Christian Goodreaders discussion
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Christian response to bad language
I'm so glad you brought this up, Werner. I struggle with this daily as I read fiction and read reviews. I've definitely been guilty of not voting to like a review if the reviewer lapsed vulgar or profane, especially if the use of that language seemed "routine" and not relevant. Most of my colleagues at work already think I'm strange because I prefer not to hear profanity in a business meeting. I make no bones about it, that it's distasteful to me and inappropriate to the setting. I love to tell them that English has many other adjectives available for their creative use.
The Christian fiction that I've read to date has not contained profanity that I can recall. If it was there, it was innocuous to the point of forgetfulness on my part.
I tend to avoid fiction that overflows with obscenities and profanities. However, a recent read proved the exception to that rule. Joe Abercrombie's First Law series, while filled with profane dialogue, is a gripping and gritty story.
Back to reviews, I also struggle with voting for GoodReads friends reviews of genres or subjects I don't think appropriate for Christians. Perhaps that's going to far, but I try to set a good example.
Jon, I appreciate your thoughts; they give me something to think about and pray about. And kudos to you for standing up for proper speech at work; in that context, you have a perfect right to do that! Working for a Baptist college, I don't have to worry about bad language from my co-workers --and I think that those of us who are blessed with a Christian work environment sometimes take it for granted and don't appreciate it as much as we ought to.Christian fiction produced by the Christian presses that sell their books through the retail outlets of the Christian Booksellers Assn. (CBA) don't allow profanity at all in their products, because the CBA has strict guidelines against it. Some Christian writers in other venues aren't necessarily as strict; C. S. Lewis, for instance, didn't take a stance of absolute avoidance. But Christian writing in any venue isn't the kind that, as you well put it, "overflows with obscenities and profanities," because we have a different mindset --and because all responsible writers, including Christian ones, realize that sort of writing is a hindrance, rather than an aid, to serious communication/story-telling.
As a result of this discussion so far, it occurred to me that if I don't like or approve of the language in a review, but want to affirm the ideas it contains, the latter can be done just by adding a comment. That isn't as liable to misunderstanding as a blanket affirmation that I "like" the review; and it's more likely to invite further discussion that might be constructive. So, speaking just for myself, I've already started to implement this as a new personal policy!
Okay, here's my two cents worth. The bible doesn't prohibit profanity or "cussing" as we call it. It only says not to take the Lord's name in vain. Personally, living in the South, I find many terms used commonly much more vulgar than what most people consider profanity. Here, even "Well bless his heart" can be profane. The bible doesn't say much about gambling, or drinking either, but those in the bible belt swear it does...it doesn't. You have a right to control your speech, but not that of others. That in itself is profane, thinking you have the right or authority to tell anyone else how to speak. You don't. You can set an example, but you don't have any authority to tell anyone how or what to say. Contrary to your biased opinion, words themselves cannot be either bad or good, they're just words. They have no power of their own. Read what you will, have your opinions, but you cannot rule others with your opinions. That's wrong, it'll always be wrong, and that's all there is to it. If you don't like how things are where you work, go work somewhere else. That's your choice, where you work, slavery is still illegal, though it often doesn't seem like it these days. If you're not doing a job you love, then perhaps you're in the wrong job in the first place. Find and do a job that's consistent with your values, or else you're just another hypocrite.
Thank you for your opinion and your use of the word "you" so frequently within your post. Here's a good blog post about God's gift of language, a tool, which can be used for good or evil:
http://toughquestionsanswered.wordpre...
http://www.gotquestions.org/cussing-s...
And while the Bible might not prohibit drinking, for even Jesus drank wine and turned water into wine, God has much to say about drunkenness: http://www.bible-topics.com/Drunkenne...
http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-alcoh...
And on gambling, the Bible is a bit vague, but there are some relevant passages: http://www.gotquestions.org/gambling-...
That's all in how YOU interpret them. Fact is, no bible passage from today's bible is accurate and truthful.
