Fahnestock translation. I compared some of the text of this version with another (I can't remember who the other translator was), and decided to go with this version because the writing seemed a bit more straight forward.
Good night, Luffy. Join us later. As far as the spoiler policy, we are allowed to spoil if spoilers cover the part that is being discussed. I have not specified it earlier (mea culpa), but it is a tacit law here in the group to discuss the events freely that are covered in this week's section.
Delmy =^.^= wrote: " so I guess the Bishop embodies everything we assume clergy to be or should be. "Spot on, Delmy 'SHOULD BE'. Hugo is one of the biggest humanists. He rejected Catholicism or Christianity in general and was often criticised by the church dignitaries for his stand against religious hypocrisy.
As a result, I find this part of the novel (written after Hugo's apostasy) extremely empowering. The main thing is to see Light in people regardless of their spiritual affiliation or lack of it.
Linda wrote: "I am reading the translation that is posted here - the Lee Fahnestock translation. I compared some of the text of this version with another (I can't remember who the other translator was), and decided to go with this version because the writing seemed a bit more straight forward. "Hugo's prose can be a little bit too convoluted; after all, Les Mis is the embodiment of the nineteenth century fiction.
Zulfiya wrote: "Spot on, Delmy 'SHOULD BE'.....The main thing is to see Light in people regardless of their spiritual affiliation or lack of it. "Yes, I thought the same thing. It was sad to read about the upcoming clergy who were assigned to Digne, immediately look for transfers to more wealthy regions and where they would have more opportunity for advancement. I would think that as being part of the clergy, as long as you are helping people then you would be happy doing your "job". I didn't think clergymen were on the lookout for advancement - it sounds too much like a business corporation to me.
Linda wrote:
Yes, I thought the same thing.It was sad to read about the upcoming clergy who were assigned..."
Exactly what i was thinking. I always heard of a position in the church as calling, not as a way to advancement in your life. This is why i mentioned our current Pope, as i was reading about Bishop Myriel, i couldn't help to think of how he reminded me of Pope Francis. I could see the way the church has been run in the past as well as the present how people can lose respect for the church as whole. Religious Hypocrisy is one of the things that the church has become synonymous with(and when i mention the church, it can be of any religion, i am not singling any one religion).
Yes, I thought the same thing.It was sad to read about the upcoming clergy who were assigned..."
Exactly what i was thinking. I always heard of a position in the church as calling, not as a way to advancement in your life. This is why i mentioned our current Pope, as i was reading about Bishop Myriel, i couldn't help to think of how he reminded me of Pope Francis. I could see the way the church has been run in the past as well as the present how people can lose respect for the church as whole. Religious Hypocrisy is one of the things that the church has become synonymous with(and when i mention the church, it can be of any religion, i am not singling any one religion).
A religious appointment was often a path to prestige and wealth in the past, and sought after for that reason vs. any spiritual calling. So the Bishop here is definitely cut from a different cloth (ha, ha man of the cloth, see what I did there?). I'm simultaneously reading Wolf Hall so I really have comparisons with Cardinal Wolsey in my mind who was much more about the power and monetary rewards of the position, as much or more than the spiritual.
My favorite section/quote:
"To be a saint is to be an exception; to be a true man is the rule. Err, fail, sin if you must, but be upright. To sin as little as possible is the law for men; to sin not at all is a dream for angels. All earthly things are subject to sin; it is like the force of gravity"
"To be a saint is to be an exception; to be a true man is the rule. Err, fail, sin if you must, but be upright. To sin as little as possible is the law for men; to sin not at all is a dream for angels. All earthly things are subject to sin; it is like the force of gravity"
I found the first few sections very easy to read followed by a couple of really difficult sections that went right over my head despite a rereading. From this first part I took away that the bishop is a very godly man. He appears to be very concerned about the everyday "physical" needs of his "flock". However, I think he also "lives in his head" to a large degree. By that I mean he spends time alone each day in his garden and time alone in his study each evening. I get the sense that he is pondering the great mystery and grandeur of life at these times.
