The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Son Excellence Eugène Rougon
Émile Zola Collection
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His Excellency (Eugene Rougon) - Chapters V, VI, VII
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Clorinde and Rougon are definitely two emotional heavyweights in the novel as it looks like everything is going to be about them and around them. Now, Rougon is in love but somehow his political ambitions take control over his body and his heart, and he decides to arrange marriage for Clorinde, and he chooses the person he trusts - Delestang. It might sound all very well on paper as a plan, but I am afraid Rougon is dealing with the fragile but spirited lady. She might not like the plan of being sold into the political marriage ... And the passage is wonderfully risque for that period. The chapter's language is very erotic :-) Class!
I will be posting my thoughts on other chapters later as soon as I read further. The novel does look intriguing at this point.
A woman as an object of consumption! Lovely, isn't it?
Mod
The novel leaves a mainstream feeling, but I think for is time, it was very risque and avant-guarde!
Robin wrote: "There's a section in Chapter V where Clorinde & Rougon talk about modern novelists. I imagine the whole conversation about how vulgar and pornographic they are comes from critiques leveled at Zola ..."I thought that too. We don't often know what C & E talk about, so the insertion of this particular topic seems rather obvious.
I've finally caught up and have finished up to the end of Ch 7: I am interested in Madame Rougon. Nobody is ever in a Zola novel without reason. She is just a shadow up to now, not doing much except making pots of tea, managing Rougon's finances, and disappearing from the salon from time to time. Is she just bored, or up to some sort of mischief? We shall see...
Lisa wrote: "Robin wrote: "There's a section in Chapter V where Clorinde & Rougon talk about modern novelists. I imagine the whole conversation about how vulgar and pornographic they are comes from critiques leveled at Zola ..."I thought that too. We don't often know what C & E talk about, so the insertion of this particular topic seems rather obvious."
I agree with you. Some of the scenes in this book might have been quite shocking. In the French version, there is a quote, which refers to an author which I thought embodied the essence of their conversation:
"Il prononça encore le mot "pornographie", et alla jusqu'à nommer le marquis de Sade . . . "
Although I haven't read any Sade (1740-1814), I think it's pretty racy stuff, isn't it?
In addition, I was wondering if there aren't allusions to this within this novel by Zola with regard the scene between E & C in the back shed, or horse barn, behind Rougon's house.
Daisy wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Robin wrote: "There's a section in Chapter V where Clorinde & Rougon talk about modern novelists. I imagine the whole conversation about how vulgar and pornographic they are comes from..."That's interesting, I just checked in my Kindle edition, de Sade is not mentioned, only a book called Leonora the Gipsy, which Clorinde says she has read in Italian when she was quite little. It might be a reference to the opera Il Trovatore by Verdi, I am a bit hazy about the plot. Wikipedia says that was a Spanish play, not an Italian novel though of course the libretto is in Italian.
This is my third Zola's novel, and every character in previous two novels had a purpose ...
Lisa wrote: "I just checked in my Kindle edition, de Sade is not mentioned."That's strange. Do you think this is a big omission?
"Léonora la bohéhmienne" is mentioned in my edition also, in the paragraph right after the paragraph where de Sade is mentioned.
Here is some information regarding the free online edition that I read:
"À propose de cette edition électronique
Texte libre de droits.
Corrections, edition, conversion informatique et publication par le group:
Ebooks libres et gratuits
http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/eboo...
Adress du site web du group:
http://www.ebooksgratuits.com/
September 2003 (mise à jour avril 2010)"
Oh, I bet you're right about the Verdi reference. :)
Daisy wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I just checked in my Kindle edition, de Sade is not mentioned."That's strange. Do you think this is a big omission?
"Léonora la bohéhmienne" is mentioned in my edition also, in the ..."
Well, de Sade is still considered pornographic by some, so maybe the omission/suppression was a case of an English translator censoring scandalous French suggestions for reading! More likely is that the translation might not have passed censorship restrictions in C19th (i.e. prudish Victorian) Britain if the name had been included, it certainly wouldn't have got past Australian censors, see my post about this at
http://anzlitlovers.com/2013/07/03/th...
