Language & Grammar discussion

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message 351: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
Yes you are.


message 352: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments The Pennsylvania Dutch would say, "The glue is all."


message 353: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
The Jersey Dutch would say, "Da bottle's come unglued."


message 354: by Tyler (new)

Tyler  (tyler-d) | 268 comments I've never heard anyone say "has got over." Maybe it's a regional style.


message 355: by Nita (new)

Nita | 43 comments Thank you, Debbie! I'll remember that, David! :-)


message 356: by Nita (new)

Nita | 43 comments Hi!

Can I safely change the following:
Create a custom content metadata field, which has the same name OF the custom security field
To:
Create a custom content metadata field, which has the same name AS the custom security field

Thank you!



message 357: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
Yes


message 358: by Nita (new)

Nita | 43 comments Thank you, Debbie.


message 359: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
You're welcome :-)


message 360: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments Is this use of "whom" correct? It looks wrong to me.

"Iraqis know who they were, and they don’t always like it, but they still have not figured out whom they want to be as a country." (NYT)



message 361: by Nita (new)

Nita | 43 comments I believe it should be:
"Iraqis know who they were, and they don’t always like it, but they still have not figured out WHO they want to be as a country."

I found the following note on m-w.com:

Usage: Observers of the language have been predicting the demise of whom from about 1870 down to the present day . Our evidence shows that no one—English or not—should expect whom to disappear momentarily; it shows every indication of persisting quite a while yet. Actual usage of who and whom—accurately described at the entries in this dictionary—does not appear to be markedly different from the usage of Shakespeare's time. But the 18th century grammarians, propounding rules and analogies, rejecting other rules and analogies, and usually justifying both with appeals to Latin or Greek, have intervened between us and Shakespeare. It seems clear that the grammarians' rules have had little effect on the traditional uses. One thing they have accomplished is to encourage hypercorrect uses of whom . Another is that they have made some people unsure of themselves .






message 362: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments I agree with you. The "whom" should in this case be "who." If you know "who you were," you should know "who you are" and "who you want to be."

You wouldn't ask "Whom am I?" (laugh)

Or have I missed something here?


message 363: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments The traditional English teacher explanation is that the verb "to be" is a "copula" (don't ask), and so both the subject and the complement are in the nominative. "Whom" is in the oblique (genitive/dative/accusative) case and hence is inappropriate.

Moreover, in the colloquial register of American English, "whom" is vanishing. "Who're ya gonna call? Ghostbusters!"


message 364: by Ken, Moderator (last edited Jul 16, 2009 08:21AM) (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
Agreed. "Whom" is now on life support. The correct word "all right" is vanishing in favor of that new being, "alright," and few people are saying, "If I were..." because they prefer "If I was...."

Language, like our reflections in the mirror, slowly changes.


message 365: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments Anyways, there ain't much we can do about it except piss and moan.


message 366: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments It's true, but I still like "whom." Last summer I read Anne Enright's "The Gathering" and it will sound fussy but I remember being repeatedly irritated by the absence of "whom."


message 367: by Ruth (new)

Ruth | 16546 comments Mod
Newengland wrote: "Agreed. "Whom" is now on life support. The correct word "all right" is vanishing in favor of that new being, "alright," and few people are saying, "If I were..." because they prefer "If I was......."

Not to mention "a lot" which is morphing into "alot." Yech.




message 368: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments Arright, fuggedabadit aready.


message 369: by Tyler (new)

Tyler  (tyler-d) | 268 comments Iraqis know who they were, and they don’t always like it, but they still have not figured out whom they want to be as a country.

I'm in favor of whom. It's clear that the final phrase is the direct object of the clause; in addition, whom is the object of they in the final phrase.

I personally say things like, "Whom shall I say is calling." If the most egregious thing a style book can say is that it's "hypercorrect," then that makes me a jerk, I suppose. But it remains grammatically correct.



message 370: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
And if someone calls and asks if Tyler is there, I'll bet you say, "This is he."


message 371: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
And why not....when I get "Is this the lady of the house", I say "This is she"!


message 372: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
As you should. It's correct English. But many would use the objective case there.


message 373: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
Philistines!


message 374: by Tyler (last edited Jul 17, 2009 10:01AM) (new)

Tyler  (tyler-d) | 268 comments Indeed. Philistines. Objective case abusers! "It's me." Why, who would ever dream of ... same cretins who say "real good." Ah, yes, I am he. Much better.

English usage may be in flux; I just don't want to be ahead of the curve. Conservative is safer.


message 375: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
Yes. Safety is what we need. Language prophylactics.


message 376: by David (last edited Jul 17, 2009 02:50PM) (new)

David | 4568 comments Grammar: a riddle wrapped in a cundrum?


message 377: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
Hehehehehehehe!!! Hahahahaha!!!!


message 378: by Tyler (new)

Tyler  (tyler-d) | 268 comments Conservative to prophylactic wrappen in three easy posts.


message 379: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments OK, I fixed the typo.

