Flights of Fantasy discussion
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I'm torn on trigger warnings in general. On the one hand, I totally get when people are bothered by things and don't want to see them, and I think that people should have that choice for themselves. I understand this, because in my mind, this is the same way I view any spoilers. If you don't want to see them, you shouldn't have to. However, it's different from spoilers because rather than wanting to experience the book or show or article or whatever-it-is, some want to know when that experience will affect them in ways that they do not want.
I think that, insensitive as it surely is, if people are seriously bothered by something, to the point that even seeing a reference to it is traumatizing to them, that person should be trying to work through that in some sort of therapy so that they are no longer debilitated by the prospect of having a traumatizing event reference jump out at them unexpectedly.
I understand that there are real and serious PTSD issues that are linked to this - but in my opinion, it does not help to shelter one from terrible things if that's the ONLY action being taken. They also need to try to work through the trauma itself. The world is full of terrible realities, and one cannot be 100% sheltered from them.
Finally, I disagree with trigger warnings because they don't just affect the one who is potentially "triggered" but tend to make assumptions about the reader/viewer's ability to handle ideas or concepts. I understand that this is intended to try to "protect" the few from potential trauma, but what it's actually doing, in my opinion, is treating everyone who sees the warning as though they are not capable or mature enough to cope with a difficult subject.
I've read a couple of articles on this, which I find interesting and that I think make really great points:
The Atlantic: The Coddling of the American Mind
The Guardian: Trigger Warnings can be Counterproductive
Scientia Salon: The False Dichotomy of Trigger Warnings
Anyway... I'm not a psychiatrist or psychologist, and I know that all that probably makes me look like a giant asshole. I'm really not, or don't intend to be. I don't want people to be hurt or bothered by something that traumatizes them. But I don't think that trigger warnings are the way to get there. It's like putting a rug over a stain on the carpet. The stain is still there, but now you just don't have to see it... until the rug is moved and you eventually have to deal with the stain, which may be much harder to get rid of now that it's set in.
Look, you just hit a hot button. I've said before the fact that I've lived life and lived through things that hurt and don't need them in my free time reading does not mean I need to "work through" something. I hate certain kinds of emotional manipulation. It works in books and if that's what someone wants that's their business. I cared for my wife in ill health for years. As a kid I had a dog I loved killed and it's tied in with another even deeper (what I think of as) betrayal. I don't need to vicariously live through the pain of loss. I've been there.
Also if a person wants escapism, then it's their time and if they're buying the book it's their money. I used to work with a guy who preached that movies should never be simply escapist but should be heavy with meaning.
Sometimes we need escapism. If you are expressing your own beliefs, that is good, fine, cool. I believe in everyone's right to believe what they want and to express those views. Just remember your freedom extends to the edges of out freedom. If someone doesn't want to read about a certain kind of pain that's their call.
By the way, not angry just have had this discussion before when I give a book full of pain and angst a low rating.
Mike, first of all, I did NOT say that you are not free to decide what you want to read about, nor that MY right to decide trumps anyone else's. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying that if people truly are experiencing PTSD triggers, they should get help for that.
I've been in groups with you for several years now, and I've seen you calmly console people who've had their share of pain and loss. I know that you have your own struggles, and I'm not discounting that. I'm well aware of the fact that you have topics you prefer not to read about, and that might upset you, but that's quite different than being debilitated by them.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Look, you just hit a hot button. I've said before the fact that I've lived life and lived through things that hurt and don't need them in my free time reading does not mean I need to "work through" something.I hate certain kinds of emotional manipulation. It works in books and if that's what someone wants that's their business. I cared for my wife in ill health for years. As a kid I had a dog I loved killed and it's tied in with another even deeper (what I think of as) betrayal. I don't need to vicariously live through the pain of loss. I've been there.
Also if a person wants escapism, then it's their time and if they're buying the book it's their money. I used to work with a guy who preached that movies should never be simply escapist but should be heavy with meaning.
Sometimes we need escapism. If you are expressing your own beliefs, that is good, fine, cool. I believe in everyone's right to believe what they want and to express those views. Just remember your freedom extends to the edges of out freedom. If someone doesn't want to read about a certain kind of pain that's their call.
By the way, not angry just have had this discussion before when I give a book full of pain and angst a low rating."
