Cozy Mysteries discussion
What do you think?
>
Suggestions on where authors should not cut corners in their writing
date
newest »
newest »
I don't know that authors DO cut corners on this stuff. If you've come across it, I believe you, but most authors I know tend to spend too much time on research and then want to include it ALL in the book. Then they come to critique and everyone tells them it's a data dump so take it out.I know I did a huge amount of research for my books (Safe House and Safe Beginnings) from visiting battered women's shelters to the fire department to spending weeks in the citizen police academy--and all of that was apart from calls I made to experts and internet research and books I read.
I just read Suzanne Arruda's The Serpent's Daughter (a historical mystery) and I can tell she's done a ton of research. I read the book because I wanted to learn about it.
Christine wrote: " I don't know that authors DO cut corners on this stuff. If you've come across it, I believe you, but most authors I know tend to spend too much time on research and then want to include it ALL in..."Christine:
Thanks for the input. Since this is a Cozy Mysteries group, my post was meant for those books only. Sorry for the misclarification, I just thought that would be understood. On short fast reads like cozy mysteries I've heard a lot of comments from people in general (on here and in my life) that these kinds of reads tend to be more story oriented than factually based, which is fine, but people who work or participate in areas (such as the renaissance faires or book binding businesses which I listed above) have gone on what they know or have heard of more so than experience or research and many readers I have come into contact with have expressed that it is kind of annoying to read about something you are involved in personally and it is misrepresented. It's like me being in law and watching Law and Order...fun show but legally inaccurate in many ways. The books you are stating you write about are WAY out of cozy mystery league and were not even in consideration when I posted this. This post would not pertain to them in any way.
My books, Safe House and Safe Beginnings, are cozy mystery. I did that intentionally. There is no graphic violence, no graphic language, and an amateur sleuth within a small community. And I have to say, I don't think I'm in the minority. Most authors want to make it right. Many of us get stuck on research.
This was not supposed to be a discussion for authors to defend themselves, I'm sorry you feel that it was. If the majority gives 100% to their research, then I applaude you all for that, but there are some that don't and they have been commented on here in the cozy mystery series' that are posted. That is why I asked the question...what subjects do people find consistently an issue that are not as researched and what can they make sure to add specifically that may make their information more accurate from a reader's point of view? If you notice from my original post, this is an editing issue also. The author may put something in that gets edited out and is actually something readers, if they knew, may feel should have been in the book. This was not just about authors.My live book club, with authors, found it most helpful. There is one series I read that the timeline is impossible generationally, but I simply overlooked that. However, I would have enjoyed the books more if I could have related the past and present information and experiences in a more believable fashion. In this case, true historic events were referenced over a person's lifetime that there was no way the person could have lived through and experienced all of these events happening and be the age they were. Timelines can be an issue for authors because they get lost in writing the story and lose track of the plausibility of things happending when they do. I found more than one book/series with this issue and I would make the suggestion to any author that this be paid attention to. If this does not pertain to an author then that is not something for them to worry about. If an author writes and uses events that can be outlined in a timeline, it may be helpful to know that readers do pay attention to this sort of thing and to be careful that their times match up believably with other events in thier books. That is simply all I was trying to faciliate there. I also know a couple of authors who do no research at all and it was helpful for them to know that people do pay attention to these things, no matter how small a fact may seem. These people just liked to write stories.
My apologies if the subject offended you, as I had not heard of your books or you prior to your post, so without reading your writings I could not venture to agree or disagree with you factually concerning your subjects, but I believe you when you say you put the time and effort in your research. Maybe this discussion is a little too deep for this site, but it went over well in person.
Best of luck to you in your future books!
Dear Christine,I signed up for the cozy mysteries discussion group recently. I have no comments on how authors research their books or critical remarks. I either like something or I don't, if I don't I don't say much about it. I'm interested in finding new cozy authors to read. Could you let me know what your name is and titles so I can look for them at the library?
