TtH - Chapter Nineteen - No Spoliers

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Chapter Nineteen discussion thread.

[Sumant]

Murillo's body arrives at phoenix inn

I definitely think something is fishy about this ox and it's master, because we have got its pov many a times or is it just SE has love for animals, because in last chapter too we met a character who believed that animals served ungrateful masters.

Challice tells crokus about Goras knowing their truth

I think challice is trapped in a circle she wants to break out and then she thinks it is just wishful thinking, but looks like poor crokus always ends up wrong women.

Venaz comes for harllo

Venaz comes to get Harllo so that he can deliver him to goras we get a nice insight into his nature how he thought if he played this well he would be able to get into service of goras and do his dirty work, but his bubble bursts soon enough when one of the miner insults and slaps him.

Bainisk escapes with Harllo but does not make it in the end.Here i did not get why did not Harllo got to Dev' anad tool?.

Antsy gets loaded to go out with scillara and blend to barracks whre barathol is

Antsy starts freaking out and gets loaded so much then says to heck with it and gets only his short sword.also fisher informs him that the contract on them has been revoked, it was fisher only who threatned safa karfar.also duiker mentionsbard is immortal.Finally they head out and go and visit barathol, antsy gets himself landed in prison.Barathol mentions that his sentence will be six months at foundry called Eldra foundry which is owned i think by Humble measure.finally blend pays the fine and frees barathol.

Baruchemist visits our favorite priest of shadow
Pust tells baruk to watch urs gate.I wonder why?

Chaur is in company of spite and she is going to visit lady envy

This is going to get messy.

Everybody mourn murrillo

Crokus goes on his mission to to get revenge for murillo, where in he is visited by apsalar who tells her to stop but he continues on.

Bellam takes two girls to stonny
It was nice finely bellam giving stonny some piece of his mind so that finally she can stop pitying herself.

shardan lim visits challice and makes use of her

challice thanking him at the end was a definite shocker, looks like she is too far gone for return, I only hope crokus/cutter does not get himself killed for her.

Picker wanders through snow

Picker wanders through snow is it omotose phellack or beast's hold and we have two wolves of winter chasing her.She is saved from a leopard is it kilava? by some people with spears are they the same people who gruntle dreamed about.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

Great Summary Sumant. That saves me some writing. I'll just add a couple more points.

Challice asks Cutter to take out Gorlas. This taints the relationship for Cutter who seemed to be falling for Challice. Was her tryst with him just to employ him as an assassin?

‘My love,’ she whispered. ‘It has to be done. You see that, don’t you?’
But it was always this, just this. Leading up to this moment. Where she was taking me – or have I got it all wrong?

I get the sense that Challice is damaged goods - filled with self loathing. When Shardam Lim comes to get some from her she just lets him. It's like she is trying to get back at Gorlas by killing herself inside - cutting off her nose to spite her face so to speak.

And Barathol looks like he can earn his qualifications in the six months he's forced to do hard labour - Yay for Barathol! I think?

Baruk visits the Temple of Shadow where Iskarel Pust passes on a message from Shadowthrone(in a roundabout way) that he is to keep watch at a particular gate.

I like how a bhokaral opens the door for Baruk and he examines the little beastie to make sure he isn't a soletaken demon - if we remember back, the late Mammot's bhokaral from Gotm turned out to be a soletaken demon who ended up as the guardian of Tremorlor in DG.

And it looks like Irlita was secretly in love with Murillio - she slits her wrists - the tragedy keeps spiralling outwards

There were loves in the world that never found voice. There were secrets never unveiled, and what would have been the point of that? She was no languid beauty. She was no genius wit. Courage failed her again and again, but not this time, as she drew sharp blades lengthways up her wrists, at precise angles, and watched as life flowed away. In Irilta’s mind, this last gesture was but a formality.

And when Cutter finds out what happened to Murillio he sees it as Gorlas getting at him for sleeping with his wife - even though that's what he wants. I think things are going to get bloody.

And Myrla ends up in the leper colony. At least that's how I'm interpreting this passage

Passing through Two-Ox Gate, Bellam Nom sets out on the road. From a hovel among the lepers he hears someone softly sobbing.