Dave wrote: "I don't even consider myself Christian, at least not as most people would define it, at this time. That's a discussion we won't have here. "I will pray for YOU and that the Holy Spirit will comfort YOU and guide all of US in meditation and understanding of God's Word.
Dave, I see some gaping logical contradictions in your comments. You begin by appealing to the Bible, and conclude by asserting that nothing in "today's bible" is accurate or truthful. If that's the case, on what do you base your claims about what the original does or doesn't teach? (In fact, it isn't the case, though people who don't know much about the Bible often assume it is; modern textual criticism of ancient writings is a well-developed scientific process that's given us a Bible text that's accepted by all scholars, from atheists to fundamentalists, as substantially accurate.) Of course, interpreting the meaning and the modern application (which are two distinct things) of any part of the Bible is a somewhat subjective process. But before any of us try to do it, it's usually a good idea to do some serious study of what we're talking about.Second, nothing I wrote was about controlling other Goodreader's right to express themselves in any way they see fit (within Goodreads' own guidelines). I was thinking aloud, and inviting advice, about how I should respond, in a way that's loving and respectful, to language I don't personally endorse --I didn't advocate trying to censor it. And Jon said she had asked co-workers to refrain from offensive language in a business place, where she has to be there as a condition of her job, and where it may offend customers. That's a significantly different context from Goodreads --and she was asking only for voluntary courtesy, not threatening to flog them for disobedience. You, on the other hand, are so offended by how we think and speak that you wrote a post attacking us for our wickedness --something neither of us have done so far. That's your privilege --but it's also my privilege to feel that I'm not one whit ashamed of anything I wrote, and that I have no reason to be.
While I personally would say profane language is something all Christians should avoid, I guess it is something that each of us need to pray about individually.I wasn't always a Christian. Even after I became a Christian I continued to read all the same books, listen to the same music, and watch the same movies that I did before I got saved. I did, however, quit using foul language. Then after awhile, someone encouraged me to pray about my entertainment choices and encouraged me to take to heart what the Bible teaches about focusing on "whatever is pure and holy". So I did. At that point, the Lord placed a restriction upon what I use to entertain myself. As a result, I no longer read anything with sexual content or language in it, nor do I listen to anything with it in it. I've love to say that I've completely avoided the movies, and while I have for the most part, I am a work in progress.
Why? It all has to do with the feelings or thoughts such material conjures. I've found that bad language sticks in my head like peanut butter on the roof of your mouth. Sexual content brings unholy thoughts to mind. Not that sex is bad. But in those books it is typically not a sexual relationship within the bounds of marriage. Which specifically goes against Scripture. Nor do we need to read in detail, I feel, what happens between two people who are making love.
I feel that authors can still convey strong emotions without specifically using foul language or sexual content. Many of the Christian books I read simply write in the narrative that a character "said a short, foul word." And there are many authors who can convey sexual chemistry between two married characters without going into explicit detail.
On a final note, shortly after I was saved, someone said something to me regrading the use of profanity that was really insightful. Knowing that I wanted to be a writer, she said to me that it takes a person with a much broader vocabulary and intelligence to avoid the use of profanity. And in a sense, she was right. Anybody can swear. I've--sadly--heard 3-year-olds do it. This little piece of advice has challenged me to broaden my vocabulary and find other ways to express my thoughts and emotions, both verbally and on the written page.
Dave wrote: "Okay, here's my two cents worth. The bible doesn't prohibit profanity or "cussing" as we call it. It only says not to take the Lord's name in vain. Personally, living in the South, I find many term..."Unfortunately I agree with his view. I try my utmost not to swear myself but unfortunately [depending on the situation:] sometimes it cant be helped.
I dont think anyone should be judging anyone else to be perfectly honest, let them speak and act how they want to, they'll be judged eventually but judging others isnt good either, I would think as bad as swearing as what gives normal people the right to slate others that they do not know. Noone. Noone has the right to judge others. Leave that to God.
