UK Amazon Kindle Forum discussion
Agony Aunt
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Has your plot thickened?
I'm gonna link this in the morning thread as well.In the meantime have a huge hug
(((((((((((((((((Hug)))))))))))
Lynda wrote: "Mine has. It's now that thick I can't move. I've literally stopped writing.I've always had trouble plotting my novels - I get stuck somewhere between a third and half the way through. Up until no..."
Have you tried Larry Brooks Story Physics approach:
Story Physics: Harnessing the Underlying Forces of Storytelling, I'm using it now to plan a couple of novels and finding it very useful.
He also has a blog that illustrates some of his ideas: http://storyfix.com/
I try to stick to using just my main plot thread until I've gotten to the end of the story. I keep a chapter summary as I go along,so I know at a glance what's going off in each chapter. Any ideas for sub plots that crop up as I write, I note down else where. I then go to a second draft where I weave the subplots in. I find it easier at this stage, because the overall plot is clear in my mind. I then go through a third time after putting the work aside for a while.I try and break it down as constructing a building:
First draft is foundation and walls.
Second draft is internal construction.
Third draft is decoration and embellishment.
The original plot usually alters, as I add in subplots.
Whether it makes my books any good or not is for others to decide, but this method works for me, and helps me to not get bogged down.
I think any guide book or method can only be a starting point though, and you have to find what works for you.
Hope you get it sorted. :~)
I'm not a writer Lynda so haven't suffered this. But I know if I'm stuck with something - a design, a painting or a planting scheme - I find it helps to have a break. A complete break, for a decent length of time I mean, not just a coffee break! A day or two, go out for a really good walk, get some fresh air at the coast. Wlak round a museum, an art gallery, buy yourself a nice cake. It'll come back, don't worry!
Thanks, David and David.David S, I like your analogy and it might just work for me.
I think my problem is threefold.
Plotting - I loosely plot, which is why I run into trouble.
Impatience - I'll have that lose outline, and start the actual writing before I've nailed down every plot point, chapter and scene. This leads to:
Procrastination - Just how many games of Free Cell/Candy Crush Saga/Insert favourite online game here, can you play in a day instead of getting your head round the plot? And the more days I go without writing (waiting for inspiration to hit me), the less I feel like going back to it.
For me, I usually get most of the way through the book then have a break - usually for a couple of months - and get on with other craft stuff and ideas. Bit by bit, pieces of plot and subplot come to mind - it's rather an organic process but it works for me. I do need to live with a story for a while and let it simmer in the background. It's surprising what does pop up - it did today, a quite unexpected twist, which I'm now ready to go back in and use. I've also thought about throwing in the towel when things aren't working out or there's too much other stuff going on in life, but ultimately it's like any art form. If it is something you enjoy doing (at times) then why stop? Sounds like you just need a break, Lynda. Recharge the batteries. Let your subconscious do the work for you.
Whenever I hit a snag, I sit for a while and try to look at the situation from a few different viewpoints--the protagonist, the villain's, and any other important characters. Typically there's a problem the protagonist is trying to solve, so you have to ask them, what are you going to do now? And then if you ask the villain how they're going to stop them, you may find your next step. If that doesn't work, my writing teacher used to say "Throw in another obstacle." Pretty much anything to make your protagonist's life miserable.
I only plot loosely too, Lynda. But, I never start writing until I have a fixed idea of the ending. It may alter as you get close, but at least you set off with a destination in mind. You can then meander as much as you like on the way.
I'm a bit like Judy in looking at things from all points of view.I will just go for a walk, a couple of hours,half a day, whatever and just try and see the problem from all sides and it tends to work :-)
Hmm, none of my stories have really been big on plots to be honest.I don't have a plan as such, just a set of ideas and plot-points in my head that I somehow join up into something meaningful.
Take a break from it. It sounds like the pressure is clogging up and preventing you from thinking about it.
