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[Gail]

Ah, so that is the American rule then. I thought I had seen it in American books like that, with no spaces. Maybe in casual modern usage, people combine the British and American way, from exposure to both.

[Ken, Moderator]

Here's Bryan Garner, American Usage guru:

"The em-dash, which is as wide as the capital M, is used to mark an interruption in the structure of a sentence. In typewriting, it is commonly represented by two hyphens, often with a space at each end of the pair ( -- )... A pair of em-dashes can be used to enclose a parenthetical remark or to make the ending and the resumption of a statement by an interlocuter... The em-dash can also be used to replace the colon."

"The en-dash, which is half as wide as the em-dash, is distinct (in print) from the hyphen. It joins pairs or groups of words to show a range, and also indicates movement or tension (rather than cooperation or unity). It is often equivalent to to or versus... In typewriting and in newspaper journalism, the en-dash is commonly represented by a single hyphen. Word-processing programs can insert a true en-dash, but the procedure varies among programs."

[Ken, Moderator]

Which means I haven't a clue about the en-dash, but I use the em-dash all the time and it needs its space, thank you, and TWO hyphen hits to make it dashing.

[Jonathan]

The en-dash is primarily of concern to copy editors and book designers, NE. I wouldn't worry about it, as there really isn't a convenient way to indicate an en-dash (as opposed to simple hyphen) in traditional typescript, and although word-processing programs may be able to create the mark, using these fancier functions often leads to confusion in the editing process.

Here are the traditional copy editor's marks to indicate the insertion of an em-dash and en-dash and to close up any added space between the dash and text. The image also shows an instance of the simple hyphen. Believe it or not, 90 percent of trade books in the U.S. are still edited this way--by hand. Academic publishing has been quicker to adopt electronic editing. So have newspapers and magazines.

[David]

Carol (Kitty) wrote: "Seriously grammar was my worst subject. I am never to old to learn. Even my husband has better grammar than me and his first language is not English. LOL"

"Whereas others are instructed in their native language, English people aren't. Although she may have studied with an expert dialectician and grammarian, I can tell---that she was born Hungarian! Not only Hungarian, but of royal blood!"

[Jonathan]

Thank Heavens for Zoltan Karparthy.

[David]

Kaparthy? That dreadful Hungarian? Was he there?

[Carol]

I would not have minded Rex Harrison for a teacher.

[Ruth]

Being a seat-of-the-pants grammarian, I'm not surprised that my husband, whose native language is Norwegian, is at times better versed in formal grammar than I am.

[Danaran]

Hello there. Is it grammatically correct to use a comparative or superlative form of a word that has tree or more syllables? I find it to sound eccentric.

[Nancy]

First of all, I am so glad that I found this group!
Second, I have a question: We recently visited St. Simons (sic) Island in Georgia. EVERYWHERE you see St. Simons (sic), on signs, literature, brochures, etc. there is NO APOSTROPHE! Why??? Can anyone help me out? Why did they all just agree to leave out the apostrophe? Am I the only one who cares?? This has been bugging me for weeks, ever since we were there.

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Maybe it cost too much Nancy!! Or maybe it is like Hawkes Bay in NZ, which is actually Hawke Bay (named after someone called Hawke). Perhaps it is actually St Simon Island! Hawke Bay is often misspelled 'Hawkes' on some signs and in publications.

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Oh.....and welcome!

[Jonathan]

Yes, I'll second the welcome to Nancy and Danaran. With regard to St. Simons, I have no idea if there is a specific explanation for that particular dropped apostrophe, but it's a phenomenon that seems to have occurred over time with other place names too, like St. Johns River in Florida. It is odd.

Danaran, I think you're right that longer adjectives generally form the comparative and superlative forms using "more" and "most" rather than -er and -est. But there are some short words with which "more" and "most" work quite well too. In any event, it's a good question. Anyone else know if there is a specific rule or guideline about this?

[Ken, Moderator]

Hi Danaran (again... I said hello in the WORD thread, too). Hi, Nancy. Apostrophes are an oppressed people these days. But more often they are used when they're not supposed to be to form a word's plural! Arghhhh! Damned if you do, damned if you don't!

[Ruth]

Danaran wrote: "Hello there. Is it grammatically correct to use a comparative or superlative form of a word that has tree or more syllables? I find it to sound eccentric."

Hi Danaran. Here's what the newly minted 16th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style says: "An adjective with three or more syllables takes most instead of a suffix to form the superlative [examples: quarrelsome / most quarrelsome; humorous / most humorous]. Some adjectives with two syllables take the -est suffix [holy / holiest; noble / noblest], but most two-syllable adjectives take most [most fruitful; most reckless]."

