Dresden Files discussion
Just what exactly is the single entity made up of the sidhe Mothers?
i personally think that since they have odin as kringle who is also a fey king btw that there is a possibility that combined they might be mimir, the original oracle of norse mythology, she actually predates odin and had true intilectus, like about everything, odin removed her head in his quest for knowledge in addition to sacraficing his eye and hanging himselfe from the branches of ygdrasil (the life tree) and removing her head did not kill her because she is eternal, it just kinda turned her into 2 seperate entities so... its a possibility... btw since mothers winter and summer give the mantles of power to the other queens, ladies, and knights, are their powers mantles or are they just seriously badass?
Mother Winter is the original Mother Winter, and has been so from the beginning. Mother Summer is not the original Mother Summer. Mother Winter is Mab's biological mother. He hints that he should know what they are, not that they are one thing. They are two entities. At no time do they say you should figure out what ONE thing we once were.
Mod
Just off the top of my head, what if Mother Summer is Eve and Mother Winter is Lilith? Depending on which religious text you read these were the first two women created. I won't pretend to know the details, but I'm sure Butcher has read up on them.One thing I would like to know is where in the canon does it say that Odin/Kringle is a fey King? I don't remember that being in there.
William wrote: "Stutley wrote: "Just off the top of my head, what if Mother Summer is Eve and Mother Winter is Lilith? Depending on which religious text you read these were the first two women created. I won't pre..."I've read it here and there that Kringle is the Winter King but never in one of the books or short stories. I have assumed this was something taken from the RP but I would like to know for certain.
In Cold Days at Harry's birthday party Kringle does strongly imply without stating absolutely that he is part of Winter. I believe he said something to the effect that he makes his home there. Other than that I see no connection between him and the Winter Court.
Mari wrote: "Mother Winter is the original Mother Winter, and has been so from the beginning. Mother Summer is not the original Mother Summer. Mother Winter is Mab's biological mother. He hints that he should k..."I think I remember it being said that Mother winter is mab's actual mother, but I don't remember the rest. Can you point to it where that information is? Which book?
I've been curious about the Sidhe mothers as well. Is their power a mantle that can be passed on from one vessel to the next? Mab told Harry that she was mortal once and I was like, 'what! What is that supposed to mean?' I thought Mab was always Mab. When she tells Harry that, it makes me think the person that Harry knows as Mab, is herself, only a vessel of the mantle of the Winter Queen.
Natasha wrote: "I've been curious about the Sidhe mothers as well. Is their power a mantle that can be passed on from one vessel to the next? Mab told Harry that she was mortal once and I was like, 'what! What is ..."That's the impression I got, as well. It also suggests that before Mab became the Winter Queen, she was the Winter Lady. And remember that Mab and Titania have not spoken since Hastings (1066). So she has lived with the influence of the mantel for a very long time. Long enough for her personality to be overwritten.
Have you read the Sandman series, graphic novels by Neil Gaiman? Throughout there is a three in one, one as three entity. It is the fates, the kindly ones, maiden/mother/crone, Astarte... So many different triple goddesses. I wonder if it will be something like that. But there are three fairy queens on each court, but only two courts, so it is more difficult to see how it works. Unless there is a yet unseen third of each in the Wyldfae?
With so much talk about the fairy queens, has anyone wonder where is the fairy king? Where is Oberon?
Marco wrote: "With so much talk about the fairy queens, has anyone wonder where is the fairy king? Where is Oberon?"Isn't Oberon tied to Titania through myth? I know he is featured in Shakespeare's 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'. Any faery king tied to Mab through legend? Perhaps we know him better these days as Old Man Winter.
I may be wrong, but as I know he is tied to Titania only in Shakespeare's play. In medieval folklore he is just a king of fairy, with no additional ties.
We've already met Oberon, an older name for him is Alberich - another spelling of elf king, later translated as erlkönig.
