The Great Gatsby
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If Nick is not rich, why is he accepted in Daisy's inner circle
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My family have been prominent, well-to-do people in this Middle Western city for three generations. The Carraways are something of a clan, and we have a tradition that we're descended from the Dukes of Buccleuch, but the actual founder of my line was my grandfather's brother, who came here in f ifty-one, sent a substitute to the Civil War, and started the wholesale hardware business that my father carries on to-day.I never saw this great-uncle, but I'm supposed to look like him-with special reference to the rather hard-boiled painting that hangs in father's office I graduated from New Haven in 1915, just a quarter of a century after my father, and a little later I participated in that delayed Teutonic migration known as the Great War. I enjoyed the counter-raid so thoroughly that I came back restless. Instead of being the warm centre of the world, the Middle West now seemed like the ragged edge of the universe-so I decided to go East and learn the bond business. Everybody I knew was in the bond business, so I supposed it could support one more single man. All my aunts and uncles talked it over as if they were choosing a prep school for me, and finally said, "Why-ye-es," with very grave, hesitant faces. Father agreed to finance me for a year, and after various delays I came East, permanently, I thought, in the spring of twenty-two.
Daisy might still feel a part of herself that doesn't belong in Tom's world. I don't think she means it in a kind way towards Tom, but she might feel safer retreating in his presence at those times. She isn't the only one from that background, can praise her marrying up whenever she regrets it because Tom reminds her where she came from.
Nick went to school with Tom and is Daisy's cousin. Although he isn't rich, he does have money so that helps him here. I also think Daisy enjoys having Nick around, I think he reminds her of the "good" in the world which is why she wants him around so much. This is probably the reason he is accepted into their social circle.
I also get the impression that Nick is tight-lipped and poker-faced. He writes of his reactions to those he met that summer but never lets them on what he is thinking.
I believe that is has a lot to do with the family tie they have. I think Nick represents this innocence, the voice of understanding, and he seems to be the common ground, and it seems that he has traits that all the others around him posses, and I think that is why is accepted into the circle.
Nick is accepted by Daisy because he is her cousin and because Jay Gatsby uses Nicks home as a place to met Daisy after many years apart. Also Jay and Nick are good friends.
I think Nick is accepted because he's Daisy's cousin and because he's got an innocence about him that makes him "trainable". The rich in the story dragged him all around and he followed like a little puppy. I think also he made them feel good about themselves while he was in their presence because he didn't seem to judge them.
Monica wrote: "Would people who are middle class like Nick usually be accepted into the upper class?"The rich routinely accept the middle class into their social sphere. It would be a lonely world out there if they didn't.
It's a question of degree, though. Socializing is one thing, marriage and serious dating is something else.
Monty J wrote: "Monica wrote: "Would people who are middle class like Nick usually be accepted into the upper class?"The rich routinely accept the middle class into their social sphere. It would be a lonely worl..."
what you say is correct, but Nick wasnt really middleclass as much as undeveloped rich. his family was rich and he would probably become so in a few years
I think that there are some good points made here. Daisy accepted him ofcourse because Nick was her cousin, Gatsby used him for his connection to Daisy and grew to care about him, which was easy because Nick did not judge him, and was in awe of him. The rich group also loved to show off, and Nick was a perfect hanger-on. I think if the story had moved on, Nick would have had time to reject all of them. Gatsby's death helped him do that at the end.
Geoffrey wrote: "And yet at the end of the novel, it`s so very important for Tom to gain Nick`s friendship. No, Nick and Jay are their playthings for the summer, and yes, temporarily they are part of that segment o..."It's a book, a story-events happened the way the author wanted them to, even if you don't like it, and Tom never wanted Nick as a friend at the end.
Karen,you`ve got to read the novel again. Tom insists that Nick shake his hand so he wants his approval and to remain on good terms. Actually there is nothing stated of implied in the book that suggests that Tom no longer wishes to be friends, but your inference and mine also is that Tom no longer wishes to hobnob with Tom. But you are erroneous in stating that he no longer wishes to be friends-it`s just that he no longer wishes to hobnob with Nick. There`s too much pain associated with his continued consorting with Jay`s best friend.It hasn`t anything to do with whether I like it or not. It`s my Reading of the story and yours as well. You need to sharpen your perceptions.
AnthonyYes, exactly. Nick is future wealthy. He`s a Wall Street profesional working in the bond market. These guys after 10 years are anywhere from moderately well to do if they are average, or incredibly wealthy if they work the angles. So, Nick is upwardly mobile and would be a better suited match to his cousin in terms of social acceptance than Jay, the imposter and criminal.
AnthonyI agreed with you up to a point. I don`t believe Nick`s family was rich, but only prominent. He never says that his family was wealthy. They are comfortably middle class, on the 9 point socio-economic scale, I surmise they would be at point 6, ie. upper middle class, usually associated with the business, management or profesional classes who are well off but still have to earn a living. Not until level 7, usually nouveau riche, do you get the kind of wealth that you can retire at the age of 30.
Geoffrey wrote: "Karen,you`ve got to read the novel again. Tom insists that Nick shake his hand so he wants his approval and to remain on good terms. Actually there is nothing stated of implied in the book that sug..."Oh my perceptions are quite sharp enough thank you. Speak for yourself. Tom does not want to be friends, I don't think, he wants Nick to be sympathetic with him, he wants him on his side- Nick knows what happened- guilt, on Toms part, is not the same as friendship. Have a nice day.
