1984
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Winston
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Deven
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Dec 11, 2013 01:11PM
When Winston delves into the past and looks into things that Big Brother would not look well upon he goes deeper and deeper but doesn't really affect anything. Is there something you would do differently to change something in this world?
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I was kind of dissapointed that Winston Didnt do much with his realization, but then you think about it. He was under constant brainwashing, so neither you nor i nor Winston could do a lot. I hoped he would form or join some kind of resistance but i can`t really complain because it worked out the way it was supposed to
Saulius wrote: "I was kind of dissapointed that Winston Didnt do much with his realization, but then you think about it. He was under constant brainwashing, so neither you nor i nor Winston could do a lot. I hoped..."He did do that, or so he thought. He joined O'Brien, thinking that he was a member of the Brotherhood and that he would be helping to undermine the state. Instead, he was just walking into the jaws of a waiting trap, and ended up condemning both himself and Julia to torture, humiliation, and eventual death.
I think Orwell made Winston ineffectual and made him a martyr specifically in order to break the fourth wall. The reader is supposed to be the next character in the story. Orwell was very concerned that Oceania could easily become a reality. He wanted the reader to avenge Winston's death in real life.This is what I like to think, anyway.
Orwell would probably agree with your take, Justin. As Matthew has said in another thread.., cautionary tales are of no use once the danger they warn of is already established. I wonder if the current YA dystopia formula of "young hotties" toppling their evil overlords between sexual diddling undercuts the Orwellian "call to vigilance". Do they promote cure over prevention?
E.D. wrote: "Orwell would probably agree with your take, Justin. As Matthew has said in another thread.., cautionary tales are of no use once the danger they warn of is already established. I wonder if the cu..."
I said that? Sounds like something I might say, but...
However, these female heroines of whom you speak do do that, don't they? Their fight against the totalitarian, which always seems to end in victory, could be seen as an indication that - as with all the other elements of the story, like trying to decide between boy 1 and boy 2 - its all about wish-fulfillment and not vigilance.
Which makes me worry about the state of dystopian literature and how people seem to think its coming back because of the success of the Hunger Games and Divergent. These stories are not about informing people of the tools totalitarians use to get us to surrender our freedoms. They are teen angst and drama writ large. If Orwell, Huxley, Zamyatin, LeGuin or any of their contemporaries knew that this was what had become of their respective sub-genre, I'm sure they'd turn over in their graves!
Well observed.
I could give a schumer as long as they continue to foment unrest and dissent among the Obama-voting little nitwits. As long as they're in a continual state of rebellion, there's at least a chance that they might actually stumble into something reasonable, as opposed to swaying and chanting in unison for whatever trendy hip cool neofascist demagogic scumbag of the moment...
Duane wrote: "I could give a schumer as long as they continue to foment unrest and dissent among the Obama-voting little nitwits. As long as they're in a continual state of rebellion, there's at least a chance ..."That was quite the political diatribe, Duane. Would you prefer they chant Tea Party slogans, carry guns to protests, call the president a n***** and tell him to go back to Africa, and threaten to overthrow the government in the name of preventing socialized medicine - claiming its the same as "National Socialism"? All the while ignoring things like illegal wars, the creation of a surveillance state, electoral fraud, the use of torture, indefinite detention and the suspension of Hanes corpus in the name of "security"? Would that seem reasonable to you?
I myself have not read any YA dystopian series, but if they are lacking somewhere, at least they might inspire young readers to level up to reading classic or contemporary dystopian literature. (If they are not lacking anywhere, then awesomesauce).And to chime in on the tangential argument: demagogs exist on both sides of the political aisle. Both types are dangerous. I want neither totalitarianism, nor mob rule.
Matthew wrote: "Would you prefer they chant Tea Party slogans, carry guns, call the president a n***** and tell him to go back to Africa, and to protests and threaten to overthrow the government in the name of preventing socialized medicine - claiming its the same as "National Socialism"? All the while ignoring things like illegal wars, the creation of a surveillance state, electoral fraud, the use of torture, indefinite detention "Thank you, Matthew. When I read Duane's comment, I was afraid I was going to have to write that. You saved me the trouble.
But maybe, thank you, Duane, for it is statements like yours which never fail to pull me from any complacency I may have developed. You are the yin to my yang.