Ryan wrote: "We've already met Oberon, an older name for him is Alberich - another spelling of elf king, later translated as erlkönig."thank you, he is the fey king that does not side with either and rules his own court of wyld fey and with kringle being odin, he is more of a visiting dignitary, and he makes his home in winter because the home of the norse, his patroned peoples, is a frigid land like winter... skin games is taking forever to come out... just saying
Stutley wrote: "Natasha wrote: "I've been curious about the Sidhe mothers as well. Is their power a mantle that can be passed on from one vessel to the next? Mab told Harry that she was mortal once and I was like,..."But Mab is the biological daughter of Mother Winter.
Marco wrote: "With so much talk about the fairy queens, has anyone wonder where is the fairy king? Where is Oberon?"He is the Erlking, and he is tied to neither court.
Where was it stated that Mab was the biological daughter of Mother Winter? I don't doubt you, I just must have missed that. I thought Sarrisa and Maeve were Mab's biologically, but I didn't remember reading that about Mother Winter.
Mari wrote: "Stutley wrote: "Natasha wrote: "I've been curious about the Sidhe mothers as well. Is their power a mantle that can be passed on from one vessel to the next? Mab told Harry that she was mortal once..."Mari, I don't recall that being stated explicitly or implicitly in the series. For all we know, Mother Summer could be the biological mother of both Mab and Titania. In fact, I think that is the way Butcher will go with the story. But it is just my opinion and I have no information to support it.
It's possible that Mab and Titianna were like Lily and Fix; half-human and half-fairie. Mothers Winter and Summer may have had some fun times in their youth, lol.
Mari, it is Mother Summer who implies they are the same being, when discussing the names he used to call Mother Winter, in Cold Days Chapter, she says 'you've guessed the name of one of her masks, not our most powerful name.' Our. As in they share a name.
Chapter 33. Sorry, dropped the number off!
My guess is that the entities name was Lilith now it's (Rhea)Gaia. I just cant wait to find out
Natasha wrote: "It's possible that Mab and Titianna were like Lily and Fix; half-human and half-fairie. Mothers Winter and Summer may have had some fun times in their youth, lol."And in Cold days doesn't Mab say she was mortal once?
Yes she did, I think it was stated multiple times throughout the book.
@Cherie and Myst. I noticed that too. I like Mab and am curious about her.Jim Butcher did an AMA on Reddit recently and one of his answers was that Mothers Summer and Winter are biological twins, Mab and Titania are biological twins, and there was another set of twins, one of which was Maeve. I can't be certain about who Maeve's twin was/is but she's in Cold Days.
Personally, I think that just deepened the mystery of who these Sidhe women are.
Natasha wrote: "...and there was another set of twins, one of which was Maeve. I can't be certain about who Maeve's twin was/is but she's in Cold Days..."Maeve's twin is Sarissa---the changeling girl who was Harry's "nurse." and who ended up saddled with Lily's mantle.
actually Sharon I don't remember it saying they were twins, just sisters - am I incorrect?
Cherie wrote: "actually Sharon I don't remember it saying they were twins, just sisters - am I incorrect?"I believe when Harry and Karin said they were identical twins the two replied at the same time that they were not identical. This implies they are fraternal twins, though it is not stated explicitly.
They are identical, but not identical in thought process and such, they consider themselves different in that sense more likely. If I remember right, when Sarissa was nursing Harry, he always felt she looked VERY familiar. Then when Karin and Harry said they were identical, they both burst out they weren't. Another part I remember was when he did that picturing Maeve without the blue appearance she would look exactly like Sarissa...its been a while since I read Cold Days, might need to go back over it.
Maeve and Sarrisa father was a famous Austrian composer per Butcher reddit AMA.
Shahbaz wrote: "They are identical, but not identical in thought process and such, they consider themselves different in that sense more likely. If I remember right, when Sarissa was nursing Harry, he always felt..."I think I am going to have to disagree with you on this point until we get confirmation one way or the other.
My reason is simply that fraternal twins can look so much alike as to be taken for identical. As example, take the Olsen twins. Arguably the most famous twins in the U.S. Ashley and Mary-Kate are fraternal. Their facial features and other physical characteristics are so close that many people mistakenly believe they are identical.
Maybe the two sidhe mothers are the different aspects of fate or maybe they together are Giaia?
