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The Great Gatsby
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The Great Gatsby - November 2013
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Angela wrote: "I understand what you are all saying about not liking most of the characters in the book . Of course , I love Gatsby in spite of his flaws and definitely Nick .All of the others Daisy , Tom , Jor..."
I too like, even enjoy Nick and Gatsby. Would you say that Nick was a middle class man who got stuck in between the upper class?
Even with a situation, I don't think I can really fault Gatsby. He was just stricken by love with his actions and the plot was molded to show this.
Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . Gatsby on the other hand is now rich but it wasn't always that way . He comes from humble roots as we see in the poignant scene when his father shows Nick the book Gatsby had as a boy and his list of things to do to get ahead . Gatsby tries desperately to prove to Daisy he has arrived - the mansion , the infamous car , the extravagant parties , the English shirts , saying that he went to Oxford .
I think that Gatsby truly believes that he can buy back the past by becoming the rich man that he was not when Daisy rejected him for Tom.
I thought the list he made as a little boy was such a great detail. It had a heartbreaking quality to it. And if I recall correctly, that was left out entirely in the movie, but I think it's an important detail they should've included.
Cathy ,I agree ! If I remember correctly it was in the older movie with Robert Redford but yes left out if the more recent movie . A big omission , I think since it really told so much about Gatsby .
Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . Gatsby on the other hand is now ..."
So as I progress in the book I thought it moved a bit slowly throughout the party, but loved the ending line of Ch. 4...(view spoiler)..Bang! Right there you know Nick is an unreliable narrator as he is totally intrigued by the lifestyle of the affluent, drawn into it, and covets trying to be in its inner circle. Now, I'm through to where Gatsby meets Daisy and is somewhat a bumbler through the ordeal. But why his infatuation? Perhaps I'm not there yet, but I'm not sure that is ever explained.
Roderick wrote: "Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . Gatsby on the oth..."
Keep reading :-). Great thing about this book, it fills in MOST details.
Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . Gatsby on the other hand is now ..."
Angela... you are a treat to be in a book club discussion with! I love that this forum isn't too busy. Gatsby completely transformed himself into this rich person (even a name change!) If he can do that, I am sure he was thinking that Daisy was in reach.
The green light! To reply to the green light DQ, I think it represents how money(green) was such a key to aquiring Daisy again. He sits there with his luxurious lifestyle, being able to see this green light at a distance.
Cathy wrote: "I thought the list he made as a little boy was such a great detail. It had a heartbreaking quality to it. And if I recall correctly, that was left out entirely in the movie, but I think it's an imp..."This almost brought me to tears! Fitzgerald did wonders by including this list; it gave us more of a perspective and really helped me feel sorry for Gatsby.
It was left out of the new movie?! I have not seen it yet....
Kayla wrote: "Cathy wrote: "I thought the list he made as a little boy was such a great detail. It had a heartbreaking quality to it. And if I recall correctly, that was left out entirely in the movie, but I thi..."Yes, they left out everything to do with his father. So the list isn't mentioned either, even though I also think it was such a significant and character-building trait. In spite of this, the movie is definitely worth a watch, it's pretty good!
Fitzgerald said that "he wanted to write something intricately patterned" and I think he definitely achieved that.There are so many nuances in this novel and it is wonderful to see so many people discussing them here. This is a book that I think should be included in all school syllabi. It is of an age - the Jazz Age - but remains ageless.
I barely remember reading the book a number of years ago - I definitely need to check up on the movie.
Roderick wrote: "Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . Gatsby on the oth..."
I think that Gatsby's love gets read on many levels. It's a symbol for commerce, etc.
I think there is a desperate quality to it. It's his hope for something.
But I also think it can be read as just his first love, the one he really wanted. Haven't we all had that experience? Maybe not going back and confronting the now-married couple, but I think such a love is possible.
