Foucault's Pendulum discussion
Foucault's Pendulum
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Discussion thread 1: Foucault's Pendulum Chapters 1 to end of chapter 6
Oh FP you are such a welcome friend. We are back from my parents. The highlight was likely my time on the treadmill. This came after my brother was telling me about reincarnation. My brother did suggest Forbidden archeology : the hidden history of the human race. He is batshit crazy: I reopened the Eco to the scene where Belbo is classifying humans as cretins, fools, morons and lunatics.Sweet Jesus, let the holidays be over.
Traveller wrote: "I had always thought 'Sofia' stood for 'wisdom'"And she does! She is the patron saint of wisdom, and iirc (my Greek is a trifle rusty – i.e., non-existent) "sofia" literally means "wisdom". Which doesn't change what Dolors, said, 'coz if this book was only working on single levels, we wouldn't be reading it!
One of the many things you learn from playing computer games (specifically Civilization): the history and (in this case) etymology of world wonders such as Hagia Sophia, which is Greek for "Holy Wisdom". I hadn't made the association at the time I was reading, but indeed, it's probably not as simple as it looks. Is anything, in this novel?Belbo's classification rant is thus far my favourite part of the book, by the way. It is sheer elegance in its simplicity, as he has very good reasons to dismiss whole classes of people! :)
I'm starting to think I should have included the next thread's first few chapters with this one: I've been posting about the cretins and the fools there under the spoiler tags. :)What the heck, let me post it here too, since it's being mentioned, under its little spoiler tags:
More pranks and riffery takes place with the cretins and the fools in chapter 10. (view spoiler)
I read the first section. I seemed to miss a lot of what you guys are noticing. The passage that stuck with me was the File called Abu. It had some beautiful ideas about how computers change us when we use them. *Oops, if I just backspace, it's like what I just wrote didn't ever exist. Oh, you want to know what I know? You need a password. But I don't have to give you the password.*
I really love how he was seeing right at the beginning of the personal computer revolution how the computers would change us. This phenomenon of computers changing us is one of the primary topics my husband and I have devoted our lives and careers to, so it was great to see it here. I hope there is more to come.
I think this book is so richly referential that 100 people could read it together and each one will notice different things about it; which makes it great to read it in a group.Michelle, I don't know if you do/have done PC gaming where one can save your game at any interval that you wish; but being able to this has often made me wish that I could do this in real life; that I could erase what I just did and go back to a previous 'saved game' like one can do when you make a mistake in your game... :P
Causabon and Belbo's saving and then erasing and retrieving even 'erased' files made me think of this.
Like I mentioned earlier, I also love how Eco does a play on ideas regarding digital/human memory and references Proust in the process.
Trav,Yes, I meant it when I said I have devoted my career to this idea of computers changing us. We actually do something like what you are saying. We do it in our family and teach all our clients to do it. We call it the "Click Protocol" and tell people you can treat life like you have all the features on your DVR. You can Pause, Rewind, Replay. So, if my hubby and I are starting to get into an argument, for instance, either person can say, "Pause, Rewind back to when I walked into the room."
And all the ways video games mirror what and who we are and what potential we have is a great example of how computers are changing us. Jane McGonigal wrote a decent book on the topic, Reality is Broken. But I especially liked Daemon and Freedom by Daniel Suarez as great reads and great "video games mesh with life" books. Way better than Ready Player One or McGonigal's book.
I found these recent comments fascinating, I remain at a loss to see how the technologcal advances in the PC affects literature but then again, it has already been a long day.
Michele, I'm having difficulty envisioning what your career might be, given what you've said. Out of curiosity, would you mind expounding on what it is and how it relates to the topic at hand?
I would guess something to do with psychology, perhaps? Sounds interesting.
J., my husband and I worked in the software industry and realized that the problems were human. Getting the humans to work together was THE problem in making great software. This was heresy back in the day, mid 90s. So we started working on the human problems on software teams. Because we were both software designers and programmers, we came at the problem, at least partly, from that viewpoint. (Trav, we were both avid students of psychology also, so, yes, what we do is also psychology). So, the main work we began doing was running experiments on teams. We gave them a pretend project with pretend deadlines, bosses, etc. Then we watched what innovations worked, which didn't, etc. Then (being programmers), we began programming (encoding) the behaviors on teams which worked. Each time a new team arrived, we'd give them the latest, greatest set of code, which we called "protocols", for making great software. A protocol for making team decisions. A protocol for handling emotions. A protocol for criticizing the work of others, etc. I just felt a connection to Eco because he so clearly saw the power of the PC so early on. We have seen this over and over in our work. You have to be "rational" to program. You have to be able to order your thoughts and cope with getting exactly the results your code produces. It is this skill that is allowing all sorts of things to change in the world. When you program, it changes you. The "hacker" culture, ala Richard Stallman, is just one great example of this.