Yas, I think most of us, at times, wind up saying or doing things we normally try not to do, because none of us are perfect. Knowing that, I don't think most of us would be inclined to despise and dehumanize others for being similarly imperfect, or to presume to assign their eternal future for them. If those things are what you mean by judging --and there's no doubt that they're what Jesus meant by it-- I doubt if there's anyone in this group who'd disagree with you. That, of course, doesn't negate the need to discern what kinds of speech and behavior, in ourselves and others, do or don't contribute to the kind of interaction between people that God wants to encourage; or negate the value of sharing insights on how to interact with people who have different ways of speaking and acting, without making them feel despised and dehumanized.For Christian moral discernment, bringing up what the Bible does or doesn't say about a subject is not only in order --it's the best starting place there is. But the Bible is a fairly long book with a lot to say, and the way it says it is usually in terms of basic principles. So an approach based on narrow "proof-texting" from one verse, such as the command not to take God's name in vain, or on a focused search for specific explicit prohibitions of this or that word or action, usually isn't the most helpful one, if our purpose is sincerely to understand the message as a whole. (For instance, as a college professor of mine once pointed out, there is absolutely NO specific prohibition of arson --that is, deliberately setting fire to a building with harmful intent-- anywhere in any part of the Bible. Most of us, though, would probably agree that such an action would fly in the face of the general ethical teaching of both testaments, as expressed in the love commands, the Golden Rule, etc.) A number of other scriptures address the subject of human speech besides the single prohibition in the Ten Commandments, and they cover a lot more ground. A few that come to mind are James 3:9-12, which forbids cursing other people; Colossians 3:8-9, which condemns lying, slander, and "filthy language" (NIV); and the general injunction of Ephesians 4:29 to make our speech wholesome and helpful to others, rather than the reverse. There are a good many more.
Quoting the verses, to be sure, isn't the same thing as understanding and applying them, in contexts and languages that differ from the Biblical ones, or as knowing how to interact with others whose speech may not follow the Biblical principles. These are areas where we can advise and reason with, but not judge, each other. But our advising and reasoning will be useful only if it starts with trying to seriously hear and study, not cherry-pick, the Biblical text, and is motivated by a willingness to critique our own speech, not to vindicate it at any cost.
Werner, that was very well said. I appreciated your use of actual Scriptures in particular. It's a reminder for us all that we should not just "pick and choose" certain verses and phrases in the Bible for our own agendas, purposes, or goals, ignoring context or general Biblical tone in the process.
Thanks, Jenny! That's a reminder that I typically have to address to myself, since there have been times when I've been one of the worst offenders. :-)
Some good points by Werner and Jenny. I believe it was CS Lewis who said something to the effect that God is not looking for people who blindly follow sets of rules (or perform set actions), but people of a particular sort - ie those whose aim is to become more Christ-like. Hebrews says we should strive for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord. So we have to keep in mind in discussions about various issues - swearing, gambling, etc. - whether these things will bring us closer to the Lord and make us more Christ-like or not. It is similar to "what would Jesus do"? Can we imagine Jesus swearing or getting drunk? If not, is it something we should do? And as Christians, we don't have only ourselves to think of, we have to consider the impression we make on other people. Can we be salt and light to the world if we speak and act as the world does? The most common word for 'sin' in the NT is 'hamartia,' an archery term meaning 'to miss the mark'. That's what we need to consider in all that we do - are we hitting the bullseye, or missing the mark?
The issue is not one of controlling others, but controlling ourselves. James talks about control of the tongue, and that is just one aspect of our fallen natures that we have to rein in. Neither is it a matter of prudery. It is a matter of doing what is good, wholesome, edifying, beautiful. It is striving for the positive and beautiful instead of the negative and ugly.
If we want to become holy, we have to focus on holiness - what goes into us, as well as what comes out of us.