And there was the class difference. Marrying her would change his social status, though it might risk bringing her down. In a world in love with money, the discrepancy might have been overlooked. (But probably not by those she cared about.) Daisy wasn't particularly strong. But who is, at that age?
Kayla wrote: "Cathy wrote: "I thought the list he made as a little boy was such a great detail. It had a heartbreaking quality to it. And if I recall correctly, that was left out entirely in the movie, but I thi..."I found the list interesting and poignant.
I agree , Rick , it is absolutely a love story !
Katy wrote: "Roderick wrote: "Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born into money . ..."
Still not finished yet, but I agree and think Gatsby idealized his past image of Daisy. But now, that image has been corrupted by money. He says as much directly. Gatsby wants to relive his past with Daisy, and it is a certain innuendo that he doesn't know how to swim in the pool of money he has today. I'm currently at the part where all the secrets come out in the open. The question of what Gatsby saw in Daisy in the first place is still left unanswered. I suppose no character in the book has really stunned me yet, although I do like Nick's witty observations, and the writing is very well done. Still some more left to read though.
Roderick wrote: "Katy wrote: "Roderick wrote: "Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born ..."
I'm with you, Roderick. There isn't a character I really like in this book. As for what drew Nick to Daisy, initially maybe conquest. But I think it was possible there were true feelings, maybe despite himself.
Katy , I think that even though Gatsby seems to be in love with his ideal of Daisy, I agree with you that he has true feeling of love for her . Talking with Nick as he is looking over at Daisy's house after the accident , I think he exhibits his caring for her . Then ultimately what he does to protect her in my view illustrates his love for Daisy.
RitaSkeeter wrote: "Roderick wrote: "...The question of what Gatsby saw in Daisy in the first place is still left unanswered... "Perhaps I'm a little more cynical, but my thought was that he was infatuated with Dai..."
Re: your spoiler. I think that's exactly how Fitzgerald wanted us to feel. I felt so very sad for Gatsby and my dislike of Daisy/Tom etc only increased. It may be true of this novel be careful what you wish for. Gatsby idealized Daisy but ideals often falter.
So I read the book and watched the movie, and I fairly like the story line. The book was boring, but I got through it. But let me tell you this, whenever I hear "daisy", I throw a tantrum. One of the reasons why I like this piece of work is my absolute hatred for Daisy. I felt so bad for Gatsby. My heart went out for him. But Daisy, I would hate to meet her. I have like a hit list of all the characters I hate from books I read, and Daisy is NUMBER ONE!
Roderick wrote: "Katy wrote: "Roderick wrote: "Angela wrote: "Kayla ,You picked up on what I think is a major theme in the novel . Nick clearly is not in the same class as Tom and Daisy who seem to have been born ..."
Have you read the book before, or have you finished? I want to make a comment but I do not want to ruin anything!
RitaSkeeter wrote: "Bette wrote: ". It may be true of this novel be careful what you wish for. Gatsby idealized Daisy but ideals often falter..." I agree with this. I also think the novel demonstrates the superfici..."
@Kayla, go ahead and comment. I'm only 20 pages away from the end. Bette, I agree with the "be careful what you wish for" as well. I like Gatsby as a character, but I don't see him as righteous as everyone on this thread does. Gatsby hasn't done anything to gain my sympathy. While he is mostly honest, he isn't 100% of the time (admitting to be a bootlegger finally). Would a gentleman not go report himself to the police in the case of running down a woman? With all respect for the Gatsby lovers out there, for me, one of the problems is that there is no plot devise that sets Gatsby apart as this righteous character. He has been a rags to riches character who is deeply in love with the idea of Daisy and the past, but it just wasn't enough for me. If he had gone into the police and admitted his crime, then his fate and how I would have felt about him would have been altered (like Crime and Punishment)...Nick's story also falls apart. Those witty insights about the rich disappear later in the novel. His own story gets absorbed by Gatsby's. I have to say that the writing is great though. Fitzgerald can certainly write.
