What are we saved from?

[Brent]

Hahaha, Robert you are hilarious! Indeed, watch and pray, we might be ejected out of here soon (;

[Jake]

Hi, I am new to this group, and I can't hope to have much time to defend my position. I thought I might share my thoughts on this subject though.
To go back to the very beginning I would answer that we are saved from sin.

Whatever is not of faith is sin; and so when we sin, we do not rightly see God. Since our relation to God is eternal, this blindness is eternal (if it persists through our entire life as in the unforgivable sin). This eternal ignorance of He in whom we live and move and have our being is the death spoken of in Genesis, and is the immediate result of sin - it is the nature of sin, not necessarily a future consequence thereof.

God is omnipresent, as present in the flames of hell as he is on his throne or in the sanctum sanctorum. If hell is, as Christians say, separation from God, then it isn't a place, as all places have their being in God, and are equally close to him. The separation is in our blindness, not in our location. This is why Jesus was able to say to the scribe who understood the great commandments and how they related to God that he was 'not far from the kingdom of God,' even though he was, as far as his position is concerned, no closer than Judas Iscariot. Satan stood before the throne of the Almighty in the book of Job, but there are children on this earth who are closer to the Father than he.

Jesus came to save us from sin - by bringing us to a right knowledge of God (from sin to faith).

'To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.'

If he succeeded in this, then he is, insofar as he reflects God's truth through his life and teachings, the 'express image of his person' - even as we, whose lives reveal ignorance of God through our selfish acts, distort the imago dei.

If you rightly understand God through Jesus' teachings, then you do not need to wait for a future life - the life eternal belongs to you the moment you believe. Jesus said, 'And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.'

Faith is the substance of things hoped for - in other words, receiving the truth of God revealed in Jesus Christ is the reality of the life eternal.

We are saved from sin, and in being saved from sin we are brought out of our blindness (eternal death) into faith (eternal life).

[Robert]

So? What's the practical application of all that Biblical blather?

[Lee]

I would say the practical application is to stop sinning and enjoy eternal life.

[Brent]

Show me a human who can stop sinning in this life, Lee. Impossible.

[Jake]

You might say the same to Jesus when he said, 'Be ye perfect.'

If it is possible to have faith, then it is possible to not sin. I dare not say it is possible to live the rest of one's natural life without sinning. But you can believe the gospel, and when you believe it you are saved, and you have eternal life in God.

[Lee]

I suppose it depends on how you define sin. John's Gospel, for example, defines sin as not "seeing" (believing on) Jesus as the Messiah, and has no condemnation for other types of sin (I'm excluding the woman taken in adultery, which is not original to the gospel). So by that definition, either you have aionios life without sin, or you have sin without aionios life.

[Robert]

Let us say we have an abortion doctor, never in danger of being jailed, held in high esteem in the circles he runs around in, and amassing great wealth through his "practice". Somehow he gets the Call and decides to become a Fundamentalist Preacher who hides his wealth from his practioners and tells them that science is bogus although from his training he knows that to be outrageous prevarication. So off a thorough scoundrel goes to paradise at death, suffering neither on earth nor in the afterlife. This is Christianity's idea of justice?
Maybe we all ought to look into being Orthodox Jews.

[Lee]

Robert, are you sure this is the right thread for that question? I don't see the connection.

[Robert]

Well, not the Orthodox Jew part, but it addresses Jakes long-winded msg. 52 if I'm seeing the point. Maybe there is no point!

[Lee]

ok, we'll see if he replies that any of his post had anything to do with "going to paradise at death." I didn't read it that way at all.

[Robert]

Paradise in this post is synonymous with heaven, Lee, and you know it, quit nitpicking. And, speaking of the wrong thread, how does a Nonbeliever like you Lee even feel qualified to opine on this topic?

[Robert]

Now this is Off Topic. There was a wonderful line from an oldie song that went: "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right." which seems incredibly relevant right now. Does anybody remember the title and who performed it?

[Jake]

I apologize for the length of my initial post. I didn't realize how long it had become by the time I posted it (I am typing in very small text boxes).

I was not speaking of people living such and such a life and then 'going to' heaven or hell in 'the next life'. I was speaking of their relationship with God, who is eternal. The eternal life of the believer is not a matter of living from 1976-Infinity. It is a matter of knowing and loving God 'now'. While 'now' may pass out of OUR view, and we will eventually die, 'now' does not pass out of God's sight. That is why he is the God of the living, even though Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had not yet been resurrected when Jesus taught.

I apologize if I am having trouble making this sound sensible.

As far as your abortion doctor goes, however, he did not have faith when he was profiting off of abortion, and he did not have faith when he was defrauding and decieving his congregation. He lived a life of self-will; and 'nothing burneth in hell but self will.' Every moment in the life of this doctor turned preacher was a moment of blindness. For you cannot know or love God without loving your neighbor, who is God's work. How can one say that they know God, and then fail to recognize him in their fellow man who is made in God's image? If the doctor did what you say he did, and without interruption, then he has already paid in that he is cut off from the God he professes.