Thanks
Lisa
Thanks for asking, Lisa. Safe Beginnings is the first book about a fire in the battered women's shelter.Safe House is just coming out in print this month.
and my name is Christine Duncan
Christine wrote: "Thanks for asking, Lisa. Safe Beginnings is the first book about a fire in the battered women's shelter.Safe House is just coming out in print this month.
and my name is Christine Duncan
"Thanks Christine, for letting me know, I will put those on my to be read list right away. And as far as writters go, more kudos to you and any writter for putting themselves and their creative ideas out there, I feel that way about anyone who would write something irregardless of wether I like a certain style, genre or not. Thank goodness someone has the dream or toughness to do that, so that we all have such wonderful stuff to read about and explore!
I will answer this as an author of a cozy paranormal mystery series.Sometimes, the issue of how much to explain/or leave out is in the hands of the publisher and the author and editor/publisher might disagree on this issue.
I had this experience when I was writing non-fiction and enough said, I won't go into it. But when I decided to switch to paranormal mystery fiction, I knew I wanted a publisher who would appreciate my need to add author's notes at the end that would clarify some of the background reserach that goes inot my novels. I hate for readers to be left wondering and since my novels involve topics/elements that I spent a great deal of time researching, I wanted the reader to be able to relate to these topics/elements (some of which include Celtic history and Victorian sleight-of-hand magic)wihtout putting the book down and hopping on the keyborad to get the background needed to relate to the story.
Not all publishers are agreeable to a fiction author including this kind of notes in the back matter, especially since doing so takes up as much paper and ink as a couple of chapters.
Elizabeth Eagan-Cox, author of the Shannon Delaney cozy paranormal mystery series.
www.ElizabethEaganCox.net
Elizabeth wrote: "I will answer this as an author of a cozy paranormal mystery series.Sometimes, the issue of how much to explain/or leave out is in the hands of the publisher and the author and editor/publisher..."Thanks for explaining that, makes a lot of sense. I'm glad there are some publishers willing to allow the research info, it helps so much.
As a mystery author, I feel that I should research a new hobby/occupation that I'm going to include in a book at least enough that I understand how characters talk who engage in that hobby or occupation. For instance, in my next manuscript, I plan to include a fly-fishing tournament as part of the plot. I am not a fly-fisherman myself and don't intend to become one. However, I took a 2-hour introductory class with a guide, bought and read how-to books, interviewed a youth fly-fishing team member, and in August I will spend a day and a half observing a fly-fishing tournament taking place nearby. Not only will I record the competition procedures, equipment, fishing techniques, etc. but I'll also be writing down snippets of language that the fisherman and judges use. Having my characters "speak the lingo" is all-important to me because that more than anything gives that semblance of reality. I also try to get someone in the hobby/occupation to review scenes for me after I write them to make sure they are authentic sounding.
As a reader, I like to learn something when I read, so I appreciate it when other authors go to the same trouble to research their history in a historical mystery novel or the hobby or occupation in a cozy mystery that features that hobby or occupation.
As a reader, one thing (at least) annoys me: when a mystery about a "real document," leaves it unclear if it's really real, or fictionally real. The preface will say, "Dear Reader, this is a true story about the Penteliani Codex, a pivotal document in the history of the Western world..." and Chapter One will read something like, "The doorbell rang--but I found nothing out there but an oversized envelope. When I opened the envelope, a crumbling secret map to the Penteliani Codex of 1521 fell into my hands...." The author has left it unclear as to where the fiction started, and you don't know whether to buy into it or not.As a writer, I've learned that research is essential. It's a little like lying, oddly enough. One lie leads to another, until things spin out of control. Same in writing. One idea, fact, or supposition leads to another. If those are not accurate, then your whole story can veer off track.
An off-the-cuff example: The diva shows up one spring evening at 7:55 to sing for an 8:00 show, angering everyone. She claims it's because she forgot to reset her watch after arriving from Saskatchwan, plus yesterday's switch to Daylight Savings Time. A crime ensues, and the time discrepencies are crucial to your beloved detective solving the case.
The book comes out and, to your dismay, is raked over the coals: every single review and fan letter points out that the whole premise of the book is impossible as Saskatchewan doesn't observe DST. Your story was built on an incorrect assumption that led in the wrong direction.