Wow. I just finished this section. I'm finding it challenging, which is probably why I never got far in previous attempts. Yay for the group read. There are just so many references to events and people that have gone over my head. I do know some things about the French Revolution and Napoleon just from college history classes and such, but I feel woefully under-prepared here. Of course, I have gotten the general message and character of the Bishop down pretty well, but a lot of the other things have eluded me.
The page below contains links with extensions; the articles provide brief but sufficient analysis of the origin of the French Revolution, its development, key dates and their significance, including the terror, purges, dechristianization, and eventually the reign of Buonaparte and reaction. http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/t...
I love this description of the bishop's eccentricities: "Clearly, he had his own strange way of judging things. I suspect he acquired it from the Gospels."I am just beginning the read (five chapters completed) but so far I would say that the Bishop may be driven equally by divine and humane motives -- or that, perhaps there is no way to distinguish between these elements. I've always held the opinion that you can tell a lot about a person's character by his / her religious beliefs. The Bishop is clearly a benevolent and self-sacrificing person. From the passage that reveals his private notes from a book's margin, "Oh Thou who art!.. Solomon names thee Compassion..," we see that he has sincere religious fervor and views compassion as an extension of his religion. The Bible reveals many characteristics of the Lord, including vengeance and wrath, and the Lord is called by many names. The benevolent nature of the Bishop leads him to focus on Compassion, and thus his divine motives align with charity.
Victoria wrote: "Wow. I just finished this section. I'm finding it challenging, which is probably why I never got far in previous attempts. Yay for the group read. There are just so many references to events and pe..."I'm in the same boat with knowing that there are a lot of references going over my head. I found myself doing a bit of research while reading the first section. :)
Zulfiya wrote: "The page below contains links with extensions; the articles provide brief but sufficient analysis of the origin of the French Revolution, its development, key dates and their significance, includin..."Thank you Zulfiya! This seems like a good resource.
My favorite section/quote:"One morning, he was in his garden and thought himself alone, but his sister was walking behind him; all at once he stopped and looked at something on the ground: a large, black, hairy, horrible spider. His sister heard him say, "Poor thing! It's not his fault.""
Also in the same section:
"One day he sprained an ankle rather than crush an ant."
Zulfiya wrote: "The page below contains links with extensions; the articles provide brief but sufficient analysis of the origin of the French Revolution, its development, key dates and their significance, includin..."Thank you! I will check that out this week.
E :) wrote: ""Clearly, he had his own strange way of judging things. I suspect he acquired it from the Gospels."I, on the other hand, believe that actions, not faith, determine whether you are a good person or bad person. The other weekend, I was discussing this very quotation with my friend. Unfortunately, the evangelical wave that has swept the USA always makes me question people who consider themselves 'spiritual' and in fact are driven by motives of personal gain and economic Darwinism and criticize the current Pope for his stand against the unfettered capitalism.
I really find the Bishop a very good human being, flawed because he is a human being, but with a big heart. Hugo creates the character who is extremely likable even if some of Hugo's readers, as well as Hugo, do not share the religious beliefs of this character.
I also think that Bishop finally understands this commonality, this feature all human beings share despite their political and religious differences. That is also why his meeting with the Conventionalist was important. It marks a new step in his understanding of the world, and that is why he asks for a blessing to be a part of humanity not because of his religion but IN ADDITION to his faith, in my opinion. Faith and the interpretation of its tenets has shaped him as an individual; the conversation with the revolutionary has helped him to realize that he is a part of the humankind.
Linda wrote: ""One day he sprained an ankle rather than crush an ant." "What a lovely quotation. Just a few words can tell a story of this man!
Zulfiya wrote: I, on the other hand, believe that actions, not faith, determine whether you are a ..."
We're not in disagreement here. If you thought that was the point of my earlier post, I was completely misunderstood. The Bishop is a good person because this is his nature. Religion is not something that can be proven, and in the end it all comes down to personal choice (in my opinion). What he chooses to believe as divine purpose is in alignment with his benevolent character.