I apologize if this answer is also long-winded.

[Lee]

There you go, Robert. Jake said nothing at all about heaven, he was talking about salvation, so your comment about paradise misses the mark. If you want to start a thread about who gets to go to heaven, then you can repost your post there and it'll be on topic! ;)

[Robert]

Yes, I have an apology to make to Jake. I did not realize your viewpoint was some sort of Kingdom on Earth nonsense like Lee champions. I do have a question about the "Be Ye Perfect" Jesus quote. I must have missed that somehow in Scripture. Could you please indulge an old man and locate it in the Bible for me, chapter and verse?

[Robert]

Oh Jake, and how do you know the doctor didn't have faith? All that's required is to accept Jesus as God's son and believe he died and arose for your sins.
Real simple - anyone can become a Christian, even Democrats (or am I going too far?)

[Lee]

Jake may have a different answer, but assuming he means Matt 5:48, I'd say it's a "thy kingdom come" thing. Jesus is giving the new law for the new age on earth. Of course, you imagine the kingdom of heaven is up in the sky, rather than coming to earth as Jesus prayed, so I don't think the Sermon on the Mount relates to you, Robert.

[Robert]

Well, Lee, it is not by any means my great hope to get Raptured to Detroit.

[Lee]

lol. Sux that we're discussing what the Bible says rather than your rapture dreams, huh?

sometime we can talk about what Paul meant by his "rapture" scenario. It doesn't mean flying up to live in heaven...it means welcoming Jesus to earth.

[Jake]

"If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar."

Killing babies for money and knowingly deceiving his congregation does not sound much like love to me.

"He that loveth not knoweth not God."

[Jake]

I'm sorry, I have to apologize. I was quoting from memory, so I accidentally left out the 'therefore'.

Jesus said, 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect' - Matthew 5:48

I unwittingly took '...away from the words of the book...'

And I do not believe in 'some sort of Kingdom on Earth nonsense.' I do, however, believe that 'The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.'

I am having quite a hard time expressing myself adequately given my current time restraints, however. I apologize for inserting myself into this discussion.

If you've read the Theologia Germanica, you could get some rough idea of where I am coming from, as I agree with a great deal of what the author of that work had to say.

Again, I apologize. I did not mean to add any confusion to this discussion.

[Robert]

Jake, you are doing just fine, and don't apologize for beliefs that are in line with the bulk of the Bible. Heaven is referred to often in Scripture, the Rapture minimumly. I would be the first to admit that a Rapture only makes sense in the context of Premillenial Dispensation. Lee just scatterguns around cherry-picking verses that support his cultural viewpoints without any consideration as to whether they might be in tune with God's will. What you are referring to with your Jesus quotes are admonitions: they are vital to becoming a world-class Christian, but do not override the very simple message for becoming a Believer I mentioned in Msg. 67. Lee and I are old adversaries who really never solve much or see eye-to-eye. You're not interrupting anything but warmed-over hash. Also, I doubt there's anything you could possible add that could add to Lee's confusion, he refers to himself as a Jesus Agnostic????????

[Lee]

:) I'm an agnostic liberal Christian. The exact opposite of a southern conservative traditional believer (Robert).

I believe Robert cherry-picks verses to form an unbiblical view, and he believes I do the same.

In case you're curious, he's always wrong and I'm always right. Oh, the awesome responsibility of knowing the Truth in an apostate world! Religion is so much fun!

Welcome, Jake!

[Robert]

Well, at least we're maintaining our humor, if not our objectivity!

[Robert]

Actually, Jake I am a western conservative traditional believer as opposed to a southern Fundamentalist believer in a literal, down to the last jot, interpreter of the Bible. They are so literal I'm surprised any of them have any eyes or hands, Jake, because of the Scriptural verse "If your eyes offend thee..........well, you know. Until recently, Jake, I naively thought these Believers were dim but harmless. But they're way beyond dim, Jake, because if they were just dim they'd realize they're dangerous Jake and use it to their advantage. But they're so (maybe you can help me with a word here Jake) that they don't know they're dangerous and go around congratulating each other about how loving and harmless and Bible-abiding they all are. Very peculiar - sure wish I could come up with the right word because they'd probably take it as a compliment and rally cry and the South could rise again and get the tar kicked out of it again, and.........oh, never mind.

[Brent]

Another Civil War, Robert!? Don't get your hopes so high (;

[Jake]

I guess I am a northeastern non-liberal, non-conservative (it would be very inaccurate to call myself moderate) "Christian" idealist. I put the Christian in quotations because a reputable Christian ministry referred to me once as a quote unquote "Christian" - and who am I to argue with them?