Barbara DaCosta
http://www.barbaradacosta.com
Beth wrote: "As a mystery author, I feel that I should research a new hobby/occupation that I'm going to include in a book at least enough that I understand how characters talk who engage in that hobby or occup..."Beth, I think that's great. I know writers invest a lot of time and study, and like you, do the activities or at the very least learn about them from a good source. Have you read Victoria Houston's fly-fishing series? Probably in a different vein than you are thinking of, but I will be interested in your book when it comes out. I've often thought of trying it, my fishing experience has been mostly salt-water. This is what I like so much about books, and particularly mysteries seem to have a lot of facts and history in them, and cozies are no exception.
Thanks for the suggestion, Betty! I'll put Victoria Houston's books on my TBR list.
If there is a lot of technical data, then I don't want the author to cut corners. Some authors offer enough information to hold my interest. When it's a topic I'm not familiar with, I love extra information so I can learn more about it.
Hi Beth! Welcome! I agree with what you said.I always enjoy learning something about a subject I'm not that familiar with...and cozies are written with so many different subjects, I've learned about cooking, glass blowing, fine art, bookbinding, libraries, the TV industry, flower shops, crafts, etc...even if its not something I'm immediately interested in, I find it interesting to know something about these things anyway. You never know what you can learn from a book!
Lisa
Lisa, It's like going to school, but sitting curled up with a comfy blanket.
Hi Beth, I totally agree! I've learned so much from just reading books...I can have a pretty equal discussion with my sister who's got a PHD and doesn't read books at all....( I also look up words I don't know so when I run into them again I know them or hopefully I do! Plus its not like school but enjoyable instead.
As far as the general discussion about cutting corners on research...I either haven't found this to be true or don't know enough about the subject(s) to know the difference. But I think its a matter of finding the balance of just how much research/info to make it interesting and not so much that you feel you are listening to a pedantic professor. There are some historical type books I've read that are so much into the details of the architechture, furniture names, clothing names, concurrent historical events, building material explanations etc etc that I would need a specialized dictionary just to figure out what all those terms are at all....after I woke up from being put to sleep....It also depends on what the author is trying to communicate....If its a historical manual or a specialized history buff edition fine go for tons of details...but for the average reader who just wants an entertaining story, no. I've also noticed that when a story has, for my taste, too many details of those things, the action/ story line moves very slowly because the details are emphasized so much..depends what one likes.
Lisa wrote: "Hi Beth, I totally agree! I've learned so much from just reading books...I can have a pretty equal discussion with my sister who's got a PHD and doesn't read books at all....( I also look up words ..."How can your sister not read books at all. That is such a foreign concept to me. The first thing I look at (or for) when I walk into a person's house is their books. It amazes me when people don't have any. Of course then when people walk into my house they say "wow do you have a lot of books" and I usually say, "yep I do". I have multiple bookshelves in just about every room. I have 10 bookshelves in my dining room which I use for a library. I don't even own a dining room table because there isn't anyplace to put it. I have bunches of boxes of books that I don't have room on any of my shelves for (and I double row my bookshelves if the shelf is wide enough as well as stacking books on top of the double rows.) My best guess is that I have more than 10,000 books in my house.
Sorry, I went way off topic but I just can't imagine someone not reading at all (and having a PhD).
Yeah, its wierd isn't it?! She does do a lot of other things but still....The first thing you would see in my house are the bookshelves, when you walk into the first room...( but those are full, once I've read something I usually take it to the used bookstare and trade them in for more) but, I sure would like to be able fit in some more bookshelves) The best would be to have a room just as a library....( a big room!)
That's great that you have the dining room for that, you didn't really need that dining room anyway right??
Funny you should say that about bookshelves in each room....I was just thinking wouldn't that be great!
I think research is a wonderful thing. Something that will take me out of a book very quickly is bad medical detail. Characters who are knocked out, shot, or beaten, which sometimes happens in even a cozy mystery, need medical attention. Sometimes the writer either gives bad detail or none at all. With the access to the internet, there's really little excuse to make some of the blunders I've read.
Lisa wrote: "Hi Beth, I totally agree! I've learned so much from just reading books...I can have a pretty equal discussion with my sister who's got a PHD and doesn't read books at all....( I also look up words ..."In defence of your sister, I know that if you ahve to do a ton of reading or writing for your degree and/or career you often don't want to do any reading for your pleasure. You can even burn out for quite a few years. Don't know if that is the case here but I know that I didn't do any reading that wasn't directly related to my Masters degree for the entire time I was working on it and then for a number of years after.