If it`s not friendship, then I don`t know what is and neither do you Karen. One does not have to party or hobnob with someone to be their friend. Many of us have not seen many of our friends for years and guess what they remain friends forever. Many of us move, change jobs, go to another part of the city, etc. and the people we care about still remain friends. Yes, tom "wants him on his side" as you put it because he values his approval. If he did not want to be friends it would not have mattered. Whether they would continue to enjoy each other`s company is another matter. As I said in my previous posting, there were too many issues that had developed and he did not want as you yourself explain, "Nick knows what happened-guilt, on Toms part......"Perhaps you are very young Karen and have all the friends that you had about you since first grade. That is a blessed situation. But there will come a time in your life when some of your friends will move away, get married and you didn`t or vice versa and there will be a separation of ways. Those people will remain friends if they have depth and if you do too.
Geoffrey wrote: "If it`s not friendship, then I don`t know what is and neither do you Karen. One does not have to party or hobnob with someone to be their friend. Many of us have not seen many of our friends for ye..."I'm 56 years old and your above statement makes you seem pompous. This is the last time I will respond to you or any of your reviews.
Karen wrote: "Geoffrey wrote: "If it`s not friendship, then I don`t know what is and neither do you Karen. One does not have to party or hobnob with someone to be their friend. Many of us have not seen many of o..."Geoffrey is notorious for starting pissing battles. You are wise not to take the bait.
Geoffrey, you make some good points now and then, but your insults nullify their worth. Apply some sandpaper to those rough edges.
No so, Monty. she had it coming.And if you don´t like my comments and think they´re off then you should take exception to them and address them.
I find that a number of people here on the message thread walk on broken eggshells. A pissing battle livens things up. I´m up for the adrenalin rush. I am not interested in "they come and go and talk of Michaelangelo. Should I eat a peach....Do I dare?"
Yes,I am a pissing polemicist
Geoffery, I have to second Monty's point. I appreciate your insight and often find your points enlightening. I do not find your bullying, nor your "my point of view is the only way" attitude helpful.
It's been a long time for me, too, but my impression was never that Nick was middle class but rather a gentleman "in temporarily embarrassed circumstances." He was a member of Daisy's family, as well as a prep schoolmate of Tom's, which would make him one of "their set" for life. Money did not equal class standing, which I think is the point of the book. But, of course, I could be misremembering.
Christina wrote: "It's been a long time for me, too, but my impression was never that Nick was middle class but rather a gentleman "in temporarily embarrassed circumstances." He was a member of Daisy's family, as w..."i think you have it about right. moneyed class did equal class standing, as in, you had to come from a certain social strata, and you had to be doing reasonably well, but you did not have to be at the top of your game to belong, as long as you didnt come from the "wrong" kind of family or be completely destitute...
Good points, and I don't think you are mis-remembering- Nick was a gentleman and even though not rich yet, knew how to behave around the rich-I do think he was also naive though, until the end of the book where it gets really interesting. Fitzgerald was a master of social commentary, and I can't wait to read it again this summer at the beach- group read anyone?
Christina wrote: "Money did not equal class standing, which I think is the point of the book."My thoughts exactly.
No way guys, both Anthony and Monty, but it was so glaringly obvious that Nick and Tom parted as friends that I had to take Karen to task. No, the moon is not made of greencheese and if someone insists that it is, I will take them to task in the rudest possible way.A small moot point. Karen wrote that I was being pompous. That was not my take at all. I was being patronising.
" A wafer of a moon was shining over Gatsby's house, making the night fine as before, and surviving the laughter and the sound of his still glowing garden"
so it´s a wafer. goes well with gin and tonic.
Or moon shine if you pay attention to FSF
When reading Gatsby or any FSF work, I think it's important to keep in mind that he's talking about society and events as they were nearly a century ago, 91 yrs to be precise. Some attitudes and behaviors remain the same; some have changed or softened. Class emphasis then was on "good breeding." Even today, I occasionally encounter some wizened old dowager deeply prejudiced against those less "well-bred." The whole point of the drunken crisis scene in the hotel is that Gatsby is deliberately provoked into revealing his lowly origins through an angry outburst. "Ill-breeding will out." Once outed, he is irrevocably shut out.
When trouble comes, the Brahmin close ranks. Unlike Gatsby, whose ostracism is involuntary, Nick, I think, chooses which side of the wall he wishes to spend the rest of his life: the outside.
Good insight Christina-and it makes sense the moonshine! Lol. As drunk as Fitzgerald got, it did not seem to affect his gorgeous writing much of the time.
He chooses to be on the outside as it is he that rejects them. Their misconduct is so atrocious that he refuses to continue their company.It had been his intent to move up the social ladder by becoming a Wall St. Player, but he ends up with a view of the class he will move into by association with his cousin who is actually three levels above him on the 9 point socio-economic scale. Had he stayed within the upwardly mobile professional business class, he would have hobnobbed with those with sturdier character, but instead skipped too many levels to the worthless superwealthy narcissists.
And like FitzGerald himself, perhaps, he ascribes the ethical hole he has fallen into to being in the "East", away from the more naive and goodhearted people of the Midwest.
What Nick should simply have done when meeting Tom for the last time was to drop his pants and "moon him". SF would have had fun drawing parallels to the elevator scene. Just kidding. Had to write that one.
Christina wrote: "When reading Gatsby or any FSF work, I think it's important to keep in mind that he's talking about society and events as they were nearly a century ago, 91 yrs to be precise. Some attitudes and be..."My thoughts exactly! But better written..."Brahmin"... exactly.
Nick is a combination of many things, young, charming and he can hold his own surrounded by any man of any means. He's adaptable plus imagine its easy for him to blend into the background and those more accepting of his blending.
True Taryn.He blends! I can't wait to read this again after participating in this discussion- many insightful people on this goodreads, I like it.
He’s a Princeton graduate, working on Wall Street and Daisy’s cousin so he, at least, comes from money
Yale graduate.Not Princeton.
Plus he doesn`t reveal his true thoughts or JUDGMENTS.
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and a wealthy family