As far as literal interpretations go, I interpret some verses literally and some not. For example, 'if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing,' I do not take like to take too literally, while, 'He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob,' I take quite as it is written. ;)

I more or less grew up as a fundamentalist; but I found that in order to truly defend my faith I would have to face the hard questions that are typically glossed over in Sunday school. That led me through quite a journey, chiefly involving the study of philosophy.

I definitely understand the agnostic and even the atheist position, and in debates I typically root for them (even though they are always supremely disappointing), but I have found that it is possible to understand God in a way that does not negate the intuitions of those positions, but retains more or less what we speak about when we say 'God.' That, of course, is a very big rabbit hole.

When it comes to what many modern Christians call 'God', however, I am sure there are some who might even call me an atheist. I have a friend, for instance, who insists that God has a physical, human body. I don't believe that.

But I am not an atheist. I believe in the God described in the prologue of John's gospel. But I take nothing on blind faith.

But look at me! Long winded again!

Anyway, thank you for the welcomes.

As far as a term for those dim folk who are utterly taken by dogmatic literal interpretations of the Bible, I can think of quite a few names. But the most accurate would probably be 'secretly terrified.' For many of them the trust they put in the scripture is the only thing separating them from an unbreakable uncertainty that they think would preclude them from saving faith. I know that is where I was for a long, long time.

[Brent]

Indeed they are supremely disappointing, Jake. Well put.

[Robert]

Brent - actually, we Texans are always clammoring about seceding from the Union. I think it's just sheer cussedness and independent thought rather than anything specific. West Viginia, on the other hand, has been treated so shabbily by the EPA that they should nationalize their own coal, secede, and not sell any to the U.S. All their foreign profits could then be distributed to their ultra-poor citizenry. It would actually be a very Godly move. Sorry Lee, if I can't keep on topic; first heaven, now West Virginia. Hey, wasn't WV "almost heaven"?

[Rod]

Wouldn't it be horrible if Heaven was this confusing? "State of Christianity in general".

Personally I don't see any confusion at all. But i do feel for those who flounder. :c)

[Rod]

Robert question: " "Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right." which seems incredibly relevant right now. Does anybody remember the title and who performed it?"

Just incase nobody answered it. I'm pretty sure it's Gerry Rafferty. Stuck in the Middle With YOU (song name.)

[Rod]

Robert going TOO FAR:
"Real simple - anyone can become a Christian, even Democrats (or am I going too far?)"

Nobody told me I'd be sharing Heaven with democrats!

[Robert]

Rod - I don't have any confusion either. Either I'm raptured up to "the clouds" or I die and migrate there. Either way, I've got a bird's eye view of those who desire to stay earthbound and face the 21 tribulations. I hope heaven has surround-sound so I can witness the agony like a really loud, gory Rambo movie!

[Lee]

Shooting all the republicans off into space sounds like one of the best ideas I've heard in a long while. We can add a 6th item to the list of things we're saved from:

6. republicans

[Rod]

Do people actually go around calling themselves REPUBLICANS? That would be comical.

I'm Canadian - we generally ignore our countries politics.

[Jake]

Many do. And there are some who almost seem to believe that being a republican is just as efficacious for their salvation as Jesus' finished work.

[Robert]

Lee - at least we understand rocket science.
Rod - it helps when you have anything resembling viable political parties.
Jake - I'll take all the help for my salvation I can get.

[Lee]

I'm listening. Do you have scriptural backing? Matthew 10:28?

[Lee]

I don't see the connection to John 3:17. Are you comparing condemnation by the Light to killing people?

[Lee]

Walk me through it.

John defines eternal life as "knowing God and Christ." I presume you're relating salvation to eternal life, and condemnation to the unsaved. So, John 3:18, those who don't believe don't know God and Christ, right?

I'd say salvation from unbelief is therefore similar to my #2, "Our present alienation from God."

[Lee]

I'm still hung up on your comparison to John 3:18. Sin is not defined as guilt by John; sin is merely not believing in Jesus as the Messiah. Not "seeing" him. We should throw John out of the equation and talk about salvation from just Paul's perspective.

Now, I understand your emphasis on being saved from sin, and then taking a step further to discuss the Gentiles "perishing" and the Jews being "judged" on their sin, but I think you mistake what Paul means when he hints that we are saved from sin:

who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age --Gal 1:4

What does this mean? It means Jesus somehow transitioned us from the age of Adam to the age of Christ. The Jews understood there to be two ages of note: the "present evil age" and the Messianic age. The latter (and Paul understood this well, as we know from his writings about birth pangs of the new age) would begin only after a period of intense suffering. But Jesus suffered in our place.

The result? We are saved from the old sinful age and everything is new, as promised:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. --2 Cor 5:7

[Lee]

Johnnie wrote: "But the apologetic remains: What do we do with our sin, and sinfulness?"

We stop sinning as best we are able, for we have been rescued from the age of sin. Why would we want to go back when we've been shown a better way?

[Rod]

Well said.

The Bible seems to go On & On about this wrath of God business due to our endless rebellion. And people think I make this stuff up!!!