This.
I don't talk about emotional issues/concerns regularly, but take my word for it that I've taken the time to "work through" my issues. I know what they are and (basically) why they exist. But that doesn't change that I read for pleasure. I am an escapist reader. When I am triggered, I am no longer experiencing pleasure. I am not being entertained.
Becky, I think your issues with trigger warnings are closer to your issues with spoilers - it ruins your experience.
My issues with triggers is that they fuck up parts of my life. That's a big freaking deal to me and I don't play around with my mental health. I don't want that shit in my head.
I'm a huge advocate of trigger warnings while still being jealous of you people who don't have any worries.
Now, I can say that the way a lot of trigger warnings are a bit in your face and a lot of authors use them more as advertising copy than a true warning. They could be written in way that won't spoil books - but allow the person who would suffer from night terrors to avoid.
Oh wow. Who are the "you people who don't have any worries" and how can I join?
Chris wrote: "Oh wow. Who are the "you people who don't have any worries" and how can I join?"You fly out here to Colorado and smoke a LOT of legal weed. Then you talk about puppies. It's great!
I used to live out there, actually. I had to move away because I had too many worries.
Thanks, guys, your serious discussion drew me in, then Chris and James' silliness clinched it--I have to join this group. And I love the jokes, anyway.
Chris wrote: "Oh wow. Who are the "you people who don't have any worries" and how can I join?"Dude, you find out, you text me ASAP. I want to be down, too.
Tessa wrote: "Thanks, guys, your serious discussion drew me in, then Chris and James' silliness clinched it--I have to join this group. And I love the jokes, anyway."Welcome.
;-)
We're happy because our Broncos won the Super Bowl. We might not be as silly if the Carolina Pussycats had won.
I don't know... I like kitties AND ponies!(and puppies, in case I didn't mention)
Pussycats, ponies, puppies, and panthers. It all works as long as it isn't Patriots.
Becky wrote: "I'm torn on trigger warnings in general. On the one hand, I totally get when people are bothered by things and don't want to see them, and I think that people should have that choice for themselves..."I'm just going to throw it out there and say that I do agree with this, but only to a certain extent. Here's why....
Let me start by saying that I'm not good at putting together arguments like this in a way that says what I want to say and that makes sense, which is why I usually just lurk on this stuff. But since I have some personal experience here, I want to chime in.
Re: "I think that, insensitive as it surely is, if people are seriously bothered by something, to the point that even seeing a reference to it is traumatizing to them, that person should be trying to work through that in some sort of therapy so that they are no longer debilitated by the prospect of having a traumatizing event reference jump out at them unexpectedly. "
I definitely agree with this. However! Working through something and being done working through something are two different things. There was a long period of time after my son died during which reading anything, or seeing anything, with a child being hurt, would take me right back to that horrible moment. It was absolutely horrible. I was in therapy and support groups, but it was just too soon for me to be better yet. During that time I greatly appreciated friends who would give me warning about books I shouldn't read and movies I shouldn't see. Now, going on five years later, I wouldn't say I'm better (I never will be), but I've worked through my issues to a point where reading it or seeing it doesn't make me relive it or relate it back to me. Hell, I read Dark Places, which is like a giant trigger for my situation, and I had no issues with it.
That said, not everyone is as resilient as me, and not everyone who tries to work through an issue in all the correct ways actually succeeds in working through it.
So while I agree it theory, in reality I can also see the need for trigger warnings for those who can't work through or are currently trying to work through their issues.
Holy wow, that's the longest post I've ever written. Sorry! :-P
MrsJoseph wrote: "Becky, I think your issues with trigger warnings are closer to your issues with spoilers - it ruins your experience.My issues with triggers is that they fuck up parts of my life. That's a big freaking deal to me and I don't play around with my mental health. I don't want that shit in my head."
I won't argue that it does ruin my experience of a book to see nearly every potential conflict spelled out right in the book description with a warning, which is why I would like for them to be spoiler hidden.
However, the rest of my post is valid as well. It bothers me that as a society, we're infantilizing and sheltering people from even the thought of upsetting material rather than encouraging them to get help for the issues that cause them to be so affected by it.
