TtH - Chapter Twenty - No Spoliers

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Chapter Twenty discussion thread.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Nimander urges the other Tiste Andii to play along with Clip – they need to lull him into a false sense of security for when the opportunity arises for Nimander to take him down

And we learn that Monkrat was a bridgeburner – a deserter - a real deserter. He remembers Silanah from Blackdog and Mott Wood. He was happy to go along with Gardithan when he was being a mere thug – but it seems Gradithan has converted to the dying god’s religion and Monkrat knows its time to skidadle. And how cool was it that Spindle shows up in Black Coral.

And the Tiste Andii are at war – but with who?

The High Priestess hesitated, and then said, ‘We are now at war, as you have surmised. On countless fronts, only one of which – the one here – concerns us, at least for the moment. I do not think weapons need be drawn, however.’

I’m guessing the more immediate war relates to the siege of the dying god on the Redeemer’s barrow.

And it turns out that when Draconus commissioned Kadaspala it wasn’t supposed to be to create a god. Merely to make a ritual against chaos. But Kadaspala is crazy

The pattern, Kadaspala, was meant to defy Chaos – two antithetical forces, as we discussed—’

The Trygalle Trade Guild escape the village with the crazy Jaghut – The Jaghut’s wife is back and the argument between the two threatens to engulf the whole place. Cartographer displays a talent for creating portals and the Guild finds a way out of vampire city. I wonder if the curse on the three women will end when they leave

And Kallor, Karsa, Traveller and the Hounds approach the outskirts of Darujistan. Convergence is at hand.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

So what I found interesting in this chapter was how Nimander handled the other Andii. When they bailed him up and tried to put pressure on him, he turned them all around and they suddenly found themselves doing as he asked. I read that twice and the way it is written, you'd have to say that it is trying to show that Nimander is Rakes heir apparent. Certainly the way he used the silence and the commands, he has shown that he is a leader.

I love the undead cartographer, his part just gets better.

You know reading it the second time just makes this convergence all the bigger and better. Even though I know the ending, I think this time round, really understanding all the people who are actually going into town is pretty amazing.

The part with Draconus on the Wagon was interesting, as Ditch was watching him, he seemed to fade in and out of existence. I don't think he meant focus, I think he meant existence. So what relevance is that I wonder?

[Sumant]

Nimander urges the other Tiste Andii to play along with Clip

What i wondered here was that nimander saying that although kedviss was killed her soul would keep on roaming as mother dark had rejected them.What does this rejection actually mean?? because they are still able to use kurald galain, so how does the rejection affets them??.

I have forgotten who is spindle?

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Sumant wrote: "I have forgotten who is spindle? "

Spindle was a mage in the bridgeburners. He was the one who wore his dead mother's hair for a shirt. He retired to Darujistan with the other survivors but went on a pilgrimage afterwards.

Sumant wrote: "What i wondered here was that nimander saying that although kedviss was killed her soul would keep on roaming as mother dark had rejected them."

I'm guessing it means that dead Tiste Andii wouldn't go to their version of heaven or after life. Instead of returning to mother dark, they would be like ghosts?

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Lee wrote: "The part with Draconus on the Wagon was interesting, as Ditch was watching him, he seemed to fade in and out of existence. I don't think he meant focus, I think he meant existence. So what relevance is that I wonder? "

It's probably because the approaching chaos is threatening to send everyone to oblivion - or non-existence?

[Sumant]

He was the one who wore his dead mother's hair for a shirt.

Thanks david now i remember him.

[Lori]

I had completely lost track of Spinde and forgot he was even alive!

Yea, without Mother Dark there is nowhere for their souls to rest. Which makes me wonder about who enters Hood's realm.

I'm still confused about the Hounds and what their goal is.

FoD spoiler (view spoiler)[It's interesting to how crazy with grief Kadaspala is after all the millennia after FoD (hide spoiler)]

[Silvio]

I thought we already knew Monkrat was a Bridgeburner from getting his POV before. Can't find the passage, though.

Since everyone is in awe of Nimander like they are of Rake, I wonder now if Rake sometimes feels inadequate like Nimander. If so, he sure doesn't show it.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Silvio wrote: "I thought we already knew Monkrat was a Bridgeburner from getting his POV before. Can't find the passage, though."

I think we knew he was a Malazan - I can't remember if we should know he's a Bridgeburner already

[Lori]

I think Rake has been the chosen leader for so long that he has accepted his fate and that's his grace. Nimander is so much younger, with a small group, and has innate leadership that we've seen him come into his own. The heir of Rake. Rake probably had to grow into his own too.

[Duffy]

From Chapter 18, Monkrat's POV:

"And who knew, maybe there was no one left there to recognize him - and why would they in any case? His old name was on the toll of the fallen, after all, and beside it was Blackdog Wood, 1159 Burn's Sleep. The Bridgeburners were gone, dead, destroyed in Pale with the remnants mopped up here at Black Coral. But he'd been a casualty long before then..."

He was a Bridgeburner, and he was assumed dead, but actually deserted in 1159, after some battle called Blackdog Wood. (Do we know anything about that). From earlier in the same passage we know that he was born somewhere near Mock's Hold.

As for Nimander, he does show leadership, but it wasn't strong enough to prevent Kedviss from confronting Clip. The whole idea of leadership with the Tiste Andii is kind of self contradictory. They will only follow when they agree. Sort of like the relationship of lots of worshippers to their gods. And the flip side of this, sort of, is Seerdomin and Itkovian. He is a true worshipper, because he doesn't believe and asks for nothing? Very interesting stuff.

[Silvio]

Exactly what I was trying to remember, Duffy. I definitely agree that Tiste Andii only follow when they agree - so Anomander Rake, and apparently Nimander, is uncannily easy for them to agree with. Not too different from what I think of as good leaders in real life, actually. Lori, good point about Rake. It's so disorienting to imagine him young!

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Blackdog Wood. (Do we know anything about that)

No, it is a story that would be great to read. Basically what we do know, is that prior to arriving in Pale (Gardens of the Moon) the Bridgeburners were engaged in a right old battle in Black Dog Wood against Caladan Brood and the Crimson Guard, they also then fought at Mott Wood against the Mott Irregulars, which I think is part of the same battle. They were handed their asses in Mott Wood too.

In Bonehunters Tavore mentions both these battles when she fires up the troops. I also think that this was part of the whole scenario where the BB thought that Surly was trying to have them killed. First throwing them against Brood and the CG in Black Dog Swamp and then into Mott. Then to tunnel under Pale.

The four years prior to Pale is the story I want Erikson to write after Kharkanos.

The other interesting story is Mock. The pirate that built Malaz into its beginnings of its empire. His lover was Tattersail and he was murdered by Cotillion.

But I digress.

[Rob, Quick Ben]

Man I hope Clip dies soon. Nimander and crew can all die in the process for all I care. That story line just isn't doing anything for me....

And to think I initially liked Clip too..

Good point about leadership and the Tiste Andii though Duffy.

Spindle showing up was odd. I didn't realize he was still around. Then again I never cared much about him.