Maybe I am projecting quite a bit of my dreams onto Eco, but I have a feeling he saw the potential, at least partly, that I see.
The potential I see is that computers force us to be rational(to not be morons-reading ahead) in order to get the results we want from them. It is this rationality that has the potential to allow us to *behave* more rationally as a culture or as the human race.
I hope that helps explain my weird self.
Well, now that is interesting, Michele! Thanks for explaining. You have indeed made it much clearer, and yes, I think it has changed our culture a lot.A small example is how we now use flow diagrams now for everything, (like project management, for instance) not just programming.
Thanks Trav. Yep, who knew everyone would be using flowcharts? That was an engineering tool originally, from what I remember.
Our world has changed in so many ways, actually, now with the digital age and globalization. And there's the dichotomy of that although it's an age of specialization, there's also a melding and crossover of disciplines taking place.Eco himself and his work is actually a good example, isn't it?
In his work we see a melding of history, linguistics, philosophy, literary criticism etc. among other things, and he has works published in the fields of semiotics, narratology, structuralism, linguistics, medieval studies and aestehtics among others.
Btw, have a look at this discipline and the bibliography shown there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computat...
Interesting, yes?
I think Sophia as the inscription indicates is understood in multiple ways - its syncretic, I can't explain more without discussing what happens in the rest of the book. There is a link between Sophia as divine wisdom and Sophia as demiurge in Gnostism (some discussion of her in that role in this radio discussion: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01s4rhz)but (view spoiler)
I thought it was very clever that Eco showed the code that was written to implement the decoding. That is recursive or at least a pun. I realized Eco did that long after I read it. I always like it when something like that has a slow burn in my unconscious.
I am not sure if this is directly connected to this discussion of Sophia but I thought it was interesting that at the end of chapter one, UE first combines Wisdom with Tradition as the 'ultimate symbol' and later (the last line of the chapter, actually), juxtaposes Wisdom with Science
Traveller wrote: "Oh! I still wanted to ask if anyone knows what "Metacyclosynchrotron " means, and while trying to find an answer on the internet, lookee what I found!http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sha......"
Exactly what I would have been looking for, if I had any idea it was there to find. Thank you, Traveller!
I guess the Sophia discussion will hold out until we know more, but for now, I find Ruth's observation about wisdom/tradition vs science interesting.Oh, and btw, I'm glad to see you made it to the discussion, Ruth! I hope your NanoWriMo went well.
I made it to 50,020 words, considered a win in NaNo land. Novel itself still has a loooong way to go.Thanks for asking, Traveller! :)
Well good! I'm glad to hear that you had reached your November goal and congrats on that. Good luck with the rest, Ruth. :)Btw, sadly we still don't seem to have found the meaning of "Metacyclosynchrotron " ? Or is it hiding somewhere on the pages I had linked to?
Looking around I found this comment in another website http://bluehighwind.blogspot.se/2011/... asking the same question:It's a play on [words], and please forgive me if I don't nail the spelling on this off the top of my head, but it's from the Greek, "metacyclosyuklotron," which I learned from browsing through the OED (and what I was Googling when I found this discussion), which pertains to some theological notion of the secret, 100th name of God, the context for which wasn't included in the dictionary entry but, given the apophatic naming conventions of Islam's "99 names of God," is most likely from some Greek commentary on Muslim theology, though I recall something similar in one of Louis Jorge Borges stories. Oddly, this means that Eco's funny dvandva play on word's neologism does crop up on Google, but the term which inspired it doesn't. And I don't have a subscription to the OED Online, so I can't search there, but I remember it being in the printed version when there were 22 main volumes with 2 addenda.
Maybe?
My list for chapter one and the link Traveller posted match pretty well. I am just left with archeopterix-beaks, archons, and Nuremberg Maidens.I am confused by the definition for pentaculum, which seems to be a six-pointed star, or Star of David. But... isn't 'penta-' 5?
Ruth wrote: "Looking around I found this comment in another website http://bluehighwind.blogspot.se/2011/... asking the same question:It's a play on [words], and please forgive me if I d..."