Another thought re Zola's purpose: perhaps also he was responding to criticism that his novels were pornographic, by contrasting them with the notorious De Sade. ('Gadzooks, you think my novels are rude, try a little S&M by De Sade?!') He didn't write Nana (the one about the prostitute) till 1880, (i.e. four years after His Excellency) but perhaps there are racy passages in others that he wrote before it and he was criticised for it. (As I understand it most of the criticism about his novels was more about the 'vulgarity' of the realism, rather than anything scandalous, but I'm a newbie to Zola so I don't really know much more than you can find at Wikipedia).
Lisa wrote: "a case of an English translator censoring scandalous French suggestions for reading."Funny.
Thank your for the link. I know a little about book banning (very little), and next to nothing about book censorship. This discussion has sparked an interest to learn more. Nice review. The Censor's Library: Uncovering the Lost History of Australia's Banned Books looks like a good book.
Lisa wrote: "Daisy wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I just checked in my Kindle edition, de Sade is not mentioned."That's strange. Do you think this is a big omission?
"Léonora la bohéhmienne" is mentioned in my edition..."
Also, wouldn't "Léonora la bohéhmienne" translate more meaningfully as 'Leonora the bohemian', meaning one who leads an unconventional lifestyle, rather than ethnically Bohemian i.e. a gypsy? (I don't know the etymology of bohemian i.e. when it came to have this meaning of unconventionality, but it fits with the unconventional way that Clorinde behaves.)
Daisy wrote: "Lisa wrote: "a case of an English translator censoring scandalous French suggestions for reading."Funny.
Thank your for the link. I know a little about book banning (very little), and next to n..." It's a fascinating book, and so very relevant to our times!
Lisa wrote: "'Leonora the bohemian', meaning one who leads an unconventional lifestyle, rather than ethnically Bohemian i.e. a gypsy"This is how I understood it, and when I read the book I never made the connection of the character in the Opera (well, book) with Clorinde, ha! I'm glad you mentioned it.
Mod
He further pronounced the word "pornography" and went so far as to name the Marquis de Sade, who he had never read, by the way.
In Clorinde's answer right after that, she talks about the book Leonora. I think the sense is that she is a gipsy. It sounds like something a young woman would find exciting, a melodrama where the heroine is captured by bandits but marries a nobleman in the end. Probably the kind of thing Zola found a silly waste of time and ink.
And while Rougon and Clorinde are talking about these things, they are doing their own dance of seduction. Right after the sentence about Sade, it says "he maneuvered with great skill to pass behind Clorinde's chair, without her noticing." And her mentioning an unconventional woman who marries a great man, may not be just a random comment. Suddenly she notices him behind her, and he says he is just lowering the shade. And so on. . .
Thank you, Robin, again. I can not imagine what Zola would have written if he had been our contemporary. I do not mean it would have been uber-pornographic, but he might have been more vocal about sex, seductions, and other topics that were mentioned at his time, but never dwelled upon.
Mod
It's hard to be shocking today when mainstream entertainment includes sexy dancing by teenage (or pre-teen) stars and middle-aged moms devouring "Fifty Shades of Gray".
One of my all-time favorite books is "Possession" by A. S. Byatt. There is a 20th-century story and a Victorian story. The modern couple is more encumbered by all their knowledge of psychology and amount of freedom than the Victorian couple is by the constraints of society. The movie, while it can't compare with the book, was also quite good. I remember a scene where the 19th century man begins to unhook the dozen or more hooks of the woman's corset. So much more romantic than a couple of people divesting themselves of jeans. (not that I'd ever want to wear a corset!)
Robin wrote: "One of my all-time favorite books is "Possession" by A. S. Byatt. "It is one of my five-star reads. it is meticulously planned, brilliantly written with rich, allusive prose, sensual and mysterious. And the word 'Possession' is so meaningful on many, many levels. Last week I finally finished The Children's Book after two failed attempt, and it is worth the effort it took. it is not as brilliant as Possession, but I think in some moments it is more powerful in its messages.
Love A.S. Byatt! I have plans to start reading her Frederika Quartet in 2014.
What do you all think about the final episode in chapter VII? The hounds were fighting over offals, trying to get the bigger piece ...
Zulfiya wrote: "What do you all think about the final episode in chapter VII? The hounds were fighting over offals, trying to get the bigger piece ..." Symbolic of Rougon's cronies fighting over whatever scraps of power there are, and perhaps foreshadowing that only one can win...
