A Dance with Dragons
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difference between the wights and the Others
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The Others are a sort of mystical ice-race, exact origins and motives as yet unknown. Wights are re-animated corpses created by the Others to do their bidding and/or wreak general havoc, with some trace amounts of intelligence seemingly intact.Does that help? Other readers, does that cover it?
Yep, that's it in its entirety. The Others are the evil dudes coming with winter, the Wights are merely their minions whom they've already killed and now use to fight their battles.
Agreed. Just think of the Wights as a bunch of zombie slaves and the Others as the evil puppet masters controlling them.
The Others are prone to obsidian and valyrian steel. Wights on the other must be burned to the ground.
Agreed to all of the above except the "evil" label. That's not been proven.
perfect. thanks everyone!
Kenneth wrote: "Agreed to all of the above except the "evil" label. That's not been proven."Pretty much yes.
Actually if you use logical reasoning it's been disproven.
(view spoiler)
Kenneth wrote: "Agreed to all of the above except the "evil" label. That's not been proven."Uh, okay. Evil wasn't really meant to be a relevant characterization, at least not by me. I was really just playing up how they are portrayed. Which, as I recall, is as a race of ice creatures that are hostile to life as we know it and who periodically return to the Earth to spread darkness, cold and fear. If that's not a literary representation of evil I don't know what is.
Amber wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "Agreed to all of the above except the "evil" label. That's not been proven."Pretty much yes.
Actually if you use logical reasoning it's been disproven.
[spoilers removed]"
Yes, but Coldhands is a Wight, not an Other, which I believe is where the designation evil has been both applied and contested.
The Others are an opposing force. But don't characters also say "ice preserves"/"fire destroys"? Somehow everyone seems to think that the fire/dragons/Targs are the good guys (if there is even a "good guy") and the Others are the series' ultimate antagonist. I think it's GRRM's misdirection, and we'll see in future books if the Others are really so evil, or just misunderstood.
Yes, but Coldhands is a Wight, not an Other, which I believe is where the designation evil has been both applied and contested. (view spoiler)
Kenneth wrote: "The Others are an opposing force. But don't characters also say "ice preserves"/"fire destroys"? Somehow everyone seems to think that the fire/dragons/Targs are the good guys (if there is even a "g..."The reason they are seen as an antagonizing force is because that is how they are portrayed. Their presence coincides with extremely long nights and winter, their cold destroys all life before them, and they show no mercy for those they come across and destroy. To assume this is misdirection on GRRM's part is, in my humble opinion, to vastly overthink this.
Amber wrote: "Yes, but Coldhands is a Wight, not an Other, which I believe is where the designation evil has been both applied and contested. Logical deduction - wights are controlled by others - Coldhands i..."
That's not a logical deduction, it's an inference. And it's one that make several assumptions without explicit explanation. Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear. All we know is that he has been helpful to Bran, Hodor, and the Reeds, whereas all others are intent on killing.
So for us to assume he has a handler, that he has no freewill, or this own helpful nature proves his handler isn't evil, is entirely academic at this point.
But if I could make one last assumption of my own, I would say that Coldhands, if he was indeed being controlled, was being controlled by the Children of the Forest and the Three-Eyed Crow. I'd say that he was possessed of the same magic that the Others use to control the Wights and was dispatched to find Bran, Hodor and the Reeds, and guide them to the cave.
Matthew, consider that any one of the Iron Throne contenders considers the others mortal enemies and destroys their armies on sight, or attempts to. Consider the 'doom' in Essos. Consider that GRRM loves symbolism. It is too easy to write off the Others as the antagonist force and hope for some miraculous intervention on behalf of fire. Rather I think, like all of his other characters, things will be revealed to be more gray than black and white.
Kenneth wrote: "Matthew, consider that any one of the Iron Throne contenders considers the others mortal enemies and destroys their armies on sight, or attempts to. Consider the 'doom' in Essos. Consider that GRRM..."Yes, and I think your overthinking this. If we're to look at it in terms of symbolism, then the Others and the Dragons are clearly a union of opposites, forces of nature as much as light and dark and the seasons are. That's not a matter of morality, just the state of nature, and in that humanity would certainly consider the dark and the cold to be a mortal threat. Perhaps it's my fault too for saying evil but I have said that this was just a playful exaggeration, not something to be taken literally.
Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldhands, no. But it's been made clear that Wights are controlled by Others, it's also been made clear that Coldhands is a Wight, thus it is implied that Coldhands should also be controlled by an Other.
We've been given no reason to believe that Wights can function without the power of an Other, to assume that one could is simply not presented within the text that I've read.
So for us to assume he has a handler, that he has no freewill, or this own helpful nature proves his handler isn't evil, is entirely academic at this point.
Honestly it's more academic to think the opposite. If a wight can function on it's own, why don't other wights do so? If a wight doesn't need an other than why is it so bad to be one? To have Coldhands lead a life without an Other requires explanation. To have Coldhands attached to an Other requires none because explanation has already been presented.
People who believe that a Wight can function on it's own and have sentient thought patterns and emotions are the ones making an assumption because the text never says that a Wight can do this, only that wights do the bidding of Others. This is what makes my conclusion a logical deduction.
Amber wrote: "Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldhands, no. But it's been made clear that Wights are controlled by..."
Actually, assuming the opposite is just as academic at this point, since nothing is known about Coldhands beyond the fact that he's been helpful to the main characters, unlike other Wights who show no empathy or awareness beyond the desire to kill warmblooded people. But neither I, or anyone else to my knowledge, is arguing that Coldhands has free will, so I don't see why you're bringing it up.
In the end, only you are making assumptions at this point. Namely that: A) Coldhands has a handler because he's a Wight, B) that all Wights are controlled by Others since they seem to serve their ultimate purpose (i.e. killing warmblooded beings), and C) that the fact that he's not a mindless killing machine proves that the Other controlling him is itself not intent on killing.
But if accept that this is just inference and speculation, I would argue that it is more likely that Coldhands does have free will since he does not share the other Wights inclinations and has shown himself capable of communicating with Bran, Hodor and the Reeds and guiding them to the Children of the Forest. That seems like a far more likely explanation than the existence of a friendly Other who wants to help them find the Three Eyed Crow.
But as I'm sure I've said before, the data at this point supports no conclusions, which is why I think we shouldn't be making assumptions and claiming that they are logical deductions. All we have at this point are theories and guesses based on what little we do know, which isn't much.
That is fair Matthew. Actually, I'm just going over some Coldhand sections right now trying to see if I could provide any textual back up. I'm actually not even sure Coldhands is a wight now.
You know it says his eyes aren't even blue?
Never remembered/noticed that before. Pretty interesting and fairly positive that is requirement of a wight thrall.
So there, you have it. LOL.
Ha! Yeah, I need to go over that section now too. All I really remember was them saying that his hands were all bruised-looking and this was an indication of blood collecting in there. And I'm pretty sure he talked too, right? Doesn't sound Wightish. No, not Wightish at all...
Yes, he definitely talks.And he's definitely dead as referenced by CoTF.
But other than being dead, not a lot of other wight-like qualities really after reviewing his scenes.
Kenneth wrote: "The Others are an opposing force. But don't characters also say "ice preserves"/"fire destroys"? Somehow everyone seems to think that the fire/dragons/Targs are the good guys (if there is even a "g..."Maybe the others have a perfectly good reason for spreading an eternal winter and wiping out all humans.Who knows? But from the POV of a human they are definitely evil.
What the POV of the Nights King?He didn't seem to have an issue with them.
But I guess he could be evil as well in all technicality.
Kenneth wrote: "Matthew, consider that any one of the Iron Throne contenders considers the others mortal enemies and destroys their armies on sight, or attempts to. Consider the 'doom' in Essos. Consider that GRRM..."That's what I'm wondering about where Jon's story is going. Are we going to learn about wights via a POV character? I do indeed think GRRM has something more interesting in store for us than just Westeros vs. Winter's Children.
Matthew wrote: "Amber wrote: "Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldhands, no. But it's been made clear that Wights are..."
Didn't he also lead them into a trap of wights hidden under the snow?
Firstname wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Amber wrote: "Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldhands, no. But it's been made clear..."
Well, they were attacked once they reached the cave, but it's not quite indicated that this was a waiting trap as much as them becoming exposed before they arrived at their destination. And of course, the Children saved them from this since the cave itself is warded against Whitewalkers and Wights. Coldhands couldn't go in because of it, but he was still accompanying him at this point.