Ha, I was just going to say that it looks as if Eco didn't do a China Mièville on us (since CM's little Easter Eggs are always verifiable) and then you posted that epiphany! So the word definitely has a verifiable root. And a very interesting and, it seems, relevant one, thank you so much for that, Ruth!
Can anyone visualize a 'sentry box for a periscope'? I can only picture periscopes on a submarine....a sentry box there seems redundant.
I think my head just exploded...
Ruth wrote: "Can anyone visualize a 'sentry box for a periscope'? I can only picture periscopes on a submarine....a sentry box there seems redundant."Well, I would assume that the cubicle designed for looking through the periscope of a submarine, would be a 'sentry box' per se. I'd have assumed that's what they call the little space/room /cubicle from which you look through the periscope's lens or whatever you call it that you look through, and had assumed as a matter of course that it is a submarine periscope that we're talking about. So basically, Casaubon climbed into the submarine, or there is a periscope cubicle or sentry box taken from a submarine that's been put on view in the museum.
In every movie I've seen, the periscope of a submarine tucks up into the ceiling of the bridge, and they pull it down to use it in the open bridge area. Maybe I'll get a chance to ask the submariner who lives next door (except, they were just staying there while they built a new house, and I haven't seen lights for a while, so I think they might have moved).I think they just put something like a sentry box in the museum to tuck the periscope into to prevent it being a hazard. Though I did note that Casaubon (which is a spoiler, because I haven't got far enough to know that's his name, yet) said "And so I remained underwater for what seemed a very long time." That confused me for a while.
J. wrote: "I think my head just exploded..."?
and to Derek, yeah, that underwater line confused me too. Still does, in fact. If you have figured it out, please explain (unless it is a spoiler, of course :) ).
Well, might this help, perhaps?
Keeping in mind that we're probably talking a fairly old submarine here- among the first ones, in fact, it might look close to the last pic.
I think in an old submarine, the inside of the 'bridge' (or tower) area might be this "sentry box" that Casaubon refers to. Or that's what I had assumed when I read it.
LOL, look at this:
I'm on a roll now, sorry!
Underwater in an imaginary sense, perhaps?
Ok, and check this out. It's just cool. http://gcaptain.com/mm-may-fourteen-t...
And this: http://www.arts-et-metiers.net/
Cool images. I find it safe to say that C is waxing symbolic concerning his involvement and the dread associated with such.
Monkey Fist should be on this group's advisory board.
Another link to wisdom, Alhazen the Persian polymath mentioned in the second chapter, in 1038 in Cairo, contributed to the work of Dar-el-Hikma, the city's "House of Wisdom". Earlier he performed experiments in optics in Bagdad's House of Wisdom.
Jonfaith wrote: "Monkey Fist should be on this group's advisory board."Monkey Junk should be on this group's playlist :)
(view spoiler)Ruth, I'm starting to think we should keep track of specific themes. "Wisdom" certainly seems to be one of the themes. If only one could create a deeper hierarchy of files on the GR groups, we could perhaps have somehow set up a separate section for each of the Sephira, to try and keep things tidier. I wonder if we should have broken the discussion into more threads?
Comparing the second chapter to the list in Wikipedia, well, it doesn't match up so well. Here's a few I've found:draisienne
Hmmm, what a shame. There were these wonderful photos but it seems copy paste doesn't work the same way here. So here's the link to said photos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draisienne
alembic
Cool photos here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alembic
Hmmm, Muslims don't drink but do deal in distillation....
And back to wisdom again... Demiurge's mother is Sophia
and one more: Hermes Trismegistus is called a "divine source of wisdom".
Exactly Ruth, Sophia might be a reference to the gnostic incarnation of Demiurge's mother and source of wisdom. I can't wait to meet this Lorenza Pellegrini to actually see whether she is really a muse, a kind of Sophia-widsom like archetype or if Eco is playing one of his games and the character turns out to be something completely opposite to what they apparently seem. In a sense, this female character might also be another conduit to present once more Eco's constant juxtaposition between wisdom and science.
I've been out for the weekend and I see I missed the most interesting discussion while I was away.Reading Michele's particularly engaging posts about the influence of computers in the rational aspect of human beings, I can relate some of her ideas to the impression I had while reading chapter 3, in which Casaubon goes through Belbo's "files" (which btw were protected by the most spectacular yet witless password of all history. Eco is a walking contradiction).