As far as reading books with profanity, I have a very limited tolerance for it. A book has to be truly exceptional in other ways for me to endure much profanity. And as for writing, I personally avoid profanity in my writing, even though I know some of my characters would use it if they were "real" people! I know that my Roman legionaries would use some pretty strong language, just like today's soldiers do. But I don't think that as Christians we should be increasing the amount of profanity that's out there. So I typically write something like "he swore" etc. (Of course, in historical fiction I can get away with making up ancient swear words - I doubt anybody today would be offended by my having a character swear "by Jupiter's bones!" or something!) I think Jenny is right on the mark to emphasize that profanity is the mark of an impoverished vocabulary (my wording). As Christians, we should be challenged to do better than use profanity.
In regarding judgment, there is a difference, as Werner points out, between judging an action and judging a person. In fact, we judge actions all the time. Lying is wrong. Murder is wrong. Adultery is wrong. All these (and many others) are judgments of actions. Where we cannot judge is a person's heart, mind, motives, etc, which are known only to God. We cannot judge whether a person is heaven-bound or the opposite. As sinful, imperfect humans, we cannot condemn another PERSON, but we can (and should) condemn sinful, destructive actions and behaviors. The Catholic Church, for example, while stating that hell is a real option for those who reject Christ, refuses to state whether or not any specific person (even Judas) is in hell. That's God's determination, not ours, because only God knows the state of a person's soul. Our task on Earth is to approximate, as well as we can, with God's grace, to Christ, and to show him to others by evidence of a Christ-like spirit within us. We need to do this both in person, and (for those of who are writers) in our writing.
And Yas, we are all imperfect, all fail, all sin, all come short. That's why it's great that we have a saviour who can forgive us our sins when we repent and confess them. We each need to beware that we don't take any sin for granted, or wilfully persist in what we know to be wrong (as the Apostle John warns). And that means we need to be always consulting the Holy Spirit as to what is sin in our lives.
And Dave, you are right that we can set an example, but do not have the authority to tell anyone how or what to say. But Christ does! He has authority over all aspects of our lives, and we should always be seeking to submit every aspect of our lives to him.
As for saying that words have no power of their own, I would disagree. Words DO have power and can be used for good or evil. Look how much evil Hitler accomplished by the power of words. And think how much good kind words spoken to a person in need can do. The words that we say - and write - can have great consequences, intended or not.
Thank you, Andrew! That was an excellent answer. Controlling the tongue is such a difficult thing for many Christians, me included.
Wow another great discussion point! Whew, where to start?
I love the Lord with all of my heart but to be honest, swearing or "cussing" is so prevelant in our world that it is difficult not to do so - especially when angry or upset. Of course when I forget WHO I am in Christ, and say something offensive to the Spirit within me, I'm quick to apologize, repent, and pray for the Him to control my tongue.
My husband was a cop and boy, do they have a language all their own! Not always good or edifying speech although he/most would give you the shirt off his/their back if need be. I mean have you EVER heard a cop say "my stars this guy is crooked?"
Not a chance - even the holiest cop would be swearing up a storm. Now I'm not saying there aren't any officers out there who make a point of NOT swearing, just that in all my years around them, I haven't met one (even a female). :-)
As for my writing, I try to portray my characters in a realistic light and on occasion (usually out of anger or sheer frustration) they will say something a "good Christian" shouldn't. That said, I don't pepper every conversation with swear words or indications of swearing. As with everything, including sensuality it must come natural ~ even if out of character for a "good" Christian.
Notice I put quotations around "good" - this is because as Christians we are also warned against judging and what one person thinks is "good" another may not. What one thinks is bad or evil may just be a saint in training. :-)
As Christians we are called to a higher standard and to crucify our flesh (sinful nature). As human beings most of us struggle in this/these areas despite our love and respect for the Lord.
I know I do.
As a writer should our characters be more or less perfect than we?
JMHO of course :-)
PamT
Pamela, good post! What does JMHO stand for? (People who interact with me in other groups will tell you I'm lousy at figuring out abbreviations --even if I have to kick myself when they're explained. :-))
JMHO stands for Just My Humble Opinion.
Danielle beat me in answering Werner and she is correct :-)PamT
Thanks, Danielle and Pamela! (Kicks self --once again. :-)) I'll have to remember that one.
