Feedback Forum - What Do We Want to Read

[Frances, Moderator]

I agree with Zulfiya's comments in message 15-I like the idea of the 3 cornerstones of the period and would prefer to concentrate our reading in British/French/Russian literature, and would suggest 1-2 books/year from other countries &/or of lesser known authors.

Trollope, Dumas, Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Scott would be choices for me.

Looking forward to continued good reads for 2014.

[Lynnm]

I'm not a flag waver by any stretch of the imagination :-) but what happened to American literature in this time period? Some of the great literature of this time period in English comes from the U.S.

I'm not sure why we don't read many American novels but outside of Henry James, we rarely read it here.

Twain, Wharton, Hawthorne, Beecher Stowe, Poe, Melville, Fenimore Cooper, Alcott, etc.

And if we were to add poets - and we don't read the poets here - but just saying, you would have Frost, Dickinson, Whitman.

Essayists - Thoreau and Emerson.

Certainly, the truly outstanding American novels don't come until the modernist and post-modernist periods, but to leave out American writers as part of our cornerstone is a bit perplexing.

And quite frankly, if you asked the average person here to list Russian writers from the 19th century, they would probably stop at Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, and Chekhov.

Not that we don't want to learn about other Russian writers, but again, to leave out the Americans when we could off the top of our head list so many writers is again strange.

[Lily]

Renee wrote: "Checking Amazon now for Dickens biography. I'm assuming its CD:A Life, not The Invisible Woman. Correct? Both are available for purchase and I don't want to spend my cash frivolously."

Renee -- these links (compliments of our tea shop thread) may be of interest:

http://flavorwire.com/431549/the-invi...

Also: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/25/mov...

Edited 1:35 EST

[Deborah, Moderator]

I agree that Americans need to be included. At one point, doing a project similar to Dickens but for Twain.

[Pip]

I would like (rather nervously) to add my tuppence ha'penny's worth to the initial discussion about what kind of books we should be reading. Whereas I partly agree that time is too short to spend on mediocre literature, I would also put the question: how can we appreciate what is really great if we have nothing to compare it with?
I read Carmilla and enjoyed it. Knowing that it influenced Bram Stoker before he wrote Dracula helped to put the evolving Gothic genre in order for me. Gothic is very much part of the society whose timeframe the group has set itself and, frankly, it's refreshing to try something other than the Big D and the Big F.

I had never heard of the Confessions of A Justified Sinner before it came up here. Again, I am enjoying it and wouldn't class it as second-rate ( although I'll need to get onto the re telling of the story before I can judge). I like the idea of trying authors from other countries and if this first one isn't to everyone's taste, that shouldn't be a reason not to keep travelling around the literary world.

Simultaneously, I have David Copperfield to feed my need for Dickens, and if I had more time I'd have thrown myself into the Forsyte and Zola projects too.

Ok, long burble over. I think what I'm trying to say is that a mix is good. Yes, I think our main attention should be focused on what are universally understood to be the greats, but the occasional dip into contemporary genre and lesser-read authors should be part of our diet too.

I think that currently we have a good variety and range, as Renée pointed out. Not everyone has to read everything - and, of course, if you find a book awful, that makes the discussion more piquant :-)

[Pip]

PS My final point was intended to be a hats off to our moderators for providing us not just with such excellent book discussion, but also for riding so well the odd squalls and squabbles that come up occasionally and - well - moderating us! Not an easy job.

[Renee]

Hear, Hear, Pip! Cheers to the Moderators! And many thanks for creating a place to chat about lit and the ideas it prompts. Hooray for this harbor from the sea of everyday mundanity.

[Deborah, Moderator]

As one of your moderators, I appreciate your comments. I personally think Silver and Zulfiya do amazing jobs. They amaze me every day. I haven't put my viewpoint of what we should be reading because I wanted all of you to feel comfortable to voice yours.