Lisa wrote: "Daisy wrote: "Lisa wrote: "a case of an English translator censoring scandalous French suggestions for reading."Funny.
Thank your for the link. I know a little about book banning (very little),..."
BTW I have found out something interesting about translations and censorship of a different kind: I was setting up a Translations page at La Comedie Humaine (http://balzacbooks.wordpress.com/tran...) and discovered when I consulted Ellen Marriage's page at Wikipedia that when she translated some of the 'bolder' titles, she used the male pseudonym 'James Waring' because it was thought unsuitable for a woman to have read them. (One of these was Scenes from a Courtesan's Life, but honestly, it's tame, nothing to shock anyone, I would have thought, but then, she was a Quaker.) What's more five of the stories were omitted from the 'complete' edition, because they were too rude.
So obviously there were publishers/translators in Britain who had a profound influence on what was made available from French authors.
Dagny wrote: "Lisa wrote: "BTW I have found out something interesting about translations and censorship of a different kind"I'm so glad you found that and brought it to our attention. Thanks. We ran across tha..." Makes you wish you'd been a fly on the wall when she came across the 'bolder' bits and could see her expression, eh?
Lisa wrote: "I have found out something interesting about translations and censorship."Thank you for sharing this wonderful blog.
It was surprising that the reference to de Sade, which I believe could be interpreted as rather important to this work, was not included in the translation. I am now aware of censorship and I appreciate this.
The de Sade info was quite useful, and it does make me cherish Zola's literary brazenness and the dangers of censorship. On the other hand, censorship made Zola available, and Victorians were able to read him. Hopefully, there were many who spoke French fluently, traveled freely, purchased and read books in original. Linguistic sedition:-)
Zulfiya wrote: "The de Sade info was quite useful, and it does make me cherish Zola's literary brazenness and the dangers of censorship. On the other hand, censorship made Zola available, and Victorians were abl..." *chuckle* Linguistic sedition, I love it!
Mod
For those reading the "censored" version, do you have a comment about Mme de Llorentz "decolletage" where Plouguern says "One of them is going to pop out, eh? The left one?" (this is while they are getting seated for dinner). That made me laugh but I wondered if the translator left it out, we already know that lady's dress is very attention-getting. Also the next day there's a discussion about a couple separating because the husband is impotent. It says that the speaker used such decent legal phrases that Mme de Combelot didn't understand and asked for explanation. Was that in your version?
Lisa wrote @ 12: That's interesting, I just checked in my Kindle edition, de Sade is not mentioned, only a book called Leonora the Gipsy, which Clorinde says she has read in Italian when she was quite little. It might be a reference to the opera Il Trovatore by Verdi, I am a bit hazy about the plot. Wikipedia says that was a Spanish play, not an Italian novel though of course the libretto is in Italian"I am not very sure about the connection with Verdi’s Il Trovatore, because in the plot of the opera, Leonora is a dame d’honneur of the Princess of Aragon. The gipsy is Azucena. And there is no marriage in Verdi’s opera.
Dagny wrote: "Clorinde mentioned going to the Academy and seeing an author inducted. This would be the Académie française. (...) I tried to figure how if this was a reference to an actual author but no luck. I looked at photos of many of the authors inducted around that time and none I saw were totally bald, however the photos could well have been of the author at an earlier time in his life.I think the reference is to Flaubert (almost bald!), who had just published Madame Bovary. The novel was considered immoral and obscene by censors and Flaubert was put to trial in 1957 in correctional court, and eventually acquitted.
Here is a picture of the Forrest of Compiègne in autumn. I visited it several times and keep going back. It is something exceptional. It is like a huge park, crisscrossed by many 'hunting alleys' like the trail in the picture. There are white sign posts on the intersections (you see one in the background). So Clorinde could hardly get lost on her wild ride.
Wendel wrote: "Here is a picture of the Forrest of Compiègne in autumn. I visited it several times and keep going back. It is something exceptional. It is like a huge park, crisscrossed by many 'hunting alleys' ..."
LOL Speaking only for myself and not all women in general, I can get lost in a supermarket car park that's full of signs...
The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910
Books mentioned in this topic
The Children's Book (other topics)The Censor's Library: Uncovering the Lost History of Australia's Banned Books (other topics)
We are reading through Christmas, so brace yourselves, and we shall start with the very risque chapter.