You're welcome, Werner. I've picked up some vernacular in my time online. There are a few I was scratching my head at, such as IIRC and YMMW. LOL.
I've picked up some of of it, such as LOL, HEA and TSTL; and I use IMO and BTW myself. But while I know that IIRC means "if I recall correctly," I'm afraid that YMMW would still leave me scratching my head, too. I'm not sure if Twitter is really simplifying our written language or greatly complicating it! :-)
I think, the latter. :)
Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "I think, the latter. :)"Agreed, but since I'm a nerd at heart (and at work), I love acronyms. :)
And a quick search turns up 'your mileage may vary' for YMMW. Cute.
I'm sorry. It's YMMV. You got it right, Jon. I think that's like saying, it depends on the person?
Oh, dear. I can't type to save my life. :)
By "bad language" you mean like cussing and such right?
Yes, Aquanetta, "cussing and such" is a pretty good three-word definition. :-) I was thinking of curse words (where one invokes damnation on something, or somebody), profane use of divine names, obscenity, and vulgarism --all things that are distinct from each other, but which have in common that they're sorts of speech we shouldn't use, and don't encourage.
Michy, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Just to clarify, this thread originally began --back over a year ago; wow, that has been awhile!-- as a broader discussion of our response to bad language in literature in general (and also to bad language as it's used by more secular members of Goodreads in their reviews, etc.). But certainly the subject of bad language in fiction by Christians is a part of that!
Michy, on the subject of frequent use of profanity, etc., my reaction is much like yours. (Especially in the case of the f-word; it's not only very offensive and puerile but, in the way that it's generally used, totally devoid of any value from a communications standpoint. Granted, intelligent communication isn't a strong suit of most of the people who use it. :-)) Like you, I'd only finish a book with much of that type of language if it had some compensating factor; and I'd consider myself warned off from other books by the author. (And that type of language does affect my rating and review of a book!)
I find that profanity in the dialogue of any character in even the best of stories really distracts me from the whole plotline. Maybe it is the Holy Spirit within me that is offended but I usually want to stop reading and throw the book across the room. There are so many better things to read and I do not have the time to waste on books that make me feel this way.
Michy & Denise, thank you for your responses. I feel exactly the same way about Christian books. We are set apart, fiction or non--fiction, from the world's ways. I prefer to have safe reading material that our Lord could pick-up and read Himself. I so don't want to offend Holy Spirit or cause another to stumble in their walk. My 2 cents...
I once bought a book based on the back copy from a bookstore. I read the first paragraph and threw it in the trash where it belonged. My regret is that I helped support that author. We shouldn't give a cent to further such a career.
I'm glad this coversation is still going on, I haven't been able to post because I'm back at school. I have worked at a local Christian bookstore for over 6 years now. Often times the owners will refuse to carry a book published by a "Christian" publisher because the topic isn't specifically Christian or the book has profanity in it. They also won't carry Bible translations they believe twist God's Word. They will order and sell the book or Bible translation to a customer seeking it, they just won't carry it in their store. I have to agree with Debra, I don't want to offend the Holy Spirit or cause another brother or sister to stumble. If someone is searching for Christ, how does a book with profanity help further Christ's Kingdom? I also think about the fact that the Lord knows what we are reading and thinking. If we think (or others think) that a word is "bad" we should refrain from using it.
It is so refreshing to know that there are other Christians who do not enjoy reading books with language or sex in them. I am honestly shocked by how many Christians I know or have talked to who do *not* have a problem either reading/watching material with this in it or else using it in their writing. Without trying to pawn my personal convictions off on other believers, I truly believe this is one area in which we should all be in agreement. Scripture tells us that we are to focus on whatever is good, whatever is lovely, whatever is pure. I especially like the suggestions from above--would I watch, listen to, or read anything that I wouldn't want my Lord watching, listening to, or reading with me?
I maybe a bit late to this conversation, but here goes. :)
Writing YA, I consider my words very carefully in the language my characters speak and sexual scenes. Yes, I attempt to recreate human nature and different cultures, but I can't say I buy the total argument of keeping it realistic to allow in profanity and reveal too much in the way of sensual scenes.