I'm not worry free, and I'm not even trauma free. I've gone through and dealt with my own issues. I'm not trivializing or disregarding or discounting anyone's experiences. I don't want people to continue to be hampered by them and to not live in fear that they might have them rear their ugly head at any moment.
If something is so upsetting that it "fucks up parts of your life", I think you should seek help for that, simply because I don't want you to have to live with the dread of running into something that would do that to you unexpectedly.
Trigger warnings are a band-aid. How can there be a warning for every potential trigger that might upset someone? It's impossible. In one of those articles, it was mentioned that the word "violate" should be prohibited because of the connotation to sexual violence. In a LAW class. There's no way that every upsetting thing can be guarded against, which is why I think that helping to actually deal with the underlying issue is a much more realistic solution.
Anyway, like I said, I'm not a psychiatrist, and I don't pretend to know what happens in anyone's head. I'm not trying to offend or belittle or discount anyone's experiences. But I still don't think that trigger warnings are the right way to go about dealing with troubling material.
Dawn wrote: "Holy wow, that's the longest post I've ever written. Sorry! :-P"Nothing to be sorry about. Love your insight ♥
Chris wrote: "Pussycats, ponies, puppies, and panthers. It all works as long as it isn't Patriots."Ooooh, alliteration! You be fancy!
Dawn, you have a lot of salient points, as well as experience.
Trigger warnings don't bother me. TBH, one of the reasons I don't use them is because it flat-out does not occur to me. I don't have any actual triggers myself, just things I prefer to avoid. Graphic rape, for instance.
I'm sad that after this post, my Harley gif will roll to the previous page :(
Dawn wrote: "During that time I greatly appreciated friends who would give me warning about books I shouldn't read and movies I shouldn't see. Now, going on five years later, I wouldn't say I'm better (I never will be), but I've worked through my issues to a point where reading it or seeing it doesn't make me relive it or relate it back to me. Hell, I read Dark Places, which is like a giant trigger for my situation, and I had no issues with it.That said, not everyone is as resilient as me, and not everyone who tries to work through an issue in all the correct ways actually succeeds in working through it.
So while I agree it theory, in reality I can also see the need for trigger warnings for those who can't work through or are currently trying to work through their issues. "
I agree, but I guess the difference for me is the WAY that trigger warnings are handled. In your situation, people who knew you and what you were going through helped to specifically guide you away from books that might upset you. Which is helpful and useful and considerate.
But the blanket warning, which tries to cover every potential issue, is the wrong way in my opinion - it's saying "People who read this may not be able to deal with X, Y, Z issues. Beware." And I think that these kinds of warnings are more problematic than they are helpful.
James wrote: "Repost!"That's almost as bad as review floating...
Chris wrote: "I'm sad that after this post, my Harley gif will roll to the previous page :("Repost?
Chris wrote: "I'm sad that after this post, my Harley gif will roll to the previous page :("Oh no, I'm sorry! Here's one to make up for it:
Ahh, thank you Becky :)Tessa, review floating is a common thing you might see on GR where somebody writes a review and posts it. They then later "edit" and submit it again so that it will float to the top of the status updates. This is done to increase the number of "likes" they could get on the review, as they float it for more people to see it.
I agree we need to talk about puppies...the idea that people are being infantilized by telling them what to expect aso they can decide whether they want to read that book or not is silly. We've moved into an area where we are turning the proverbial molehill into the proverbial mountain. I don't want to ruin a book for anyone. I'm not for spoilers, I'm just for people being able to find out what a book involves if they want to know.When I put any kind of spoiler into a review I label it and hide it. People are free to read it if they want. If I choose not to read a book about a depressing subject in my free time that's my business and I'm not saying people need to be restrained from writing depressing books.
May we drop this now or does someone need the last word?
We have 2 cats...the young one has an extra cuteness gene yet he enjoys biting us when he plays. he's sending mixed signals.
Seems that someone did need the last word...
Oh hell. Use that word and you're going to set off my triggers.
Yeah. I'm floating this.
James wrote: "And the word is... asparagus?"I love asparagus. I do not love how it makes my pee smell the next day. O_o
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I agree we need to talk about puppies...the idea that people are being infantilized by telling them what to expect aso they can decide whether they want to read that book or not is silly. We've mov..."Mike, all due respect... It's not your job to police the thread and tell people when they need to move on from a topic you don't want to discuss anymore (never mind that the discussion had already moved on naturally on it's own). If you are done discussing something, be done discussing it, stop commenting, and let anyone else who still wants to discuss it have their say. If things get out of control a mod will handle it.