Roderick , You say you would have felt better about Gatsby if he went to the police to admit his crime of running down a woman but Gatsby was not driving the car . It was Daisy .
I think it takes more than being a gentleman to make the sacrifice of not reporting that it was Daisy . He was protecting her at all costs. Whether he loves her or the ideal if her or what she represents , he believes that he loves her .
Hi Angela,Yes, I know that. But still, a woman (Myrtle) died, was run down, left, and there was an avoidance of admittance to that by either Gatsby or Daisy. It doesn't make either of them redeemable in my eyes, and therefore I'm apathetic when Wilson shoots him. One could even go so far to argue "he had it coming". Isn't it Wilson who is the tragic figure here?
Roderick , Wilson and Myrtle are tragic characters and Wilson kills Gatsby not only because he thinks Gatsby ran Myrtle down but because he thinks Gatsby was the one having an affair with Myrtle instead of Tom. If you recall Myrtle ran in front of the car trying to flag it down because she thought Tom was driving .
I definitely don't agree that Gatsby had it coming and I still think that in spite of the bootlegging , etc he was a better person than Tom and Daisy .
What I enjoy about Goodreads is that we can see other opinions from our own . Sometimes they make you think differently and sometimes not . I still feel the same way about this novel as when the discussion began but I have enjoyed the discussion.
Hi Angela,I've enjoyed the discussion too. I don't think Gatsby had it coming either, I merely can see how someone might interpret it that way. I also agree that Gatsby was a deeper character than Tom and Daisy, who are really stereotypes of the rich. And lastly, I agree that Goodreads is a great forum for other viewpoints! Thanks so much for your posts! You got me to read the book again :-) Hopefully, I've been a good citizen out here.
Absolutely ! The other good thing about Goodreads is "meeting" new people . It's been a pleasure and I look forward to other discussions .
I think that all the discussions here have been fair ones. As individuals, of course we will all draw our our opinions regarding the characters in GG. Angela's comment that Sometimes they make you think differently and sometimes not is simply spot-on.I've been in GR for 8 months and this is the first true discussion that I have found and it has been wonderful. GRers participation has been inisghtful and fantastic; I've met some lovely readers here.
I thank the moderators for opening this thread. Looking forward to many more here in this group.
Roderick wrote: "RitaSkeeter wrote: "Bette wrote: ". It may be true of this novel be careful what you wish for. Gatsby idealized Daisy but ideals often falter..." I agree with this. I also think the novel demons..."
Well you mentioned in your comment "swim in the pool of money", which I found a little ironic figuring how the book ends with Gatsby.
Julia wrote: "RitaSkeeter wrote: "Bette wrote: ". It may be true of this novel be careful what you wish for. Gatsby idealized Daisy but ideals often falter..." I agree with this. I also think the novel demons..."
You commented on how Gatsby was of a lower class than the others.... do you mean when he was younger?
To me it seemed like he was more rich then all of them, but because of his youth status the upper class mindset did not infect him yet.
Kayla wrote: "Well you mentioned in your comment "swim in the pool of money", which I found a little ironic figuring how the book ends with Gatsby."@Kayla...I think that was entirely accidental :-) , To all, if you like this roaring 20's theme, I would highly recommend either Main Street or Babbit by Sinclair Lewis. Both are more on the satirical side and quite different than Gatsby in this respect. But wow, do these books capture this time. The language used is "of the time" and apparently Lewis spent hours on the street gathering it up. "Babbit" is fresher in my mind, and the character is a never ending hypocrisy whom you just have to laugh at. Like Fitzgerald, Lewis is a fantastic writer, but certainly the style is much different.
Roderick wrote: "Kayla wrote: "Well you mentioned in your comment "swim in the pool of money", which I found a little ironic figuring how the book ends with Gatsby."@Kayla...I think that was entirely accidental :..."
I'm in for Main Street; thanks for the info!