My personal viewpoint is this. I enjoyed the last few books we've read. I am also really enjoying the one we are reading now. I love the variety. Yet, I completely understand the frustration of members who didn't like or want to read that selection. I think I would be really frustrated if the book I really wanted to read didn't win the vote, and then the book chosen showed little discussion in the threads. Our current selection had 18 people vote for it, less than half of that number have participated. We are still in week one, and we all do read at different rates. I'm hoping more will join the discussion.

I know when we vote we all have the intention to read the book, and sometimes life does get in the way so you can't participate or read that book. I think all of us as members need to be sensitive to the fact of participating and voting. Ok, I'm getting off my soapbox now.

I feel very lucky to be part of a group that is filled with diverse people who always make me use my brain, see things from different perspectives, remind me to look deeper. I actually like reading the comments of people who don't like the book because it offers me a different viewpoint. So thank you for giving me these many gifts.

[Daisy]

Deborah wrote: "I actually like reading the comments of people who don't like the book because it offers me a different viewpoint."

I enjoy this too, particularly if I struggle with a book or am not impressed.

My stance has been, if I can't say anything nice, not to say anything, but perhaps I will change this.

It can be eye-opening to view a book through others' eyes.

This happened in the case of Carmilla. This story by Fanu was difficult for me because I found there to be so much to the story that was left unanswered and not explained. Who were certain characters who seemed to appear and disappear ("mother in carriage" or "the man in black")? What was the point of certain behaviors? Why didn't the father get any sort of idea of what was happening when, to my mind, there were so many blatant clues? It just felt like the book was unfinished and that Fanu needed to go over it a few more times.

Reading other peoples' comments has brought about more appreciation for my read of the book.

Deborah wrote: "Members need to be sensitive to the fact of participating and voting."

I also notice that people nominate books but don't participate in the book reads.

Edit:

The thread discussions are already pretty interesting. And, often I won't contribute to, or sometimes even read the thread, until I've read a certain amount of the book or have it finished. Perhaps this is true of others too?

[Denise]

Well, just my two cents worth, then. I belong to several other groups that read just the classics. The great classics, ad nauseam. This group, according to the description is "for discerning readers looking to discover, explore...literary periods and movements; major and minor authors and their works...etc." I joined quite a while ago to discover books that I wasn't going to hear about in the Bronte, Austen, Hardy heavy clubs. Those are great too, but this is the one place I've found where you can dig a bit deeper. So some of it doesn't turn out so good- it's an experience. I just tried reading Vanity Fair, and thought it was horrible. I do vote in the polls, and when a book wins that I'm willing to give a chance, I read it. I don't usually participate because I feel like I'm talking to myself. My fault, I'm sure. But I do read them. I'm not trying to sound awful, but surely I'm not the only one that feels this way.

[Renee]

Denise-

I've found this group to be very responsive, but it takes a while. We're all from different places, time zones, and read at a different pace. I hope you'll consider adding more of your "cents" in future. You're really not talking to yourself ( not that there's anything wring with that).

[Lynnm]

Not picking on Denise. :-) But I rarely feel like I'm talking to myself. Maybe it is because I mostly participate in the Dickens Project. We've all been at it for awhile, and have nice conversations.

Also, if you respond directly to what others have said, it often sparks a conversation.

And even if no one responds to a particular post of mine, I like getting my thoughts down on what I've just read. Maybe it's a leftover from when I got my Master's and we had to write a page or two after every reading.

[Lynnm]

One last thought. I've joined other groups, and this is one of the few where people actually engage in any type of in-depth discussion around themes, etc. In most other groups, the conversation revolves around, I liked it, I didn't like it. Needless to say, I didn't stay with any of those other groups.

[Deborah, Moderator]

I have had the experience that Denise has had of feeling like you are talking to yourself. I try to keep in mind that some people may be reading and watching the posts but not writing posts. I, also like Denise, pick and choose what I want to read. I do choose to read mostly books I haven't read or really loved and want to revisit.