Though perhaps you are replying only to the quote, and not to me. In that case, we do not interpret this line in the same way. I do not take it as a literal assignment of his motives. What I appreciate here, and what I think this line is pointing out, is irony. A bishop is viewed as eccentric and strange, because he is self sacrificing and otherwise upholds virtues that are exalted in the gospels. ;)
That is why I like literary discussions. I think in this case we agree to slightly disagree, but we mostly agree to AGREE:-) Maybe we diverge slightly in our perception of his motives, but you are right saying that something that was viewed and is viewed like eccentric (sharing, giving, loving, forgiving, nurturing, supporting) is actually clearly stated in the book Christians consider sacred.
It is a great quote. I actually found it here in goodreads database and 'liked' it because it so powerful. It is both direct and ironic; it exposes hypocrisy of selfish people and shows compassion and love in other people.
Zulfiya wrote: "That is why I like literary discussions. I think in this case we agree to slightly disagree, but we mostly agree to AGREE:-) Maybe we diverge slightly in our perception of his motives, but you ar..."
Yes I think so too. :) I haven't yet read about the revolutionary and am looking forward to this section. ( I'm attempting to read this very slowly so that I can keep pace with the group discussion, for once! )
I'm wondering if someone can explain what this passage means? I know I'm missing a reference to something, or I don't get what the different hats are supposed to represent. Thanks!!"One day a dowager, of the impertinent sort that believe themselves witty, remarked, "Monseigneur, people ask when Your Lordship will wear the red bonnet." "Ah ha! That is a mighty color," replied the bishop. "Luckily, those who hate it in a bonnet worship it in a chapeau.""
I think the red hat is a reference to cardinal. I think.
Linda wrote: "I'm wondering if someone can explain what this passage means? I know I'm missing a reference to something, or I don't get what the different hats are supposed to represent. Thanks!!"One day a d..."
I haven't gotten to this part yet, so I'm unsure of the context, but wearing the red bonnet may mean supporting the Revolution: reference. And I do think the wearer of the red chapeau refers to a cardinal.
Thanks for the input, and also for the reference about the red bonnet, that was really helpful and makes sense now. I thought one had to do with a cardinal, but I wasn't sure about the bonnet.
Zulfiya wrote: "Paragraph 2 about Defarge and the red Phrygian cap. http://dickens.stanford.edu/dickens/a..."
Thanks! The namings on the Parisian map is interesting too.
1. In the opening book of the novel, we are introduced to Charles François Myriel, the Bishop of Digne. Do you find him convincing as a character? Is he driven by mundane (poverty, food, etc) problems or by divine motives?I do find him convincing. I have met people who could, in that time in France, might be akin to the Bishop. I know for a fact that a few men might answer to being similar in thought, but more easily, in the action of abnegation and asceticism and austerity.
I think that with his training coupled with his age, he cannot be viscerally assaulted by suffering. His religious training muffles the evil in the country. His scripture gives his world sanity, that's my take on the matter. He is able to make sense of his off balanced society.
2. We learn that the bishop provides solace and attends the execution of a convict. How does this experience change him?
I was not aware a change was written in this part. I don't remember...
3. These are the lines that preface the novel.
So long as there shall exist, by virtue of law and custom, decrees of damnation pronounced by society, artificially creating hells amid the civilization of earth, and adding the element of human fate to divine destiny; so long as the three great problems of the century— the degradation of man through pauperism, the corruption of woman through hunger, the crippling of children through lack of light— are unsolved; so long as social asphyxia is possible in any part of the world;— in other words, and with a still wider significance, so long as ignorance and poverty exist on earth, books of the nature of Les Misérables cannot fail to be of use.
Do you think they are still relevant in today's world? Are the poor still villainized, women controlled and degraded, and children deprived of education/light?
The world was called a global village in the 80's. Nowadays that seems truer. But poverty is still like a far flung Empire. Finding suffering is like finding good music...some people get it readily, while others have to dig deep to come in contact with it. But things could still be worse. There are less casualties in wars, the poor in many parts are less indigent. I've read somewhere that India is outsourcing programming to the USA. Science is progressing fast. But suffering can be anywhere. It's like Batman saying, "anyone can be Batman". He's not saying anyone can replace him, but he's saying his dual identity makes him anonymous. Similarly, poverty can be found anywhere, but it's less chronic in some places.