Dawn wrote: "Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I agree we need to talk about puppies...the idea that people are being infantilized by telling them what to expect aso they can decide whether they want to read that book..."Actually, that's my fault. I posted "Can we talk about puppies now?" a while back. Won't happen again.
James wrote: "Actually, that's my fault. I posted "Can we talk about puppies now?" a while back. Won't happen again. ..."No, you're fine James. You were trying to lighten the mood (and it seemed to work).
What she's talking about is making a huge soapbox list of points and counterpoints and then calling for an end to conversation so that's the final say. There's a difference.
No worries...
I wasn't aware I was trying to....Why are girl villains always good-looking?
Oh, crap, I almost got kicked out of Colorado!
James wrote: "Oh, crap, I almost got kicked out of Colorado!"What??
Did you say something nice about the Red Wings???
Because male comic-book fans are superficial chauvinists?Unfair generalization on my part, but the fact is female objectification is a long-standing issue in the comics community. Once upon a time, you had less attractive female characters, like Amanda Waller, but now even she has been retconned into a Halle Berry clone. It's okay, Granny Goodness is still unattractive.
Chris wrote: "James wrote: "Oh, crap, I almost got kicked out of Colorado!"What??
Did you say something nice about the Red Wings???"
No, that's blasphemous! I was almost caught worrying.
Becky wrote: "If something is so upsetting that it "fucks up parts of your life", I think you should seek help for that, simply because I don't want you to have to live with the dread of running into something that would do that to you unexpectedly. As I said before, trust me when I say I have. No need to prompt me to look for help. Thanks.
We all are different and "no man is an island living unto himself." There are things that would never bother me that might freak the shit out of you and vice versa.
Maybe I'm not making myself clear. Reading is my entertainment. It is what I do for pleasure. It is also what I do when I want to escape things. That means that I turn to reading specifically when things are bad in my life. So, yes. I want to avoid that shit. Life is bad enough right now. It's a little insulting to call it "infantilizing" - it's allowing me to make a choice and I am then free to exercise that choice or not.
James wrote: "Because male comic-book fans are superficial chauvinists?Unfair generalization on my part, but the fact is female objectification is a long-standing issue in the comics community. Once upon a time..."
I remembered that DC recently did one of their continuity sweeps, so I double-checked Granny Goodness; still terrifying.
Rosalinde wrote: "What about female comic fans that find Harley hot?"I don't think there's a problem with finding an attractive character hot. The problem is that every female character has to be.
That standard is less true for males. Look at characters like Swamp Thing, Clayface, the Blob, Strong Guy, etc.
Hello, I'm new here. Was reading back a few pages and just want to say that I'm in the "no dead dogs" camp.I am still traumatized over Ol' Yeller and I read it in ninth grade. I won't pick up any book that has a dog or a horse on the cover. I used to read James Herriott until I realized that he depressed the hell out of me, too.
When I am reading a book and an animal character pops up I go back to the reviews to see if the dog/cat/horse/bunny dies. (Usually the one stars will mention it.)
I'm sure I'm missing out on some great books, but if I want to get bummed out I can just turn on the news.
Zippy
Had to throw a couple Marvel characters in there, show some objectivity... Excelsior!
Chris wrote: (defined review floating)Thanks! Have done this unintentionally. Will strive for intentionality now. Heh.
Rosalinde wrote: "I don't know. I'd totally rock Strong Guy's world."Be careful, he's surprisingly fragile.
Flights of Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
Dark Places (other topics)Trigger Warning: Short Fictions and Disturbances (other topics)
New Suicide Squad, Volume 2: Monsters (other topics)
Pounded in the Butt by My Own Butt (other topics)
Pounded In The Butt By My Book "Pounded In The Butt By My Own Butt" (other topics)
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That makes a lot of sense. I'm just still not used to trigger warnings yet, as I really only became aware of the with the release of Trigger Warning: Short Fictions and Disturbances last year. I am ridiculously out of the loop on stuff.
I guess I'm insensitive. I'm working on it.