Comparatives would be parallel. There doesn't seem to be any rule for which TWO-syllable adjectives take more or most vs. -er or -est. That is just a matter of idiom & ear.

NE, the quoted bit is by your preferred guru Bryan Garner (& edited by me).

[Ken, Moderator]

Thanks for that, Ruth. He's only my preferred guru because I have his book sitting beside my computer. Easy access == gurudom.

[Gail]

I learnt that two-syllable adjectives ending with 'y', 'le', 'ow' and 'er' take the 'er' and 'est' for comparative and superlative. However, I think in America it doesn't apply to words ending in 'er', probably because of the different pronunciation. We say 'cleverer' and 'cleverest', for instance, and Americans say 'more clever' and 'most clever'. But I think the other ones apply to both countries (not sure about '-ow' actually - that sounds quite a tongue-twister if I try to say it with an American accent!):

-y - pretty, prettier, prettiest
-le - subtle, subtler, subtlest
-ow - narrow, narrower, narrowest

I think with the '-le', it's because the l changes from a syllabic 'l' to a non-syllabic 'l', so the word still has only two syllables when the 'er' or 'est' is added. The others are because they end in a vowel (and the 'er' ending is a vowel in most UK accents, which is why it works here and not in America).

[Ken, Moderator]

Speaking of Revolutionary War splits, your opening reminds me that Americans always use "learned" as the past tense of "learn," but I see "learnt" (as well as "dreamt") a lot here in New England where some old colonial habits are still hanging around a bit.

Garner calls "learnt" an "affectation" if used in the States. Oh.

[Gail]

Hehe - I've been accused of affectation by Americans on the internet because I use 'whilst'. Apparently in the States it's an affectation. And saying 'jaguar' with three syllables is also apparently considered affectation by Americans - I never even knew there was a two-syllable way of pronouncing it!

[Ken, Moderator]

What's the three sound like? Jag-oo-ar?

[Ruth]

I use whilst often whilst writing but not whilst speaking.

[Gail]

jag-yoo-uh (we seem to precede our u's with y's more than you guys - 'due' is pronounced 'dyoo', 'stupid' is pronounced 'styoopid', etc. A few people even say 'syoot' for 'suit', but nowadays that is considered affectation. Funny how some things are decided to be affectation.)

[Nancy]

Debbie wrote: "Maybe it cost too much Nancy!! Or maybe it is like Hawkes Bay in NZ, which is actually Hawke Bay (named after someone called Hawke). Perhaps it is actually St Simon Island! Hawke Bay is often miss..."

Hi Debbie, thanks for the response. It's definitely St. Simon's (well, it has an "s" at the end but they choose to leave the apostrophe off). It is annoying to me that the apostrophe has just become misused/optional these days.

[Nancy]

Newengland wrote: "What's the three sound like? Jag-oo-ar?"

LOL I hate that! :)

[Nancy]

Newengland wrote: "Hi Danaran (again... I said hello in the WORD thread, too). Hi, Nancy. Apostrophes are an oppressed people these days. But more often they are used when they're not supposed to be to form a word..."

Hi NE, thanks for the response. You are so right, and it's so sad. It's also frustrating. I don't understand the new practice of just randomly adding one at the end of a word before an "s" to make it PLURAL. And you are right, also leaving it off when it should be there, as in "St. Simons". I LOVED St. Simon's Island but honestly, driving around seeing all those signs saying "St. Simons" about drove me crazy.

[Ruth]

My husband's last name is Vogt-Nilsen. Here's how you spell it when watching someone filling out a form for you.

V as in victory, O, G as in George, T as in Tom, hyphen, no that's an apostrophe use a dash, N as in Nellie...

[Ruth]

capriwim wrote: "I learnt that two-syllable adjectives ending with 'y', 'le', 'ow' and 'er' take the 'er' and 'est' for comparative and superlative. However, I think in America it doesn't apply to words ending in '..."

OK, there are some guidelines--cool. Actually I too would say "cleverer" & "cleverest," with no sense that I am committing a Britishism.

"Narrower" is not a tongue-twister at all for someone from the US. NEH-roh-er or NAH-roh-er (it varies slightly by region, I think). How would you pronounce it, capriwim?

I confess to having giggled multiple times when I lived in London, hearing people call Sarah "Sarer."

[Ruth]

capriwim wrote: "jag-yoo-uh (we seem to precede our u's with y's more than you guys - 'due' is pronounced 'dyoo', 'stupid' is pronounced 'styoopid', etc. A few people even say 'syoot' for 'suit', but nowadays that ..."