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I agree with all your character assessments, but that is classic Fitzgerald. He's so good at taking the righteous and blurring the lines just a bit. If you like Gatsby, try Tender is the Night.
RitaSkeeter wrote: "Kayla wrote: You commented on how Gatsby was of a lower class than the others.... do you mean when he was younger? To me it seemed like he was more rich then all of them, but because of his youth ..."
Makes this conversation even more interesting! I am in no way an expert in this field, but I think the class system is def. depended on money.
I read this for the first time in high school and just reread it. I remembered enjoying it more the first time around, but that was a few years ago. I really enjoyed reading all discussion on the book. I really did not like Daisy at all!! I'm torn on my reaction to Gatsby.
Bette wrote: "Angela wrote: "I'll start by saying that The Great Gatsby is my all time favorite book and I have read it several times over. The first time was in high school (many, many years ago), but I do reme..."When I was pulling out the Great Gatsby, I saw Tender is the Night. I remember liking that one a lot. Should give it another go.
Hi Katy, Just an FYI. Bookish is about to read "Tender is the Night". I will skip it for now though as I've got three things on my list. Really enjoying Snow right now, but I'm still only about 30% through.https://www.goodreads.com/group/show/...
Roderick wrote: "Hi Katy, Just an FYI. Bookish is about to read "Tender is the Night". I will skip it for now though as I've got three things on my list. Really enjoying Snow right now, but I'm stil..."Wow! Thanks for the tip. December will be interesting - Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere, World War Z, plus one other that I can't remember off the top of my head, and Tender is the night. Good to work in a classic.
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Negative characters, cheating, lying, bitterness - yes, this story has all of those things. However, underneath all that is a beautiful love story and even more beautiful writing. Gatsby had his downfalls, but I didn't find him to be a genuinely "bad" person or unlikeable. I found him very charming, even with his not-so-perfect attributes. This book is wonderful; the setting, the scandal, the story of love lost and the yearning to get it back. It's one of my all-time favorites.
fivesunflowers wrote: "Negative characters, cheating, lying, bitterness - yes, this story has all of those things. However, underneath all that is a beautiful love story and even more beautiful writing. Gatsby had his ..."I didn't really consider it a beautiful love story. To have that, you need reciprocation. Daisy really didn't do that. For me, I considered Gatsby's love more of an idealistic love of the past Daisy more than one of realistic love of the present Daisy. But I agree that the writing was top notch.
Roderick wrote: "fivesunflowers wrote: "Negative characters, cheating, lying, bitterness - yes, this story has all of those things. However, underneath all that is a beautiful love story and even more beautiful wr..."I think you brought a great rebuttal to beautiful love story comment. Gatsby's love for her was something of beauty- he felt so much, yet Daisy poisoned the overall feeling for me. Great point on the idealistic love. Not only did I find it in the feelings, but the author set up the ideologies of upper class and showed the weaknesses throughout the characters.
fivesunflowers wrote: "Negative characters, cheating, lying, bitterness - yes, this story has all of those things. However, underneath all that is a beautiful love story and even more beautiful writing. Gatsby had his ..."I think you really nailed it by contrasting what the book has- negativity, yet this strong love that Gatsby feels. However, even that is strung into negativity because of the outcome and the lonely state Gatsby was really in despite the wealth. It has become one of my favorites too!
The book was meh for me. It's one of the very few times where I will say I prefer the film version to the novel.
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All of the others Daisy , Tom , Jordan , Myer Wolfsheim , the piano player who practically lived off Gatsby are all pretty much terrible people . I think that Fitzgerald through these characters raises some moral questions about the wrecklessness in which they lived their lives , about the decadence of the time . Gatsby's actions too are somewhat questionable - we never really know for sure what his line of work is - bootlegging or who knows. But Gatsby somehow for me is above it as is Nick.
It is a tribute to the great writing that some of you can like the book without liking the characters as Bette said .