Some of you seem to be suggesting that Winston was killed or died during the novel. (otherwise how could you say he was a martyr?) Winston does NOT die during the novel; on the final page he is still very much alive as a Chestnut Tree Cafe regular who loves Big Brother.
Where he will publicly profess his sorrow for being led astray right up to the moment of his impending execution.Sort of the point to his story, no?
Justin wrote: "I myself have not read any YA dystopian series, but if they are lacking somewhere, at least they might inspire young readers to level up to reading classic or contemporary dystopian literature. (I..."My daughter--the teacher--has used Hunger Games for exactly that reason..., and that hope. This doesn't alter my point. Rather, I think it illustrates it.
84's purpose is stimulation, HG's is titillation. 84 wants you to think and juxtapose, HG wants you to fantasize.
Which is more socially valuable?
Mare wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Would you prefer they chant Tea Party slogans, carry guns, call the president a n***** and tell him to go back to Africa, and to protests and threaten to overthrow the government in..."It's true, it takes all kinds to make a democratic and open system work. And we always need people, however inconsistent they may be with their criticism and opposition, to remind us not to get comfortable.
Norman wrote: "Some of you seem to be suggesting that Winston was killed or died during the novel. (otherwise how could you say he was a martyr?) Winston does NOT die during the novel; on the final page he is s..."Yes, but it's very much implied that he was about to die. As Winston said when he was describing the scene where he saw the disgraced Party members at the cafe, dissidents always disappear, reemerge after they've confessed and been made to submit, then disappear again never to be heard from again. It's the inevitable part of the Party's cycle that even after they've been broken, that thought criminals are not allowed to remain alive.
RTFB - O'Brien TOLD Winston that in the end they would shoot him after they'd made him "perfect". Winston WANTED them to shoot him.
He's right, Norman. O'Brien even went so far as to say that Winston would eventually be killed, thus removing any doubt about his fate. How did I miss that?
RTFB.I thought that was what I said.
More or less. :}
Norman wrote: "Some of you seem to be suggesting that Winston was killed or died during the novel. (otherwise how could you say he was a martyr?) Winston does NOT die during the novel; on the final page he is s..."Whether you are right about this doesn't change my point. Even if he doesn't die by the end of the final paragraph (which I think there's enough reason to think that he does), the final sentence "He loved Big Brother" implies that he is going to be executed.
Looking at this snippet from the second-to-last paragraph of the book, Winston appears to be in a reverie:
Winston, sitting in a blissful dream, paid no attention as his glass was filled up. He was not running or cheering any longer. He was back in the Ministry of Love, with everything forgiven, his soul white as snow. He was in the public dock, confessing everything, implicating everybody. He was walking down the white-tiled corridor, with the feeling of walking in sunlight, and an armed guard at his back. The long-hoped-for bullet was entering his brain.
You can certainly infer that the "long-hoped-for bullet" was metaphorical; a magic bullet of understanding, as opposed to a literal bullet that kills him. That's valid, as far as I am concerned. However, I think it is more visually interesting to infer from the same information that his entire reverie is colliding with reality, and the metaphors are simultaneously literal. I suppose that is a modernist interpretation of how the story unfolds in time, as opposed to how it's laid out in the narrative itself, but... 'Merica.
Now, was he actually a martyr? Earlier in the book it is said that the regime doesn't make martyrs by executing people who hate Big Brother, but only executes people who have seen the error of their ways and have repented. For Oceania, Winston is definitely not a martyr, but that doesn't really matter, does it? The reader knows that there was absolutely no free will involved in Winston's change in attitude toward Big Brother. The reader knows that his true personality was murdered in Room 101.
In any case, even if he doesn't die by the end of the last sentence of the book, he's going to be killed, and its purpose for the reader is the same either way: It ain't a happy ending. Go thou forth and avenge Winston!
Norman: I realize that what you pointed out doesn't necessarily imply that you disagree with the point I was making. I don't mean to puts words in your mouth.
Hey I know what... How about, he's "Virtually", but not "Physically" dead at the end of the book?Then we can argue about at what point he virtually died ?
Reminds me of when Rocky said to Bullwinkle..."we gotta get this information to Washington"...., and Bullwinkle said..."c'mon Rocky, that's silly. He's been dead for two-hundred years".
Which is but another example of why that cartoon show appealed to both adults and children.