It's thin but Erikson never wastes words so I think this is supposed to tell us where Myrla has ended up.


Sumant wrote: "Here i did not get why did not Harllo got to Dev' anad tool?.

I think the escape route took then to a different place - but also when Dev got his new legs he got up and walked off with plans to become the new tyrant- so he probably wouldn't have been there anyway - maybe

[Silvio]

Sad on sad. With Bainisk's death I got as close to crying as I ever do reading a book. I wonder why Erikson put a book division before this chapter when it's so much of a unit with the last one in terms of mood and plot.

I remember now how the carter singlehandedly invented cell biology and is making a good start on genetics, according to chapter 13. 'Every body in existence, sir, is made up of the same stuff. So small you can't see except with a special lens but I made me one a those. etc. So maybe there's more to him than meets the eye. Or maybe Kruppe just envies the ox its blissful stupidity?

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

I also think that Harllo probably wouldn't think about using Dev yo help as his plan was to escape and Dev is currently trapped in a hole way under ground and is just dried skin and bones. Harllo has no idea about what a T'lan Imass is capable of.
Certainly think that they will meet again and those earlier meetings are setting up for later, especially now that Harllo has escaped.

Erikson can write one hell of a miserable religion can't he? The Pannon Seer (sp?) ran a horrible cult and now the dying gods lot with their keylk is awful.

Great pick up David on Nom hearing the sobbing in the leper village, I think you are right, there aren't any wasted words so, yeah I agree.

The ox's pov is interesting, it is like an island in a stream and humans are rushing by; living, hurting, dying whilst the ox stumbles along. A very simple way at looking at life, I think Chaur is the same, he is the human ox in this book, SE is probably sending us a message :)

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

I must have a older version, because my chapters are one ahead and the book 4 division is different to the physical copy I own.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

The ox and cart in this book represents a few things I think - though I'm not too sure what exactly Erikson is driving at. The ox and cart's primary purpose, of late anyway, is carrying away the dead. Perhaps he represents Hood's collecting of souls. I'm also reminded of the cart in Dragnipur with the broken bodies piled up on it. Perhaps the ox represents the indifference of the downtrodden - regardless of what events occur, great or small, it means little to the ox other than his burden increases. The ox is merely an indifferent observer of happenings in the city?

[Lori]

Yes to that last, but also represents the downtrodden in that as all these events going on life remains the same from day to day. Plus animals live in the moment while all the people scurry about with their seemingly important goings on.

I definitely think Challice set Crokus up to kill Gorkas. And that her thank you was a way to get her power back.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

Her thank you was definitely a way at taking the power that Lim felt he had over her by raping her. I am sure he felt somewhat confused when she thanked him. We'll probably see Lim know wondering about her sanity.

[Sabrina]

I definiiely think that Challice's intent has always been to have Cutter kill Gorkas. She is, afterall, a daughter of politics in a city that ran an assasins guild.

I like that Erickson's writing is so philosophical with questions on the different religions. He does have imagination when dreaming up the various rituals.

It makes me wonder if him being an archeologist and having an idea of how many different religions may have existed at any given time, did not play a role in his creation of them.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

That is certainly possible once she learned that he had changed considerably from the young thief he once was. I am sure if that was her intention when she first met him again. Then I think she was thinking that if her husband was going to pimp her out, she'd have her own fun.

[Sabrina]

Could be, Lee. But, I think she came to the conclusion that she was nothing more than a tool to her husband, something to dangke before his buddies, before she ran into Cutter again. She may have thought to take him as her choice of lover but, seeing as how his name change might fit him, I think she knew she'd manipulate him into killing Gorlas.

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

I think we are agreeing with each other :) it is just the time thing of when she learned he wasn't a simple thief and a potential assassin.

One thing is for sure; he wouldn't have gone after him if Gorkas hadn't killed Murillio or called him out directly later.

[Lori]

Yea, that's where she was mistaken. She never had him in her power like she thought. He killed because of Murillo, not her. She's become somewhat pathetic. Seems like the women in Stan aristocracy are second class citizens, she started out so bright.