And, I can also understand doing other things. But, yes, I do read now. And when I do, I like the books to be logical, teach me something, accurate and use hte correct words (recently came across a book that talked for 2 pages about the casket that the father tenderly made for his stillborn child only to find out that he then nailed it shut because it was a coffin! I needed to change the image I had built in my head and it also made me suspect much of what was said later in the novel).
Shannon wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Hi Beth, I totally agree! I've learned so much from just reading books...I can have a pretty equal discussion with my sister who's got a PHD and doesn't read books at all....( I also l..."Hi Shannon, Yes I can certainly understand it if she didn't want to ever read another thing! Plus I know she has long work hours and I think she finds it more relaxing to do outside things whenever she has free time like gardening. Anyway I also agree about plots being logical. That drives me nuts when you read something and all of a sudden some illogical piece of story was added or it jumps to something else abruptly and you're scratching your head thinking, "what the heck was that?" I also can't do long meandering books or "stream of conciousness" type stories, or stories that explain the architchture and wallpaper patterns for a chapter in between movement in the story.I don't mean to be critical I just think if you're going to tell a story add those details just enough to make it interesting not so much that it becomes a lecture on styles of a period of history. Anyway, thanks for commenting!
The only cozies I've read which overlap with my professional experience are the Joanne Fluke ones. Part of the reason I really like the series is that it reminds me of the days when I baked professionally myself - so she's certainly captured my experience.I think research shows through in the little details - how the characters act and talk about things - so it doesn't need to be (in fact, shouldn't be) an infodump.
So, yeah. I think research is important, because you need to know the world the characters live in.
I agree, Rachel! It's the little details that make the reader feel they are a part of the story world of a cozy mystery. When I research a sport or occupation or whatever for a cozy mystery novel, one of the most important things I take notes on is the special vocabulary that people who engage in that sport/career/etc. use. For instance, I loved the expression "He's soft on the rod," for an expert fly fisher, and I use that expression in my upcoming Wicked Eddies release. I read partly to experience some new place/time or some new avocation, so I appreciate it when an author gets the details right and teaches me something.
I also feel the author needs to do his/her research carefully and try to be as accurate as possible without beating the reader over the head with too much detailed information. At the same time, there may be a little bit of license taken in the writing - perhaps moving a date of an insignificant event ever so slightly to better fit the story so that it balances against the true date of the more relevant event. The funny part is when research results in the book being accurate, but a reader vehemently disagrees because their personal experience was different (in my case, I put a road and building entrance as it was when Maze in Blue was set, but any one coming to the University of Michigan's campus a few months later wouldn't remember the road that way because it was rerouted when a new building was built on campus). I think it is important to be as accurate as possible whether describing a weapon, a process, or even using the correct titles and ranks of people.
The only thing that ever really bothers me as a reader is errors with police procedure and the court / criminal justice system. I may be uber sensitive to this type of thing because of my line of work, but I think these types of things should be properly researched and accurately presented. I understand that not everyone is an expert on the law, but I feel like you should know at least the basics if you are writing a murder mystery!
Someone who is just a lay person reading these and enjoying them may not notice, but I wanted to ask if anyone had any constructive advice for authors regarding what the minimum research should be on any specific topics relating to what they are writing about. I know that if I were to write something, I could probably swing a story about a ren faire thinking that I knew what I was talking about because I have been to a few. But I am not an avid faire attender, so there may be crucial things that someone who does go often could offer guidance on what really should be covered.
While cozy mysteries are just that, cozy, and are meant to be relaxing, enjoyable and not extremely thought provoking, and I am not by any means suggesting that one write a 500 page book to accommodate an lengthy explanation of something,I think it is important to keep in mind that people of all walks of life read these, and butchering facts or falling short on research can really turn off an entire group of people who are familiar with the background setting.
Having said that, what I am really asking for here are thoughts and suggestions that readers have found somewhat repeatedly throughout their reading experience that authors seem to cut corners on (maybe at the suggestion of editors and/or publishers) that really make the difference between an “okay” story and a “great” story. Any suggestions?
Thanks and happy reading!!!!
Violet