Yes, the Bible doesn't shy away from portraying the worse in mankind, but we're speaking about God, and His motives are pure and righteous. How many of us as authors can say claim pure and righteous motives when we let a swear word slip or take a scene too far in a relationship? Or it is because our editor/publisher told us in order to sell more books?
I know people within the publishing business here in Nashville, and not all who work or head up Christian publishers are Christians. I have been told what to take out or add if I wanted to be published by certain houses, so I agree with Elizabeth's bookstore owner in critiquing what even comes from Christian writers and publishers.
Accepting diversity in Scripture isn't what makes us Christians - but UNITY of the Spirit in One Body.
Writing YA, I consider my words very carefully in the language my characters speak and sexual scenes. Yes, I attempt to recreate human nature and different cultures, but I can't say I buy the total argument of keeping it realistic to allow in profanity and reveal too much in the way of sensual scenes.
Yes, the Bible doesn't shy away from portraying the worse in mankind, but we're speaking about God, and His motives are pure and righteous. How many of us as authors can say claim pure and righteous motives when we let a swear word slip or take a scene too far in a relationship? Or it is because our editor/publisher told us in order to sell more books?
I know people within the publishing business here in Nashville, and not all who work or head up Christian publishers are Christians. I have been told what to take out or add if I wanted to be published by certain houses, so I agree with Elizabeth's bookstore owner in critiquing what even comes from Christian writers and publishers.
Accepting diversity in Scripture isn't what makes us Christians - but UNITY of the Spirit in One Body.
Shawn, your point about motives is a really good one! It's one thing to defend latitude in expression that reflects artistic integrity --it's quite another when we're talking about throwing artistic integrity out the window because we (or our publisher) think that going the low route is the key to making a bundle of cash. (It isn't, but plenty of people think it is --and even if it were, it's one more instance of the love of money being a root of every kind of evil.)Whether our calling in this world is preaching sermons, writing books, washing dishes, or whatever, it's God that we're ultimately serving, by serving other people made in His image; and we've got no right to sell out and give them (and Him) less than our best. I was blessed, even though I published my novel with a secular publisher, in never being pressured to sell out in that way; but I hope and believe that if I had been, I'd have successfully faced the test, with His help!
That is indeed a blessing, Werner. I could have been published years ago with historical fiction, but the secular publishers wanted more sex scenes and I refused. At the time, Christian houses weren't really interested in European history, just Janette Oake or biblical fiction. Fantasy is slow to catch on in Christian circles, other than Narina and perhaps LOTR.
Still,Scripture says WHATEVER you do, do as unto the Lord. Like the saying goes - "Those aren't 10 suggestions". God's word is authoritative. It is people who make excuses to reason away their actions when they come face to face with Truth.
Still,Scripture says WHATEVER you do, do as unto the Lord. Like the saying goes - "Those aren't 10 suggestions". God's word is authoritative. It is people who make excuses to reason away their actions when they come face to face with Truth.
C. S. Lewis' "Weight of Glory" concludes, "The load, or weight, or burden of my neighbor's glory should be laid on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can bear it.... All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one of these destinations [heaven or hell]. ... Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses."So we should ask ourselves, does my work, my conversation help or hinder my neighbor?
If I'm reading a really gripping story, and find that there are more violence, sex or cursing going on than I would like to see, I don't just give up on reading that story, but I might skip a few pages. I know I might miss out on important details for that same story, but somehow I feel that if skipping ahead is what feels best for me, that's what I have to do.Having said that, I much prefer stories that I can follow through comfortably without having to do do any skipping, but as good stories (Christian or non-Christian alike!) are not so easily come by, I will read skip-novels too. I feel even more cheated when I read a Christian story that has the right kind of language but the wrong kind of content, and every character is holier than thou but without plot and "believability", if there is such a word.