4. According to Hugo, what are the bishop's 'personal flaws'?
I don't know. Sorry. Someone please provide. I missed that.
5. Bishop is a Royalist, but he asks the Conventionalist and the former revolutionary to bless him? Why do you think he asks for a blessing? What does this plea for a blessing stands for? Was his plea for a blessing answered?
I don't know if his plea was answered but I think that he needed the blessing. He needed it to make something happen. He needs to have a lot of stuff to think about in his sanctuary. He needs to find all men equal.
6. Are there any passages or lines that resonated with you strongly within these opening pages?
Yes, when G____ is discussing God with Myriel. The atheist in me reared its pretty little head:P
Luffy wrote: "I don't know if his plea was answered but I think that he needed the blessing. He needed it to make something happen. He needs to have a lot of stuff to think about in his sanctuary. He needs to find all men equal."Spot on. I think the bishop needed this blessing to get a certain 'secular' communion of being a part of the bigger world.
As far as the discussion of God, I think Hugo makes the character (the Bishop) appealing both to spiritual people and secular people because he was on both sides. He started as a practising Catholic, became a non-practising Catholic, later in his life he became a spiritualist, and later he called himself a Freethinker.
I very much enjoyed this section, though (like others) I felt a lot of the historical references went over my head. I read sentences like "He was witty and just enough of a scholar to think himself a disciple of Epicurus, though he was probably simply a product of Pigault-Lebrun" and feel the need to look up Pigault-Lebrun (a contemporary playwright, it turns out). But then I realize that if I continue to look up everything I don't understand, I may as well be reading a 5000 page novel instead of "only" 1500 pages!I fell in love with the Bishop as a character on page 5 when he gave up his house to the hospital patients, and even added a marker to the exact passage. I do find him convincing as a character and really have a respect for how he is putting his beliefs and duties above "moving ahead" or whether or not people think he is eccentric.
And yes, I liked his conversation with the Conventionalist. It seemed to have opened his eyes to more of the world. It seems like a turning point in his beliefs.
Finally, some favorite quotes of mine from this section:
[Madame Baptistine] was the incarnation of the word "respectable," whereas to be "venerable," a woman should also be a mother.
Teach the ignorant as much as you can; society is guilty in not providing universal free education, and it must answer for the night it produces. If the soul is left in darkness, sins will be committed. The guilty one is not he who commits the sin, but the one who causes the darkness.
"Madame Magliore," the Bishop replied, "you are mistaken. The beautiful is as useful as the useful." He added after a moments pause, "Perhaps more so."
And though it doesn't make a great quote on its own, I like when they are talking about the woman who was tricked into denouncing her lover by lying to her and making her believe her lover was cheating on her. The Bishop asked where the man and woman would be tried, and after receiving his answer he asks, "And where is the king's prosecutor to be tried?"
Excellent selection of quotations, Deana. It is quite obvious that Victor Hugo is using this novel to philosophise and and as outlet for his political and social views, but when his views resonate strongly with progressive views of his readers, the novel does not have the feeling of it being too political or too instructive.
As far as references and cultural allusions, it is always difficult to read books that contain numerous historical references. I mostly check the ones that I think are important and will obstruct my comprehension if I do not decode the message properly.
I am not saying that it is not possible, but it might require a tremendous effort, and it seems to have a habit of killing the pleasure reading brings.
Zulfiya wrote: "later in his life he became a spiritualist, and later he called himself a Freethinker. "Did that happen? I think he was still a believer.
I am talking about Hugo.
Pronouns are tricky :-)
Zulfiya wrote: "Pronouns are tricky :-)"Lol!
Deana wrote: "But then I realize that if I continue to look up everything I don't understand, I may as well be reading a 5000 page novel instead of "only" 1500 pages!" I thought the same thing!! I've read a little bit ahead and there is a chapter of a few pages which pretty much all went over my head because of all the historical references.