Matthew wrote: "Firstname wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Amber wrote: "Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldhands, no. But it..."
He also seemingly couldn't get through the Wall. IMO it's still up in the air how all these things are connected. We only know what the POV characters know, and re: the wights and the Others, they don't know much. The most reliable voice has been the old woman (Hodor's mother?) at Winterfell.
Old Nan - I think she's actually Hodor's Grandmother, but yah, she's had the most to offer up so far.I think Sam might give us a little.
And maybe it's sick, but I kinda like the idea of Jon Snow being a Wight/Other POV character. LOL!!
Amber wrote: "Old Nan - I think she's actually Hodor's Grandmother, but yah, she's had the most to offer up so far.I think Sam might give us a little.
And maybe it's sick, but I kinda like the idea of Jon Sno..."
I hear you. I also hope GRRM is not reading any of the fanmail so we don't end up with a last season of Lost situation.
My question is this: if the Others have the wights as their undead servants, who does the Fire Lord have to serve him (other than his mortal priest and priestesses)?
Jack wrote: "My question is this: if the Others have the wights as their undead servants, who does the Fire Lord have to serve him (other than his mortal priest and priestesses)?"Well, there's also the dragons. Not to mention their history of mortal servants, like Azor Ahai, and of course Danaerys (Ahai reborn).
Firstname wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Firstname wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Amber wrote: "Coldhands purpose and agenda, and whether or not he's being controlled at all have not been made clear.In direct relation to Coldha..."
I guess we all have to wait for book six... Damn Martin! I would ask him when its coming, but apparently whenever someone asks that, he kills off another Stark!
Yes, of course. The dragons. I hadn't forgotten them. But they seem to have minds of their own (as much as they have minds; it's unclear how intelligent they are) whereas the wights are basically automatons -- all except for Coldhands. But then again I'm sure the various gods (or whatever they are) work in different ways; the ways of the one do not necessarily reflect those of the other.
You seem to have also forgotten the Lord of Light reanimates corpses as well.Lady Stoneheart and Beric Dondarion are a bit more sentient but ultimately appear to be thralls as well. For instant Cat loose almost all compassion and Beric wages his own war for the small folk in sense.
Hard to say if they conduct themselves completely of their own volition. I don't think there is text for it either way.
True! I HAD forgotten about that. So how do Cat and Danaerys relate to each other? I'd thought Beric might be Ahai reborn, what with the sword, and now that Cat is its inheritor (she still has it, doesn't she? I can't recall) that would make HER the new Ahai . . . but it makes more sense for it to be Danaerys, doesn't it -- the Mother of Dragons? Could there be TWO Ahais? Are they opponents or do they compliment each other? I suppose we'll have to wait to find out, but I'd be interested in others' thoughts.
It's not confirmed that Azor Ahai and The Prince that Was Promised are one and the sameIt is completely possible that their is an Azor Ahai and a seperate Prince that Was Promised.
That is all I can offer on the subject really.
Amber wrote: "It's not confirmed that Azor Ahai and The Prince that Was Promised are one and the sameIt is completely possible that their is an Azor Ahai and a seperate Prince that Was Promised.
That is all I..."
Yes, the identity of Ahai reborn has yet to be confirmed. But by the last account, at least the one offered by Maester Aemon before he died, it was definitely Daenerys. However, that's by no means the last word on the subject. But now that we're up to five books and things are finally coming together with Daenerys as the presumed focal point, I choose to believe it because I can't stand any more twists ;)
Matthew wrote: "Damn Martin! I would ask him when its coming, but apparently whenever someone asks that, he kills off another Stark! "I know, it's not fair!
Jack wrote: "My question is this: if the Others have the wights as their undead servants, who does the Fire Lord have to serve him (other than his mortal priest and priestesses)?"Interesting question, since there seems to be no manifestation of same that isn't a fake. I'm not even sure the demon Melisandre birthed was of the fire lord, or something darker.
Amber wrote: "That is fair Matthew. Actually, I'm just going over some Coldhand sections right now trying to see if I could provide any textual back up. I'm actually not even sure Coldhands is a wight now.
Y..."
I always thought Coldhands was an Other and not a wight.
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