When it comes to cursing, I think that the need to use strong language must be the same for all people, but we go about satisfying that need in very different ways. While I may be very explicit about how I feel about something bad happening, and speak about it for some length, my colleague working by my side is doing the same thing when he or she swears and curses to let off steam. To a non-Christian ear, my long-winded way of not cursing may be just as offensive and hard to hear as profuse cursing and swearing would be to me.
I don't want to do anything I'm not comfortable with, but I do understand the need to use stronger language, to say something that carries more weight and makes more of an impact than just ordinary words. And if someone is not used to being truthful to themselves, how can ordinary words carry sufficient weight when they need to, in his or her own mind? I think it's more about that than about the fun of cursing because everyone else is doing it.
Teresa wrote: "If I'm reading a really gripping story, and find that there are more violence, sex or cursing going on than I would like to see, I don't just give up on reading that story, but I might skip a few p..."I appreciate what you are saying, but cursing carries no weight or meaning at all. It's a way to speak when you don't have enough command of the language to say it in another way. The only value cursing might have is to tell you the protagonist is a tough person. It's interesting though, I'm doing a book on prisoner salvation and not one of the writers has used cursing to tell their stories. Though they are saved, you would suppose cursing would be such second nature that it would come out unknowingly for a while. If that group of people doesn't curse in their writing, who could possibly need to?
After years in the military, I had a vocabulary which embarrassed my wife and family. I finally decided it demeaned her as well as me. The last time I remember using an offensive word was fourteen years ago. (Yes, I remember the exact incident.)It's not just vocabulary; its about your attitude toward yourself and your listeners. It's also about venting strong emotion by losing control . . or not.
I think both Pat & Ron hit on the key factor in this debate - CONTROL. Pat used the word 'command' but it carries the same meaning both in personal and creative use - control/command of what is spoken and written.
We, as Christians, need to ask ourselves - who is in 'control/command'? Are we allowing Christ and His principles to control us or our flesh? Are we bowing to society's convention and acceptance or God's Word?
We, as Christians, need to ask ourselves - who is in 'control/command'? Are we allowing Christ and His principles to control us or our flesh? Are we bowing to society's convention and acceptance or God's Word?
Shawn wrote: "I think both Pat & Ron hit on the key factor in this debate - CONTROL. Pat used the word 'command' but it carries the same meaning both in personal and creative use - control/command of what is spo..." Amen
Pat W wrote:"I appreciate what you are saying, but cursing carries no weight or meaning at all. It's a way to speak when you don't have enough command of the language to say it in another way."I'm sorry Pat, but I don't agree. Not all cursing is a sign of poor vocabulary, that would be over-simplifying it a bit too much to my liking. While I firmly believe that good grasp of the language helps, I don't think that a poor linguistic ability equals more cursing and swearing, neither in real life or in fiction. As for swearing carrying no weight or meaning at all, I cannot agree there either as I can understand what someone using that sort of language wants to express. Surely we have all some time or other stubbed a toe, had something not work when it's crucial that it should work or done something stupid ourselves? That's what's behind the swearing I hear most often from others. Lack of control? Certainly! Meaningless? No, just expressed in a less desirable way.
I don't suppose I think people serving prison sentences are all the same, and I don't think that they as a group would be more likely to curse than any other group in society, but it's great that you found stories told without that kind of language in them!
Teresa wrote: "Pat W wrote:"I appreciate what you are saying, but cursing carries no weight or meaning at all. It's a way to speak when you don't have enough command of the language to say it in another way."I'm..." The people who have submitted to Escape from the Prison System include those raised in gangs who never knew anything else, a member of the Mexican mafia, and others with very rough beginnings. I did not go out to gather only stories with clean language--though I admit I probably would edit that kind of language out. These are the toughest members of society when they start and grow into the Lord's most loving members, concerned for the well-being of the same people they might have killed in the old days. I guarantee they probably know words you have never heard.