[Duffy]

Erikson never wastes words, but this narrator is Kruppe! And Kruppe never wastes a pastry, but he's quite profligate with his words. He even laments his own loquaciousness in an earlier passage. Even so, I think you all are right about the sobbing from the leper colony.

Another reason Harllo doesn't go to the Imass is because he's following Bainsk. This is not his plan at all, and Bainsk believes that he's found a way out.

As for the ox, I think the symbolism you guys are drawing out is correct. But on a literal level, I still tend to think that the ox is probably one of Kruppe's agents. Earlier in the chapter, Kruppe talks about the vision of lots of animals, including rats, and then brings himself into these visions by mentioning a "flying eel". More and more, I think that Kruppe has such empathy that he is capable of seeing through the eyes of others, including beasts, including Chaur, and that he's being more literal than we have given him credit for.

Someone should write an essay on the reactions to rape and less than consensual sex throughout the series. It's really quite extraordinary how many different takes Erikson has given to the same subject. Scillara, Seren, Felesin, Bottle, Challice, Stonny, and on and on.

Finally, I think the book break after the last chapter was in the right place. The last chapter finished putting all the pieces in place. The last book gives us the various cataclysms that will result.

First time around, this was my favorite book in the series. This time, I'm liking it even more.

[Silvio]

Duffy wrote: "Erikson never wastes words, but this narrator is Kruppe! And Kruppe never wastes a pastry, but he's quite profligate with his words. He even laments his own loquaciousness in an earlier passage. ..."

I would have expected someone to have already written at least part of an essay on that, but I'm not checking the databases until we finish the series.

Now you gave me the idea, it makes a lot of sense that Kruppe could be possessing people and other animals or something like that. It would make sense of the "flying eel" wording and also how he knows so much and yet not everything. I haven't seen anything to make me think the ox is an allegory (though probably Erikson does like allegory better than me). But it could be an example of a lot of things.

[Rob, Quick Ben]

Is it bad that I don't care if Cutter dies so long as Gorlas dies first? I don't care about Challice, but I want revenge for Murillio.

David Sven wrote: "And it looks like Irlita was secretly in love with Murillio - she slits her wrists - the tragedy keeps spiralling outwards"

Wow I must have read this too fast on the plane. I got that she was upset about his death/loved him, totally must have skipped over the lines about her cutting her wrists. /readfail

[Lee, High Priest of Shadow]

It is hard to really like/care about Cutter, playing the morose jilted, heartbroken youth that he is. I believe he should change his name to Angsty. Then him and Antsy can pair up and have fun.

[Dara]

Rob wrote: David Sven wrote: "And it looks like Irlita was secretly in love with Murillio - she slits her wrists - the tragedy keeps spiralling outwards"

Wow I must have read this too fast on the plane. I got that she was upset about his death/loved him, totally must have skipped over the lines about her cutting her wrists. /readfail "

I completely missed this as well. Wow.

I think I'm in the minority again because I'm really not enjoying this book all that much. I liked Reaper's Gale a whole lot more. I think it's because I was so confused through much of GotM and I don't remember everything that happened in that one so TtH is kind of boring and frustrating to me.

[David Sven, Mortal Sword..Meow]

I didn't enjoy this so much the first read while I was reading it. But after reading it there were just certain scenes that kept coming back to me. I enjoyed it more the second time round

[Dara]

I think I'll like it more on a re-read as well.

[DangerBin]

Lee wrote: "Her thank you was definitely a way at taking the power that Lim felt he had over her by raping her. I am sure he felt somewhat confused when she thanked him. We'll probably see Lim know wondering a..."

Didn't it say earlier that Gorkas is exclusively a back door man? Does Lim have some defining feature that a child would be easily traced back to him, giving Gorkas an excuse to kill him? Was that the plan all along? (either him or that other councillor guy) That could be why Gorkas is genuinely annoyed about Cutter getting his seed in there too and fouling up the mix.

Wow, writing that made me feel a little dirty. Erikson must take a lot of showers.

[Matthew]

A great chapter here. I haven't had tears while reading since the ending to the Chain of Dogs. We really got a sense of the brotherhood of the Phoenix Inn group here.