I do plot quite carefully (stop sniggering patti) but only in loose 'waypoints' for the story, so I know where it is going to go, but then I leave it to spontaneity to help me get the characters between the 'waypoints'.If you are stuck, I ALWAYS advise people - and I follow my own advice- go and write some flash fiction, really short stories. Make yourself write one short, say 500 word, story a day for a week. Disable Candy crush and the like, and you'll find your imagination starts to work again and you can go back to your blocked stories and finish them.
DO NOT STOP! Write something else. Write other scenes, start other projects. Come back to it in a while. A change is as good as a rest. A sex change is a different thing altogether. Find something that excites you and indulge that for a while.We don't want to lose you.
Well, all right, we'll lose you as long as we find you again. Oh, look - there you are.
Deja vu!Sorry that you're still having trouble. It really seems that you're trying too hard to make something specific happen right now.
Maybe it's time to step away from the current dilemma. Perhaps you could try related tasks such as describing a character, writing sections of dialogue or some other activity related to your book. It really sounds like it's the wrong time for you to be tackling this plot issue.
Why don't you spoilt yourself for a day or two. Perhaps then you'll wake up one morning with your problem resolved.
Thanks everyone. Much to mull over there, and very grateful for the support.Rosen, not quite deja vu. It's taken several days to find the root cause of my malaise. Before I posted here, I didn't want to write, felt like quitting, and didn't know why.
Now I do, and I'm convinced that (like a good book!) it's plot driven. If I could work out a system of plotting my stories that works for me, I could be far more productive instead of putting a book out every 6 months or so. And you're only as good as your last book, right?
Lynda, you should consider joining in on Skype with us some Wednesday.Might help to talk it out and we'd be more than happy to be sounding boards.
Xxx
Lynda, one book every 6 months IS being productive. And beware of systems, anything that makes your writing process too mechanical will only hurt y9u in the long run.Last weekend at the Romance writers thing, I was bored alone and a little drunk, and that gave me two decent plot outlines which I will want next year. Don't force your books. Force other writing stuff that doesn't matter then the books will just flow easily
I just leave the story alone and forget about it while I wait for my subconscious to supply the answer. It doesn't work straight away, but it's never failed yet. I find that it's like a word in a crossword puzzle, or something that you can't remember. If you stop thinking about it so much, the answer eventually reveals itself, because although you're not thinking about it, your subconscious is still beavering away behind the scenes.
Will wrote: "Lynda, one book every 6 months IS being productive. And beware of systems, anything that makes your writing process too mechanical will only hurt y9u in the long run.Last weekend at the Romance ..."
One book every six months makes the rest of us look bad.
Darren wrote: "Will wrote: "Lynda, one book every 6 months IS being productive. And beware of systems, anything that makes your writing process too mechanical will only hurt y9u in the long run.Last weekend at..."
Is this where i'm allowed a quick Mwahahahahahahah?
Will wrote: "Lynda, one book every 6 months IS being productive. And beware of systems, anything that makes your writing process too mechanical will only hurt y9u in the long run. ..."A book every six months is aspirational for some people, if you're managing it, don't knock it.
I know that one of my books I got bogged down in, walked away from and came back to six months later with a far better idea of how it should go.
I suppose I'm lucky because I do do other writing stuff and actually look forward to getting back to the books at times :-) Haven't even looked at the current one for at least a fortnight :-(
Will wrote: "Last weekend at the Romance writers thing, I was bored alone and a little drunk, and that gave me two decent plot outlines which I will want next year. Don't force your books. Force other writing stuff that doesn't matter then the books will just flow easily ..."Surely not, bored at a Romance convention, who'd have believed it :-)
Thanks again, peeps.Having scoured the area for virgins, I sacrificed a couple of goats last night, which seems to have helped. Have written nearly 600 words this morning and hope to do the same this afternoon.
Of course, once you have yourself a nice tight well-structured outline - ideally multi-coloured and with many, many cross-connecting links, you can then, with a clear conscience, ignore it completely.I usually end up with characters who regard an outline as a challenge and delight in doing their best to bugger it up for me.
That, Darren, is how I have 25% of the next book written before I've completed this one...I was brutal with the cut & paste removal of sections when I was in serious danger of over running.
