Christian Theological/Philosophical Book Club discussion
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Does the Devil understand Jesus?
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I think the Hebrew version of the flood myth definitely belongs in the Bible.Rod, the people who wrote the Bible were not perfect, but imperfection can be endearing. We can relate to the psalmist who wishes the babies of his enemies would be dashed against rocks ... unless, of course, we think that plea was inspired by God. If every story in the Bible was roses, the Bible would be flat and emotionless, hardly a testament to the growing up of a nation.
Lee - don't single out gays - God abhors ALL sin. If he can hate me for REALLY wanting my neighbor's Corvette, then He certainly can hate gay's for their perversity.
You're probably ok coveting your neighbor's corvette, but if you covet his a**, you're going to hell.
Hahaha that's hilarious Lee, but completely incorrect.
I sure hope the sarcasm is detected. ;) My luck, somebody will quote me as serious.
And nobody get's angry at sinners quite like our God!"Their foot shall slide in due time..(Deut 32:35)"
;)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/edwards/serm...
(probably one of my favorite sermons ever).
Are you serious, Brent??? Hands down, the most ungodly sermon EVER.Rod loves it, I'm sure.
I'm not a fan of Edwards' sermon either. I was quite pleased, however, when I discovered that Jonathan Edwards was as Idealistic as George Berkeley. It is always useful to have a widely accepted theologian to hide behind.
You gotta love Edwards. :cDIt's comical how most people don't see the love and grace that is part of Edwards great sermons.
"The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked; his wrath toward you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire."
Lee - I've got no problem with that. If we returned to a more brimstone-inspired message, sinners might realize what awaits them and consider repentance. As it is now laid out, hell is where you go smoke dope with your buddies. but you're slightly inconvenienced because the air conditioner is broken.
Don't be a coward, Robert. Supernatural or not, any being that hateful should be stood up to.
That's where I draw the line, Lee - I'll stand up to any man and have a great time doing it, but my God is outta my league. Maybe you can't stand up to anything flesh and bone, Lee, but think you're really tough punching at the air.
Quote:"The God that holds you over the pit of hell..."
And yet HE still holds you...after so much provoking. That is an amazing God of love and Grace.
A good quote from Edwards. "there is hell's wide gaping mouth open; and you have nothing to stand upon, nor any thing to take hold of; there is nothing between you and hell but the air; it is only the power and mere pleasure of God that holds you up."
God is holding up sinners. How graceful and loving is that?
Here is a scary truthful quote that gets to the core of the matter:
Edwards: "the flames gather and flash about them, and would fain lay hold on them, and swallow them up; the fire pent up in their own hearts is struggling to break out: and they have no interest in any Mediator..."
Yes, Jesus is not even an option to those who oppose God.
My issues with Edwards' sermon are not with the sermon itself, but with its relation to his philosophical perspectives on free will/predestination. If he had a more self-consistent perspective on that issue in some of his other writings I could look past the harsh language. But now I am kicking myself for not writing down the passages...
Jake,Read Edwards' "Freedom of the Will" and you will find in his treatise theological and philosophical consistency in upholding metaphysical determinism.
Lee,We already know your presuppositions against postmortem judgment. You call it ungodly, but you have failed to give us a consistent definition of "God." In fact, I recall your definition of God borderline pantheistic.
Brent wrote: "Jake,Read Edwards' "Freedom of the Will" and you will find in his treatise theological and philosophical consistency in upholding metaphysical determinism."
That is the work to which I was referring, and I have read it twice just to make sure he was saying what I thought he was saying. I am not trying to argue that everyone else should share my position, since I would have to read it again to make an actual argument with quotations etc. I giving my own reasons, and I made quite a careful evaluation of his ideas.
Brent wrote: "Lee,We already know your presuppositions against postmortem judgment. You call it ungodly, but you have failed to give us a consistent definition of "God." In fact, I recall your definition of Go..."
You are correct: God may be evil, for all I know. So "ungodly" may be a confusing adjective for me to use. Hopefully everyone knows what I mean.
to an Atheist or non-Christian everything God does is evil.On the same hand:
To a barbarian or Tyrant everything a Good and Noble King does for his people is repulsive and oppressive. Criminals are never happy with Justice/protection.
Guillermo wrote: "Michael, I get people will use typology to understand certain texts of the bible, I'm just not convinced the original authors had that meaning in mind when they wrote them. Some might find a type o..."You are sir but most Christians are ignorant of the fact. Satan actually
Works for god and has access to heaven. Lucifer is a rebel and destined for domination. It's what the Catholics put in revelation that confuses most, the dragon old serpent the devil.
Do you think God murdering everyone in Noah's flood was a good liberal humanitarian activity?
Some good death and abuse in Exodus as well.
I don't think your liberal deity is in favor of the Old Testament God. Or maybe he/she should write their own Bible.