I've also had Lynn's experience of other groups of I liked it or I didn't and was sorely disappointed. I love the discussions we get into. And I dislike the book, character, etc. is a very valid point that should be aired.

[Lily]

@60 Daisy wrote: "...My stance has been, if I can't say anything nice, not to say anything, but perhaps I will change this..."

@65 Deborah wrote: "...And I dislike the book, character, etc. is a very valid point that should be aired. ..."

These comments have been sitting with me for a few days and hours. Let me see if I can put a cogent thought or two on our "table."

Was reminded of this conversation by just now encountering this quotation:

"Better to praise and share than blame and ban. The communion between reviewer and his public is based upon the presumption of certain possible joys in reading, and all our discriminations should curve toward that end."

John Updike

Open for remainder of discussion: (view spoiler)[

I suspect many of us (especially those of us who are women?) were brought up under or at least encountered the view "If you can't say something good about somebody, don't say anything at all." This admonishment is intended to pertain to real people, I suspect, but it is natural that it should carry over to fictional characters.

In an entirely independent vein on the topic of judging characters and/or their actions: many of you know that one of the characteristics for which this year's Nobel Prize winner, Alice Munro, is noted is her non-judgmental presentation of characters and their stories, some of the characters not so savory and some of their stories not particularly laudatory. Some of us believe she calls out for a similar stance from her readers.

I suspect what stops some of us sometimes from judgmental statements is the injunction, "judge not lest ye be judged." Our judgments often reflect on ourselves as much as they do on what we are judging.

Yet, the necessity to judge is inherent in being human. I firmly believe that reading, especially of good literature and diverse solid non-fiction, can aid us in developing our skills of judgment.

So, where is this wandering? Well, just one final observation here, and that said, I'd love to hear other perspectives out there.

This one comes from reading child-rearing and teaching tracts. The suggestion is to neither praise the child: "Oh, you're so good," nor to chastise along the lines of "What a naughty child (bad girl, bad boy?!) you've been." The better alternatives have not always been sharply distinguishable, but they seem to be best where the feedback can be based on the consequences of what has been observed: "Mrs. X considered your shoveling her sidewalk as so kind," or "As coach, I am disappointed with (furious about?) our loss tonight. I thought we knew how to handle that kind of offense." It seems the advice is not to necessarily stay away from feelings and to dwell only on reason and actions, but to own those feelings as one's own, rather than to impose them on others.
(hide spoiler)]

I am not always certain how, even whether, to do all this in real life, let alone in relation to characters and stories. But, I'm choosing to put it out here for discussion and reaction.

[Deborah, Moderator]

I can on,y speak for myself on this one. First, when I'm moderating I try to present neither a positive or negative viewpoint nor my own opinion. Instead, I try to get members thinking and expressing their views.

I love a good discussion when it stays as a good discussion and not personalized. I think somebody not enjoying a particular book should be able to voice that along with why they aren't enjoying the read or character,etc. I guess I see it more as critical thinking and discussion of viewpoints rather than judging. Yet, you are correct, judgement is involved.

[Deborah, Moderator]

P.s. I love Alice Munro.

[Denise]

Renee wrote: "Denise-

I've found this group to be very responsive, but it takes a while.

Thanks for responding, Renee and Lynnm. ;) I'd like to add to what I said, this is my favorite group. I've gotten a lot out of it.

[Daisy]

Lily wrote: "The better alternatives have not always been sharply distinguishable, but they seem to be best where the feedback can be based on the consequences of what has been observed. .... The advice is not to necessarily stay away from feelings and to dwell only on reason and actions, but to own those feelings as one's own."

This is a lovely idea/sentiment/attribute. But, for me admittedly, not a well developed one. Goodreads forums are a place where that can happen. Thank you.

Deborah wrote: "I love a good discussion when it stays as a good discussion and not personalized."

Me too!

[Wendel]

I tend to skip the five star reviews on Amazon to go straight for the more interesting four and three star stuff: there is no discussion without pros and cons. And because our opinions usually surface as feelings, there should be room to investigate these too. To keep the heat down basic civility is of course essential.