Lynda wrote: "Thanks again, peeps.Having scoured the area for virgins, I sacrificed a couple of goats last night, which seems to have helped. Have written nearly 600 words this morning and hope to do the same ..."
Whoopie-doo! Well done for sticking with it. :)
Darren wrote: "One book every six months makes the rest of us look bad...."I heartily concur... it makes me look particularly bad...
Now she's made us all feel guilty that we cannot match her work rate :-)
Jim, you have a higher work rate than any of us!
I've been writing the latest for 8 months now (still on 1st draft). Stick at it Lynda.
Why not write down the problem? Sometimes the process of explaining the dilemma will solve it. If not, others might.
Don't feel guilty, Jim. I'm not writing War and Peace or some monstrous fantasy epic. These are only 60K fairly formulaic whodunits, character and plot (ha!) driven for the most part. I have all day to write, being in ill-health and virtually house-bound, and should be able to manage at least 1K a day. Ergo, it shouldn't take me much more than 2 months to write one, and 2 more to edit, send to my pro editor, and do all the other paraphernalia needed before I publish. At least I could if I could nail the plotting down.
So, now, I think that's pretty much done what Rosen suggested. (I hope and thanks for the good idea Rosen).
Simples :)
:(
I actually meant jotting down your plot tangle, but if explaining another part of the problem has helped, that's great.
Lynda wrote: "Don't feel guilty, Jim. I'm not writing War and Peace or some monstrous fantasy epic. These are only 60K fairly formulaic whodunits, character and plot (ha!) driven for the most part. I have all ..."
Hey,I'm only aiming at 70K, fantasy or SF, so I'm not aiming for major literary prizes :-)
Lynda wrote: "Don't feel guilty, Jim. I'm not writing War and Peace or some monstrous fantasy epic. These are only 60K fairly formulaic whodunits, character and plot (ha!) driven for the most part. I have all ..."
What is wrong with stuff that is just entertaining (and the word is that your stuff is entertaining)? The UNDEAD books come in at approx 70k and have no pretensions beyond being a bit of disposable fun. I'm all for that.
Oh, you mean you don't mind if I delete them, Darren?
Oh, don't do that, Patti. You'd miss them when you came to re-read them. Darren - that's really the whole point. If I don't find them fun to write, how can I expect a reader to find it fun to read. I write light, frothy entertainment. Nothing more - and I make no apologies for it. there's room for everything in this big ol' crazy publishing world of ours.
Now at 1193 words and finished for today. I don't suppose for a moment that I've solved my plotting probs fully, yet, but at least I'm writing again.
Thanks to all you wonderful people for suggestions and support. Tis muchly appreciated.
I remember working with a freelance journalist who was vastly experienced. She always reminded me that we were there to decorate the paper they wrapped fish and chips in :-)Let others worry about whether it's art or not, if it's fun to read and fun to write, then I'm happy with that
I wish I could produce 2 books a year! Then again, my books are 100k+ epic fantasies, so at 1 book a year I guess I'm not doing too badly.
Well 2x60K isn't that far adrift from 1x100K :-)
Jim wrote: "I remember working with a freelance journalist who was vastly experienced. She always reminded me that we were there to decorate the paper they wrapped fish and chips in :-)Let others worry about ..."
I always think of myself as a sort of artist.
The plot for my first book hardly deviated at all from the outline that I created beforehand, but it was only just over 70k words so I guess that's not that unusual.Book two however completely changed as I was writing it, and a lot of the plot points that I intended for it became delayed for a future book as my imagination went a bit haywire. If anything the story slowed down quite significantly from the original events planned, but I'm still pleased with the direction it took the characters and the world they inhabit.
It also means that the plot outline for book three is completely mussed up!
Same for me, Andy, and why I'm finding book 3 hard to write.
Lynda wrote: "So, how do you do it? Do you have a foolproof (it would have to be in my case)method. A favourite method? Have you cobbled something together yourself after much trial and error?Please share - and help me find a way out of these doldrums, before I throw in the towel completely. "
I do not have a concise system for writing, I tend to have the initial idea followed by a spell writing out a brief summary. I do not attempt to cover everything with the summary, it is an exercise to see if I can develop the original idea.