Casaubon's account of how Belbo let his mind wander in front of a blank page, associating ideas and writing texts that were never to see the light, texts that, therefore, were freer than if they had been intended for publication got me thinking. I see Belbo's apparent choice to resign writing in favor of reading as a result of a pragmatic and logical approach. His resolve of being an intelligent spectator when he acquiesces he can't become the "main character" is a perfect example of a cost opportunity trade-off analysis, hence of rationality.
It also reminds me of Bolaño and his statement than reading is always more important than writing.
Ruth wrote: "Hmmm, Muslims don't drink but do deal in distillation.... "Strictly, while many Muslims don't drink at all, the qu'ranic exhortation is against "strong drink", and historically there wasn't a problem with wine (Lebanon has a large wine industry).
Dolors wrote: "which btw were protected by the most spectacular yet witless password of all history. Eco is a walking contradiction"
I don't think it was that witless. Casaubon suspects that Belbo only ever thought to apply a password when he began to believe that somebody was after him, and he needed to use a password that his colleagues could crack. Still, it did seem to be something that his enemies could figure out as easily (or more so) than Casaubon. Surely there must have been something that would be more obvious to his friends while less obvious to his enemies.
Ruth wrote: "yeah, that underwater line confused me too. Still does, in fact."I think this is just a pun, an ironic way to say that he was hiding. I'm reading a Romanian translation and there the word 'submarine' is used instead of 'underwater' - so 'I remained (a) submarine for what seemed a very long time.'
Traveller wrote: "the meaning of "Metacyclosynchrotron"I couldn't find anything relevant either. I separated the word into parts and we would have either meta/cyclo-synchrotron or meta/cyclo(tron)/synchrotron.
It has to do with Astrophysics or something, it's beyond my field of understanding. :)
A cyclotron is a type of particle accelerator in which charged particles accelerate outwards from the center along a spiral path. Cyclotrons were the best source of high-energy beams for nuclear physics experiments; several cyclotrons are still in use for this type of research. Also, they can be used in particle therapy to treat cancer.
A synchrotron is a particular type of cyclic particle accelerator originating from the cyclotron in which the guiding magnetic field (bending the particles into a closed path) is time-dependent, being synchronized to a particle beam of increasing kinetic energy.
A synchrocyclotron is a cyclotron in which the frequency of the driving RF electric field is varied to compensate for relativistic effects as the particles' velocity begins to approach the speed of light. This is in contrast to the classical cyclotron, where the frequency was held constant.
Dolors wrote: " I can't wait to meet this Lorenza Pellegrini to actually see whether she is really a muse, a kind of Sophia-widsom like archetype or if Eco is playing one of his games and the character turns out to be something completely opposite to what they apparently seem. In a sense, this female character might also be another conduit to present once more Eco's constant juxtaposition between wisdom and science. "Oops, okay I remember now that you'd commented already about the inscription on Lorenza's photograph. I'd say that deepens the foreshadowing about Lorenza, deepens the mystery around her and the possibility that he might be using her as a symbol.
About the password: it made me laugh out loud in appreciation and enjoyment. I loved it. It so nicely demonstrates Eco's whacky sense of humor.
@ Ema: Thanks for your hard work on the Metacyclosynchrotron, both you and Ruth. So the word seems three-quarters rooted in truth/astrophysics and a quarter in supercalifragilisticexpialidociousness. :P
Cool discussion of Sophia and cyclotrons. It is apt that we also paused to consider being underwater. The arid wit here remains a perfect match for Eco's playful observations.
Traveller wrote: "Who the heck are The Assassins even?"Sorry, I meant to respond to this at the time. I'm only about a month and a half late.
"The Assassins" are the Hashshashins, Ismailis and the followers (at the time of most of the events described in the book) of Rashid ad-Din Sinan, the Old Man of the Mountain. He (and they) were significant players during the Crusades, and would be well known to the Templars.
Foucault's Pendulum
Books mentioned in this topic
Foucault’s Pendulum (other topics)Middlemarch (other topics)
Forbidden Archeology: The Hidden History of the Human Race (other topics)
In the Wake of Chaos: Unpredictable Order in Dynamical Systems (other topics)
Fractals and Chaos: The Mandelbrot Set and Beyond (other topics)
More...
I found a few books on the subject here on GR:
Does God Play Dice?: The New Mathematics of Chaos
Fractals and Chaos: The Mandelbrot Set and Beyond
Newton's Clock: Chaos in the Solar System
In the Wake of Chaos: Unpredictable Order in Dynamical Systems