With respect for any differing opinion, and not said to stir the pot, I really do get tired of hearing the Christian authors I've discussed this with say that using "real" language is crucial to expressing the "real" emotions of life in writing. This is rather insulting to me because it's like saying I do not experience real emotions simply because I absolutely do not curse. I used to have quite a potty mouth. But I have not used foul language in almost 20 years now. Interestingly enough, I have gone through much harder situations in the last 20 years of my life than during the 4 years in which I regularly swore. It is actually possible to express yourself without using foul language. For a Christian writer--or publisher--to say that it is essential is dangerous and hinders our Christian witness.There are many things that are not specifically addressed in Scripture. And while there is no direct commandment against using foul language (with the exception of taking the Lord's name in vain), there are the verses others referenced above about focusing on what is pure and holy. There is nothing holy about cuss words. Some have said that it's "just words". But we all know that's not really true. Yes, we each have personal freedoms and not everyone's are going to be the same. But we are also told to put others' personal freedoms above our own. Paul didn't believe there was anything wrong with eating the meat used for pagan sacrifices. But because it was a stumbling block for other believers, he personally refrained from eating it. How might our witness for Christ be effected if we are not willing to sacrifice our own personal freedoms so that we can reach out to the very people we are trying to reach with the Gospel?
Others may not agree with that. And I understand that God may not have placed the same restrictions on others that He has on me. But I hope we do not ever try to justify our use of foul language by saying that it is necessary to reality. We just have to ask ourselves: would we use those words in a conversation with Jesus? Or would we be horrified or ashamed to have Him hear those words---from us or from others around us?
Obviously, as Christians, we have a different attitude towards language than many (not all) non- Christians do, because we take seriously the Bible's prohibition of profanity and cursing, and the biblical ethic of respectful and constructive use of language; we also have (or should have) a wholesome respect for sex that precludes obscenity. Living as we do in a world where many of our cultural "elite" intentionally use the aggressive mainstreaming of profanity, vulgarism and obscenity as an expression of rebellion against ethical restraint, a cultural solvent designed to break down civility and standards, and a tool for the demeaning of women, we can't help but be highly conscious of and resentful of that agenda. At the same time, we recognize that we're living among people many of whom haven't ever been taught why bad language is bad (or even that it is bad), and who have been trained to use it as a part of their speaking style. Secular writers may reflect this as part of their writing style even without an agenda like the above; and for any writer, there are arguable considerations of realism that can, in some settings, be urged for reflecting this in fictional dialogue.
Speaking just for myself, I haven't felt led to adopt a policy of avoiding literature that has any bad language in it; and though I certainly don't think that Christian writers have to use it, I would not automatically condemn one who does as apostate. I usually regard it as a negative factor in my overall estimation of a book, but I'm prepared to make judgments based on how and why it's used. how much it's used, whether or not it's gratuitous, etc. That's just my opinion, and I'll be interested in reading the opinions of others. But that wasn't my main motive for starting this thread!
What actually gave me the idea for this post was a related question: how we react, as Christians, to bad language on Goodreads. Here, we're part of a community of readers that includes people with very different writing styles, formed by very different attitudes. We benefit by being exposed to their ideas and thoughts (and, hopefully, this is a forum where they can benefit from being exposed to ours). Some of them, in writing reviews, may express themselves with various amounts of vulgarity and obscenity, not as part of an agenda, but because they honestly don't know any better. But they may also write intelligent and insightful reviews that clearly took some thought and time to compose, and which arguably deserve a pat on the back for that despite the bad language. So how do we deal with these? Should we refuse to read reviews with this kind of language? Should we refrain from voting that we "like" a review that happens to have such language? And should we challenge their language in a comment or a message?
So far, handling this for myself on an ad hoc basis, I've read any reviews I stumbled on that looked interesting, and avoided only those that I could tell didn't have anything constructive to say. If I've felt that a reviewer did say something constructive and worthwhile, I've voted for the review --not always in the sense of endorsing how he/she said it. And I've chosen not to confront people over their language, on the grounds that we can relate to people more constructively by tolerating them as they are, while showing them a better example. But I'd honestly like to hear what other Christians here think about this issue; and I figured that this group was a good place to do that!