If the summary seems okay then I start to think seriously about it as a book, which means having a beginning, a middle and an ending. This is where I start to develop the plot. Again this is an exercise and I only progress further if appears to succeed.
With this ‘skeleton plot’ I then sit down and write the first draft. The plot, such as it is, works as a guide and I do not apply it too rigidly. This is because things seem to change as I develop characters and new ideas, not to mention that new requirements can and usually do emerge.
When I get to the second draft the plot is usually well established as the backbone of the story but I like it to remain flexible, I have ideas very late in the day that have opened up new dimensions in my story that could not be included by too rigid an adherence to ‘the plot’.
Of course it all comes down to your own style of writing, there are very few absolutes if you have a good story to tell.
Hi Lynda, I'm not sure how helpful this is going to be because, if I were famous for anything, it would be NOT planning things out too much beforehand. I like to start a book with a basic idea of what the story is going to be centred on, themes such as loyalty or betrayal. I like to have one big scene that the story begins from (In Broken City it was Dec's disappearance, in The Vow Evoric's death, in Severance Astra's abduction from her homeland, etc.) that changes the course of everyone’s lives.
I like to know how everyone is connected; how they feel about each other and the situation they're in. And I like to know how the book will end.
Then I let the characters show me how to get to those plot points. For me that's part of the ride, the experience, I'm excited finding out how things are going to come together. For me having a flexible area in which to construct the story helps me to write with more fluidity.
Ooo! that sounded poncy!!! ;-P
Thanks Peter, that's very helpful.Hi. D.D., hope you get your new 'puter soon.
One problem is that I'm trying to write to a formula. It's the classic 12 chapter crime novel shown here: http://ticket2write.tripod.com/mysplo...
And I'm trying to write quickly - a 60K word novel should take me approx. 1-2 months to write. If I don't know where I'm going, because I haven't plotted my scenes out in advance, then the tendency is to go all over the shop, throwing in romantic interests and all sorts of other non-crime stuff. I end up with an epic that then takes forever to edit.
Up until now I've plotted loosely, and got lost among the flowerbeds on the way. Or I plot the first few chapters, get all excited and start writing straightaway until I hit the brick wall that is the unplotted Chapter 4.
I'm slowly getting a system that I think will work for me, so thank you for all the suggestions.
That's good to hear, Linda. I think that everyone has a stlye that works for them. A lot of my writer friends look at my way of writing and scream in horror!!! ;-PI can kinda see where they're coming from!!!
Lynda, I can see how a stricter plot would work within the parameters that you describe for the crime novel, clearly more self-discipline is required here!I would suggest setting the themes of your book as early as possible, define the main characters but not too deeply, and make a list of the main events that you think should be in the story, a murder, a robbery, a chase, etc., then try to insert them loosely into the plot to form a structure.
Then if you have managed to restrain yourself, start writing the first draft!
Only a suggestion, as so many have said, we are all different and have to find our own way of working.
Lynda wrote: "Thanks Peter, that's very helpful.Hi. D.D., hope you get your new 'puter soon.
One problem is that I'm trying to write to a formula. It's the classic 12 chapter crime novel shown here: http://ti..."
I love the final line of the plotting guide: establish that justice has been served to the satisfaction of all (except the villain)
brilliant!
I've always had trouble plotting my novels - I get stuck somewhere between a third and half the way through. Up until now, I've slogged my way through. Now I'm stuck - not just on one WIP but on two - and I'm getting so depressed about it, I can't write at all, freeze whenever I open my writing software, and tell myself I'm crap and should quit.
I've read enumerable books, articles, and blog posts about how to plot a novel, but none of them seem to work for me. So, how do you do it? Do you have a foolproof (it would have to be in my case)method. A favourite method? Have you cobbled something together yourself after much trial and error?
Please share - and help me find a way out of these doldrums, before I throw in the towel completely.