Mike wrote: "Butcher kind of answers this in Skin Game [spoilers removed]"True...you're probably right, but the number i always associated with her is 3. If there was just 1 Faerie Court, then she would make perfect sense...
The spoiler talk starts. Thank goodness I bitched out Amazon for taking their sweet time in processing my order. My copy of Skin Game should arrive by the end of this week rather than the next. That's when I'll be all over this place.
As far I know, Mother Winter and Mother Summer are not twins. Though, we do know that Mother Summer is not the original Mother Summer.Butcher confirmed on Reddit only that
- Mab and Titania are twins
- Mave and Sarissa are fraternal twins
- The father of Maeve and Sarissa is a mortal austrian composer. The guesses of most fans are by now here Schubert, because he wrote "Erlkönig" (Erlking).
We also know that Mab, Maeve, Sarissa were once mortal. It follows to reason that the same is true for Titania and Aurora.
(view spoiler)
Mike wrote: "Well [spoilers removed]"I thought the same thing initially, and I won’t rule that out, but.......
Then I thought back to Proven Guilty, when Dresden is in Arctus Tor Ice Prison/garden, he describes 3 identical looking fae standing back to back, shoulders touching, forming a triangle holding hands and I thought they were her. Only have to wait another year or 3 to find out for sure. I'm sure I will have a few more conspiracy theories by then.
Gotta go buy the Audio to Skin Game also, and hear Marsters
Geli wrote: "As far I know, Mother Winter and Mother Summer are not twins. Though, we do know that Mother Summer is not the original Mother Summer.Butcher confirmed on Reddit only that
- Mab and Titania are t..."
Mortals?
What are "mortals"? Anyone with Human blood? From Earth reality? Do fae consider someone like, Kincaid mortal? Or is it anything that can die? Can't fae be destroyed/die? I get a little lost when they talk about mortals. Changelings are considered mortal, but they are not human.
When Changelings, "Choose", are they choosing to take up some sort of mantle and therefore becoming something/someone different that is eternal?
Sun and moon, light and dark, heat and cold personified in human form
I just had a thought. In 'Cold Days' Titania tells Harry that Mab follows the wisdom of the mind. She then tells him that she (Titania) follows the wisdom of the heart. This seemed natural and I sort of missed it until now. If you consider all we know about personalities in the Winter Court, which of them works on logic and reason? Only Mab. I'm not saying the others are raving lunatics, devoid of reason. I'm just thinking they work more in the realm of hunger, desire and need than they do in cold logic. Does this suggest to anyone else that Mab may have had a strong enough will to overcome the Mantle of the Winter Queen? I don't think she is completely out of its influence. I do think she has a large portion of her original personality still intact. It was when she was angry that she acted like the rest of her court. She was more prone to outbursts and violence. Once she settled some of her score she regained her control and reasserted her logical approach to combatting her enemies.
Bear wrote: "Mortals? What are "mortals"? Anyone with Human blood? From Earth reality? Do fae consider someone like, Kincaid mortal? Or is it anything that can die? Can't fae be destroyed/die? I get a little lost when they talk about mortals....""Mortal" stems from the Latin mortalis which means "death."
In most fantasy, anyone is considered "mortal" who ages and dies. Some species may be longer-lived than others, but the one thing that mortals share is that they grow old and die of natural causes. Butcher says over and over that Harry is mortal, even though he can live for hundreds of years. I think this would also be true most changelings.
"Immortals," which can be translated as "the undying," do not die of old age. They grow to adulthood and then just stop aging and continue. I think it's one of the reasons that most immortal races in literature tend not to be very fecund. If they might be able to live forever, then there has to be some system in place to limit their numbers, so a low birthrate would be necessary. By the same reasoning, most fantasy world-builders allow that sufficient trauma can defeat even the undying people. True immortality---an inability to die (or remain dead) is usually limited to gods and goddesses in most literature that I've run across. Even Tolkien's immortal elves could be killed in battle.