Heehee--my dad, who never even visited Great Britain to my knowledge, insisted on pronouncing "news" "nyooz." He came from a working-class immigrant German family & was the first to get a college degree (& went on to a PhD eventually). He deliberately tried to speak elegantly, & sometimes it was a bit funny, e.g., "SEC-syoo-el" for "sexual."

[Gail]

With regard to apostrophes in street names, you might find this interesting: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newst... - in Birmingham, apostrophes in street names have been banned!

[Ken, Moderator]

Elton John (Britishisms in song) says "SEC-syoo-el" in the song "Candle in the Wind" about Marilyn Monroe. In the song "Levon," he pronounces garage like so: "gare-ij." That one I like. I say it all the time now to annoy people (they say, "Do you mean ga-raj?").

[Robin]

Ruth wrote: "My husband's last name is Vogt-Nilsen. Here's how you spell it when watching someone filling out a form for you.

V as in victory, O, G as in George, T as in Tom, hyphen, no that's an apostrophe u..."

i have the same thing my last name is a different spelling and i always have to spell it out.

[Robin]

and NE not to forget you the one i like is put the cah in the gahrahge. i heard someone say that once and it still makes me giggle.

[Ruth]

Robin wrote: "Ruth wrote: "My husband's last name is Vogt-Nilsen. Here's how you spell it when watching someone filling out a form for you.

V as in victory, O, G as in George, T as in Tom, hyphen, no that's an..."

And do you always have trouble because people don't know what a hyphen is?

[Robin]

I tell them dash like my address has a hypen i just say ---dash -

[Ruth]

Robin wrote: "I tell them dash like my address has a hypen i just say ---dash -"

Oh, I thought you meant you have a hyphen in your name, like my husband.

[Robin]

no this is when you said in #910 I confused you I was just reiterating when people don;t know how to spell last names like my last name is Irish, and the spelling is different from the norm it is Flanagin, but everyone spells it Flannagan, or Flaniggin, different variations of the spelling. So I got what you where you were coming from, merely that.

[Ruth]

But I wasn't coming from that, Robin. The point was that people often put in an apostrophe when they're told it's a hyphen.

[Gail]

I've never come across people thinking a hyphen means an apostrophe. I guess the concept of 'hyphenated names' is quite common here.

[Robin]

That's why we say dash instead of hyphen because if we said hyphen people would go what, and so we would end up having to write the thing down ourselves. We have that at our school so many kids, take both the fathers and mothers last name. One I knew in a preschool was a long one.

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Your school Robin? Are you a teacher too?

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

I have three legal last names (with two hyphens in between) and I like that for legal papers. People can't look you up in public records unless they know all the names and I never give out one of them. I don't have things to hide, but I like my privacy and I don't like it that some sites are putting all our information online now, even Social Security numbers. I think it should be criminal to do so. I never put my correct Social Security number on anything any longer unless it's for Social Security or the IRS.

[M]

Ruth, do you specify an em dash or an en dash?

[Robin]

No, Debbie, I am an adult supervisor, I set up breakfast in the a.m. and take down, which means I set up the table for the children to dispose of their breakfast, bucket for food, tray for silverware, and plates lined up. And I have a split shift and go back at 10:30 and work til 12:30, I also supervise on the playground. And in the llunch room for both lunches.

[TheGirlBytheSeaofCortez]

M wrote: "Ruth, do you specify an em dash or an en dash?"

An en is a hyphen, an em is a dash, which is longer.

(I realize I'm not Ruth and apologies for butting in, but I've proofread mss. for publication, so hope I could give my input.)

[Robin]

no but you must link up with the correct comment such as you did. :)

[Debbie, sardonic princess of cheerfulness]

Breakfast Robin? Is it a boarding school?

[Robin]

No it is an elementary school, I guess it does sound kind of rigid. But I have been doing it for 4 years, Pretty much supervising the cafeteria in the morning, open childrens' milk, just all around drill sergeant keeping my troops in line, or little charges. I work 3 hours a day, it is just gawdafwful getting up at 5:30, get my daughter roused from bed, get breakfast and out the door, and I take her to the bus stop, to wait for her school bus, and I walk down the road and start my day at7:00, but I go early to set everything up. That's my day in a nutshell.

[M]

Hi, MrsSeby! People can be peculiar about their names. I wondered if maybe Ruth set off the second part of her last name, as you'd use dashes to interrupt a sentence with an interesting observation of some sort. An en dash isn't a hyphen. A hyphen is a typographical character all its own.

[Ruth]

'Tain't my last name, M. It's my husband's. And if you want people to write a hyphen instead of an apostrophe, you'd better say "dash" when spelling it out loud, whether that's the correct term or not.