But this thread, as I understand it, started as a debate on the merits of a “deeper” selection from major and minor English originals, versus a ‘broader’ compilation from the international canon. There seem to be good arguments for both points of view, and I do not think that either choice would necessarily lead to second-rate titles any time soon.

Personally I would probably participate more often in a ‘broad’ scheme. Which I would not limit to the English, French and Russian classics. What about the Scandinavians? Ibsen and Strindberg, but also Bjørnsen, Lie and Pontoppidan.* Or the Germans: Heine, Hoffmann, Stifter and Storm for instance? Not to forget Prus, Couperus, Manzoni, Deledda, Pérez Galdós and Eca de Queirós? There is so much quality!

In the end however, the main question is to get and keep the discussion going. Which depends, I suppose, not only (or even mainly?) on the choice of authors. Hm, it seems I'm back where I started.

* Nobel price winner of 1917, there will be a new English translation of his major work. If it is not as expensive as the present one, it will be on my TBR as soon as it is published. See: http://www.academia.edu/3482324/Henri...

[Deborah, Moderator]

Wendell, you've made very good points indeed. I, too, love Ibsen. Some of the others I have not yet read. Remember to put the books that interest you on our to be read shelf.

[Silver]

It is a very difficult line to tread to try and offer variety and expose ourselves and our readers to books of which many of us my not have previously heard of and still appealing to the general tastes and preferences of the members.

When books like Jane Eyre(which is a wonderful book by the way, so not intended as criticism) to name one rather well read classic are consistently chosen as group reads we get the fraction of people who comment upon way it seems only the most well known and popular books are chosen of which many of us may already have read.

I do try and provide a balance, and allow the members the opportunity to read the books they want to read while still introducing the group to classical works of a more obscure and lesser known variety. But of course doing this you do run into the problem of reading books of which might not have wide and popular appeal.

[Silver]

Also, I do agree with the sentiment expressed of introducing more American literature into our reading. I rather like the idea of a Twain project, I just think that having three projects going at a time might be a bit much in addition to our regular group reads.

[Deborah, Moderator]

Silver, I for one, have enjoyed the variety and introduction to authors I may not have chosen by myself. While I found the Wells disturbing, I'm glad I read both books, and they made me think about things differently. I enjoyed Carmilla too because it was lighter and shorter - a good choice for a busy holiday month. And I'm enjoying our current read.

[Silver]

Deborah wrote: "Silver, I for one, have enjoyed the variety and introduction to authors I may not have chosen by myself. While I found the Wells disturbing, I'm glad I read both books, and they made me think about..."

Thank you very much, I appreciate your support, as well as your help and your insights. Of course I am always open if you have any ideas on how things can be done differently in the group to improve.

Most the choices I have made in regards to our book choices and group reads have been in response to comments made by fellow members and discussions I have seen within the group.

I know you cannot please everyone all the time, but I do take into consideration what our remembers say and what they seem to be interested in wanting to read.

[Daisy]

From many of the great ideas above I have a partiality to:

-Deborah wrote: "The variety and introduction to authors."

-Silver wrote: "opportunity to read the books they [readers] want to read while still introducing the group to classical works of a more obscure and lesser known variety."

-Wendel wrote: "the English, French and Russian classics. What about the Scandinavians? Ibsen and Strindberg, but also Bjørnsen, Lie and Pontoppidan.* Or the Germans: Heine, Hoffmann, Stifter and Storm for instance? Not to forget Prus, Couperus, Manzoni, Deledda, Pérez Galdós and Eca de Queirós."

-Pip wrote: "The evolving Gothic genre."

-Lynnm wrote: "American literature in this time period." and "And if we were to add poets." and "Essayists - Thoreau and Emerson."

-Frances wrote: "1-2 books/year from other countries &/or of lesser known authors." Actually, I wouldn't mind reading a little bit more from this category.

Thanks.