My copy editing latex leaked. That's how solecisms and malapropisms get born.


message 380: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
This is where the rubbers hit the road.


message 381: by Ruth (new)

Ruth | 16546 comments Mod
ouch.


message 382: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments Hi -
'nother question:

"They all smoked cigarettes. Gina's suffocated in an ashtray. Two unfiltered were stomped dead on the floor."

Should "unfiltered" have an -s?

Thanks!


message 383: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
My guess is you could go either way. I like it the way you have it because it keeps "unfiltered" as an adjective and assumes the missing noun "cigarettes."

Working on a piece, I see. Great!


message 384: by Jan (the Gryphon) (new)

Jan (the Gryphon) (yogryphongmailcom) | 214 comments S. wrote: "Hi -
'nother question:

"They all smoked cigarettes. Gina's suffocated in an ashtray. Two unfiltered were stomped dead on the floor."

Should "unfiltered" have an -s?

Thanks!"


I'm with Newengland on this. The immediate precedent of "Gina's suffocated..." has set up the "Two unfiltered..." sufficiently for the reader's comprehension.


message 385: by Gail (new)

Gail I agree with both of the above. "Unfiltereds" would both sound clumsy and create a bit of mess if the sentence were mentally completed with the understood "cigarettes".


message 386: by Tyler (new)

Tyler  (tyler-d) | 268 comments Newengland is right. "Unfiltered" works much better as an adjective. As a reader, the last sentence didn't confuse me, and it fit creatively with the preceding ones.


message 387: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments Thanks Newengland, Janice, Gail and Tyler. I wrote it without the -s but began to wonder.... It's part of a short poem that isn't quite like it is written here but I used this as a prose example.
Danke schön!


message 388: by Ken, Moderator (new)

Ken | 18714 comments Mod
My father-in-law, who was visiting from Connecticut last week, brought up a Sunday New York Times, including the Sunday magazine. There was a column by the language maven about the pronoun THEY and how it was used as a singular throughout history. Seems only in the mid-18th century that a woman who wrote a best-selling grammar started the habit of using HE or HIM to refer to both singular men or women (similar to "mankind" representing both sexes).

Furthermore, the column claimed that the singular THEY is coming back strong (as it was used by Dickens, Chaucer, Thackeray, etc.) and even showing up as a singular/plural in some dictionaries.

I've always taught that indefinite pronouns like anybody, someone, everybody should be treated as SINGULAR ANTECEDENTS (e.g. Everyone take out his or her books), but it appears I'm fighting against the tide and only teaching the more recent quirks of some grammarians sprouting up only 250 years ago -- a short span given the English language's storied history.

Interesting.


message 389: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments So they says.


message 390: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments What does the expression "the ink (on the contract) isn't dry yet" mean? Specifically, has the contract been signed or not? I think it means it has been signed but only very recently (like 5 minutes ago), but a friend says it means it's not signed yet.

thanks!


message 391: by Ruth (last edited Sep 03, 2009 03:32PM) (new)

Ruth | 16546 comments Mod
I think you're right, S. If it hadn't been signed yet there would be no ink on the contract.


message 392: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
Maybe it means that only one party has signed it.....ie the ink isn't dry from the first signature so it is not too late to back out?


message 393: by Sarah (new)

Sarah (sarahj) | 162 comments Ruth, right. If there's no ink, it can't be dry.
German has the same expression and we were going to use it in a story yesterday (i work in news) but didn't know if were would be implying that the contract had been signed or not.
Debbie, thanks. The expression does carry that suggestion that someone wants out.


message 394: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments An oral contract is not worth the paper it's written on.

--Sam Goldwyn


message 395: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
A Goldwynism!!! Love them! "Include me out".


message 396: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments "When you reach a fork in the road--take it!"

--Yogi Berra (the Sam Goldwyn of American baseball)




message 397: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments Lifelong quandary: INnovative or inNOVative? I use no. 1, but I hear no. 2. It seems arbitrary; IMmolation, inVENtion, INsulate, inSPECtion, but there may be a rule or rules in there somewhere. What does Jespersen say?


message 398: by Carol (new)

Carol | 10410 comments Where did the expression to fork over something ie:fork over the money etc. originate from ?


message 399: by David (new)

David | 4568 comments An Irishman who couldn't say "feck?"


message 400: by Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness (new)

Debbie (sardonicprincessofcheerfulness) | 6389 comments Mod
David!! Behave!
Carol, I think it has links with pitchforks and hay!


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