I get the feeling that Butcher's changeling rules are not set in stone because they seem to switch around. It might be a mantle that's bestowed, or not. Maybe it's about the strength of the immortal parent's genetics? If the immortal parent's genes are strong enough to bestow sufficient magic on the offspring, they can choose to live as fae and become immortal? Serissa kind of blows this for me, though. It's confusing.
Sharon, they one that confused me was Molly? It kind of made me believe she was the daughter of the dragon more, but up to the point she received the mantle I thought you had to be at least .5 fae.Does this mean "wizards" are of fae lineage?
Bear wrote: "Sharon, they one that confused me was Molly? It kind of made me believe she was the daughter of the dragon more, but up to the point she received the mantle I thought you had to be at least .5 fae...."The fae call the wizards "starborn" and I find that interesting. It implies that the wizards are a separate race from humans and fae. Generally I don't think the wizards have fae blood, but someone suggested on one of the discussions I've read that this might not be true of Harry. We don't know the identity of Harry's grandmother and if she was fae that might explain Margaret's natural abilities with the Nevernever and the Ways.
Molly is human and wizard, so she isn't a faerie changeling. I feel certain of that. Some have speculated that Molly is part dragon, that Siriothrax had knocked Charity up before Michael first rescued her, but I don't know. I hope that isn't the case and that she is Michael's blood. You do NOT have to be fae to take a mantle. Most of the past knights were white-bread humans. What is required is a 'connection' to faerie, some sort of familiarity or contact, which Molly has thanks to Leah's magical tutelage while Harry was "dead."
My confusion with Serissa is that she didn't choose to be fae, yet she appears to be immortal. She clearly wasn't aging. Well, maybe she was, but not fast. On the other hand, if her mother is the Winter Queen, that implies that there is a lot of power in her blood and power does seem to slow the aging process. Meh! This is too complicated for me to think about right now. I need coffee!
@ Sharon... I was thinking that Dresden was the only "starborn" revealed so far in the series. I thought they were a rare type of wizard
Bear wrote: "@ Sharon... I was thinking that Dresden was the only "starborn" revealed so far in the series. I thought they were a rare type of wizard"I don't think so. I got the impression that "starborn" refers to all wizards. And they are different from vanilla humans, what with their cellular regeneration, extended lifespans, and ability to tap into magic. I think that they are a separate (if parallel) species.
Sharon wrote: "Bear wrote: "Sharon, they one that confused me was Molly? It kind of made me believe she was the daughter of the dragon more, but up to the point she received the mantle I thought you had to be at ..."Sharon, as far as I can recall, Harry is the only character in the whole series referred to as a "Starborn". I think it is a special designation having to do with the time and place Harry was born. As Bob said in 'Cold Days', it's a conjunction and unusual things happen during conjunctions.
It could also be that the Sidhe Mothers represent the apex of a power structure that is similar in design and origin to the Triple Goddess deity of Neopaganism.The Princesses = The Madien [least amount of power]
The Queens = The Mother [somewhere in the middle]
The Mothers = The Crone [most powerful]
The Fae (most noticeably Sidhe) are so very clearly divided into 2 different branches. The Unseelie and the Seelie so the mantles of power are all divided into two separate parts like flip sides of the same coin as a direct reflection of the race itself.
Also some of the taunts Mother Winter tosses at Harry could be her way of warning him that the power of the Winter Knight mantle he has newly aquired originated and flows from her directly.
Having read Skin Games this could also be why Michael is reminded of Molly while viewing a statue that is transitioning between the Triple Goddess aspects during his visit to Hades' vault.
I believe that the fae court are very definitely meant to embody the Triple Goddess concept. But I think "starborn" is a reference to the 5-pointed star that those with magic ability use. And they aren't so much a separate species, but I think it's more like a recessive gene. So they used the term "starborn" much as we would say "redhead" or "left-handed."But, as with all speculation, I could be miles off the mark!
My only theory is when Harry once assessed the power of the Winter Mother's will when she held him down in order to throw a cleaver at his head. He likened the sheer power behind her will to the words "and let there be light." Which has led me to believe to a degree that the Mothers, when united, could be the personification of life itself.